"That's Iceland for you. One minute they're pinching our money, next minute they're cancelling our 'olidays!"
All flights in and out of the UK will be cancelled from midday to 1800BST as ash from a volcanic eruption in Iceland moves south.
I've just spotted this on the BBC webpageQuoteAll flights in and out of the UK will be cancelled from midday to 1800BST as ash from a volcanic eruption in Iceland moves south.
That's quite significant...
BBC's laging behind...
Radio news items suggest it's more about the ash fecking up the planes, than a visibility thing. Quite exciting though!
[still sunny here]
It's the end of the world.....
We're doomed I say, dooooomed :o
It's easy to see where they have closed the airspace.
http://www.flightradar24.com/ (http://www.flightradar24.com/)
Copenhagen and Stockholm will close within a couple of hours.
It's the end of the world.....
We're doomed I say, dooooomed :o
Nah. New Zealand deals with this on a fairly regular basis (my father used to tell an amusing story about being buried in his tent halfway up Mount Ruapehu after an ash eruption) - it's about taking sensible precautions, much as you might for a large chemical fire (think about Buncefield) or similar...
We must sacrifice Reg to our god!
It's easy to see where they have closed the airspace.
http://www.flightradar24.com/ (http://www.flightradar24.com/)
Copenhagen and Stockholm will close within a couple of hours.
Clarion stop trolling ;D
Doesn't work with NHS steam-powered browser.
Thursday night is usually rain given that I play 5-a-side football after work.
On one of the first Thursday evenings it is warm and sunny it threatens to 'rain' volcanic ash.
Sloblocks.
Shouldn't this topic be 'Volcano Grinds Planes'?
And: 'planes::-)
Doesn't work with NHS steam-powered browser.
It's slow to load & update for me, but it gets there. It may be rather over-subscribed just now...
It's fascinating seeing where planes are flying and where they're not.
It's easy to see where they have closed the airspace.
http://www.flightradar24.com/ (http://www.flightradar24.com/)
Copenhagen and Stockholm will close within a couple of hours.
Can't see it. :(
Doesn't work with NHS steam-powered browser.
I got an errol message.
...Liff.
Thursday night is usually rain given that I play 5-a-side football after work.
On one of the first Thursday evenings it is warm and sunny it threatens to 'rain' volcanic ash.
Sloblocks.
I thought that a sunny Elenith was too much to ask. The forecast was very good for Saturday.
The plume is so high that it will neither be visible nor pose a threat to the health of humans on the ground, although Dr Rothery added that we may have a "spectacularly red sunset" on Thursday evening.
Shouldn't this topic be 'Volcano Grinds Planes'?
TWF63 is a naughty plane probably just about to land in Southend (where it lives?)
Radio news items suggest it's more about the ash fecking up the planes, than a visibility thing. Quite exciting though!
[still sunny here]
If the trains are still running, it doesn't count as an apocalypse...
If the trains are still running, it doesn't count as an apocalypse...I'm sure that Bob Crow will find something in this... ;) ;D
...
From BBC News.QuoteThe plume is so high that it will neither be visible nor pose a threat to the health of humans on the ground, although Dr Rothery added that we may have a "spectacularly red sunset" on Thursday evening.
If the trains are still running, it doesn't count as an apocalypse...
I'm sure that Bob Crow will find something in this... ;) ;D
Radio news items suggest it's more about the ash fecking up the planes, than a visibility thing. Quite exciting though!
[still sunny here]
Cancelled my trip to Spain about 3 hours ago...
Means I can go to the pub now for my weekly beerage :thumbsup:
Radio news items suggest it's more about the ash fecking up the planes, than a visibility thing. Quite exciting though!
If the trains are still running, it doesn't count as an apocalypse...
Radio news items suggest it's more about the ash fecking up the planes, than a visibility thing. Quite exciting though!
[still sunny here]
Cancelled my trip to Spain about 3 hours ago...
Means I can go to the pub now for my weekly beerage :thumbsup:
You can ride to London, Cinderella!
TWF63 is a naughty plane probably just about to land in Southend (where it lives?)Low flying prop aeroplanes not as susceptible to high cruising jet engined aeroplanes?
who is going to TAX this volcanoe for it's carbon dioxode emmission?!! ANd the eco Fascists want to BAN us from driving a car but Icelnad is emiitting HUNDRDS times more than Britiain because of this volcaneo. Why can they get away with it? Becaue they are not in the European Union of socialism that taxes us thousands of pounds and NuLiebore lets them get away with it but not me. We should REFUSE TO PAY ALL TAXES until they make Iceland pay COMPENSATION for the canceled flights and the co2 emmitted, not that co2 has anything to do with global warming (sorry I mean climate change forgot they changed the name) because CLIMATE HAS ALWAYS BEEN CHANIGNG FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS which is why Iceland was once called Greenland and tehy had to change the name to Iceland when the climate got COLDER instead of WARMER totally disproving the SCAM that is AGW.
WAKE UP people!!!!!!! This volcanoe is yet another reason why Brown and LieBore must go. Only a vote for UKIP on 9th of May will end the scam and prvent Iceland and the EU from canceling even more flights.
So has the volcano stopped erupting/wind change predicted, because the officials seem fairly sure that flights will resume on the dot of 07.00 tomorrow?
POTD for Jaded :thumbsup:
Flights will remain grounded until at least 7 am UK time (http://www.nats.co.uk/) tomorrow at which time they'll advise what will apply up to 13:00.
Nothing stopping light aircraft though, provided you remain clear of controlled airspace by staying below a certain height, or clear of major airports. Below 10,000 ft anyway, I shouldn't think there'd be much if any effect on piston engines.
Flights will remain grounded until at least 7 am UK time (http://www.nats.co.uk/) tomorrow at which time they'll advise what will apply up to 13:00.
Nothing stopping light aircraft though, provided you remain clear of controlled airspace by staying below a certain height, or clear of major airports. Below 10,000 ft anyway, I shouldn't think there'd be much if any effect on piston engines.
Not sure about the last bit, Adam.
Our information is that all UK airspace is effectively closed. Even the air ambulances have been grounded. Only military aircraft are able to be used in extremis. Even the RAF Harrier Squadron at RAF Wittering has been grounded.
....
"no flights other than agreed emergencies are currently permitted in UK controlled airspace". Controlled airspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class) is basically major airports or airspace subject to ATC clearance such as control zones or airways plus anything above FL195.
They can't stop me flapping my wings.
TWF63 is a naughty plane probably just about to land in Southend (where it lives?)
I'm supposed to be flying to Beijing tomorrow (at 16:35) for a conference starting on Monday.
YACF poll as to whether you think I'll get there or not?
My current prediction: no.
I'm supposed to be flying to Beijing tomorrow (at 16:35) for a conference starting on Monday.
YACF poll as to whether you think I'll get there or not?
My current prediction: no.
Nope.We must sacrifice Reg to our god!
Will it be one of those pervy, sexual sacrificial ceremonies?
Please! :P
I'm supposed to be flying to Beijing tomorrow (at 16:35) for a conference starting on Monday.
YACF poll as to whether you think I'll get there or not?
My current prediction: no.
You'd better get the bike out now and start pedalling.
You gotta feel sorry for the plane spotters.Internet forums.
I mean, it must already be tough being spotty and the owner of multiple duffel bags.
Once you've knocked one out to the well thumbed pages of an Eye Spy book of Commercial Airliners - what is there to do with your day?
Or it could be because it's currently saying -
It's easy to see where they have closed the airspace.
http://www.flightradar24.com/ (http://www.flightradar24.com/)
Copenhagen and Stockholm will close within a couple of hours.
Can't see it. :(
Doesn't work with NHS steam-powered browser.
Users online: ≈Too many
Are we sure that this "volcano" story is not just a cover?
How do we now that rage infected monkeys haven't been released by animal rights activists?
Zombies.
Quarantine.
Either that or Gordon's got the Icelanders to stir the volcano up, so he can declare a state of emergency here, postpone the election and cling on desperately to power for a few more weeks... ;) ;D
Are we sure that this "volcano" story is not just a cover?
How do we now that rage infected monkeys haven't been released by animal rights activists?
Zombies.
Quarantine.
Either that or Gordon's got the Icelanders to stir the volcano up, so he can declare a state of emergency here, postpone the election and cling on desperately to power for a few more weeks... ;) ;D
A geophysicist in Iceland warned the chaos caused by ash drifting from the volcano under the Eyjafjallajokull glacier about 75 miles east of Reykjavik could cause trouble for days or weeks. "It is likely that the production of ash will continue at a comparable level for some days or weeks. But where it disrupts travel, that depends on the weather," said Einar Kjartansson, a geophysicist at the Icelandic Meteorological Office. "It depends how the wind carries the ash."Gruniad
Professor Bill McGuire, of the Aon Benfield Hazard Research Centre at University College London, said the previous eruption, in December 1821, lasted until January 1823.Teleg.
He said air travel could be curtailed repeatedly if the current eruption lasted the same amount of time.
The ironic thing is that the volcano has a bigger carbon foot print than the planes it has grounded.
The ironic thing is that the volcano has a bigger carbon foot print than the planes it has grounded.
It's only UK flights and for a short period so I bet the volcano wins.The ironic thing is that the volcano has a bigger carbon foot print than the planes it has grounded.
Maybe not. ISTR that the total CO2 output from Mt St Helens back in the '80s was about 1/100th of the current annual man-made CO2 emissions. I'll see if I can find a link.
I should have been on my way to LA this afternoon. Looks like I won't be flying for a few days. Last time this volcano erupted (1821), it kept going for over a year! That'll see me out of a job...
The ironic thing is that the volcano has a bigger carbon foot print than the planes it has grounded.
Are we sure that this "volcano" story is not just a cover?
Blimey, most of northern Europe and Russia is closed now! Oh, and apparently the last time this one erupted it went on for a year..
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
Laki (or Loki?. I forget) is said to have helped cause the French Rev (hard up peasants and riff raff causing trouble).Crops failed two years running IIRC due to cold wet summers.
So Clarion must love the prospect of another big Icelandic volcano.
Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Laki (or Loki?. I forget) is said to have helped cause the French Rev (hard up peasants and riff raff causing trouble).Laki, 1783-4. Killed about 25% of the population of Iceland, some directly (poisoning - fluorosis), more via the famine caused by pasture covered by ash, death of livestock (direct & due to starvation), then cold wet summers killing more livestock.
Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
We've got a couple of guys stuck offshore - technically the choppers can fly, but not if they need to rely only on their instruments. It's cloudy today up here, so no chopper flights.Our information is that all UK airspace is effectively closed. Even the air ambulances have been grounded. Only military aircraft are able to be used in extremis. Even the RAF Harrier Squadron at RAF Wittering has been grounded.Had a RAF chopper overhead at maybe 3-4pm. Are Chelithopters using the same rules? They stick pretty low round these parts.
4 engines though, and great range, plus stand off weapons.Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Tu-95 (Bear) are turbo prop though so would be subject to the same constraints as regular jets. Not sure that piston driven planes would be much better off.
4 engines though, and great range, plus stand off weapons.Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Tu-95 (Bear) are turbo prop though so would be subject to the same constraints as regular jets. Not sure that piston driven planes would be much better off.
They could always skirt round the cloud knowing any interceptors are going to have to make it to altitude in the cloud, 20'000 and you get all that crap.
They could also take off elsewhere, make altitude and fly above the cloud, thinking in 3 dimensions.
Not that I think the Ruskies would bomb us, but right now it would probably be easier for them. ;)
4 engines though, and great range, plus stand off weapons.Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Tu-95 (Bear) are turbo prop though so would be subject to the same constraints as regular jets. Not sure that piston driven planes would be much better off.
They could always skirt round the cloud knowing any interceptors are going to have to make it to altitude in the cloud, 20'000 and you get all that crap.
They could also take off elsewhere, make altitude and fly above the cloud, thinking in 3 dimensions.
Not that I think the Ruskies would bomb us, but right now it would probably be easier for them. ;)
Interceptors can still operate from low level though if necessary plus Skyflash has a range of 28 miles and can be deployed from as low as 100m so assuming that radar is working OK we're fairly safe from a diet of Borscht :)
At low level they stop being interceptors.4 engines though, and great range, plus stand off weapons.Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Tu-95 (Bear) are turbo prop though so would be subject to the same constraints as regular jets. Not sure that piston driven planes would be much better off.
They could always skirt round the cloud knowing any interceptors are going to have to make it to altitude in the cloud, 20'000 and you get all that crap.
They could also take off elsewhere, make altitude and fly above the cloud, thinking in 3 dimensions.
Not that I think the Ruskies would bomb us, but right now it would probably be easier for them. ;)
Interceptors can still operate from low level though if necessary plus Skyflash has a range of 28 miles and can be deployed from as low as 100m so assuming that radar is working OK we're fairly safe from a diet of Borscht :)
Borshch
I expect the sunset will look like the earth caught fire tonight.
:thumbsup:
It's dark cos it's night, and it's chilly cos there's a cold wind!It went very grey and very cold a few hours ago, you could see the swathe of grey coming in of the north sea but the sunset in the east was clear skies, there was a very sharp definition between the two.
It's dark cos it's night, and it's chilly cos there's a cold wind!
A piston engined plane is just as immune to dust as your car, because it breathes through an air filter.
The ever scientific-for-dummies BBC show updraft of the pyroclastic cloud from the caldera and then it being stripped away and carried south at 20'000
A piston engined plane is just as immune to dust as your car, because it breathes through an air filter.
That works till the filter's clogged. Then what? Park up while you clear the filter? Nope, don't think so! If there is indeed a problem with volcanic dust in UK (and I'm not convinced that we're not over-reacting due to our phenomenal ability to detect minute traces of the stuff, combined with the fact that Eurocontrol may be a tad over-sensitized having recently carried out a volcanic event exercise which involved closing European airspace), it could potentially affect any aircraft with an air-breathing internal combustion engine. That's everyone bar gliders, balloons, and rockets.
I'm due to fly out to Rome on Sunday morning
Can everyone keep their fingers crossed for me.
but the sunset in the east was clear skies, there was a very sharp definition between the two.
but the sunset in the east was clear skies, there was a very sharp definition between the two.
Aha! Confirmation, if needed, that Zoiders is on a different planet to the rest of us. ;)
Dyslexic moment.
but the sunset in the east was clear skies, there was a very sharp definition between the two.
Aha! Confirmation, if needed, that Zoiders is on a different planet to the rest of us. ;)
For some reason I feel the need to link to the Viking Kitten Imigrant Song but some git removed all the soundtrack from youtube.clicky (http://www.echelonrana.com/viking.html)
:'(
We haz volcano dust. A fine layer of pale grey stuff on cars, the dustbin, etc.
The trackless blue bowl of sky over Devon looks witchy and unfinished, slightly fake.
N95 / FFP2 should handle ash particles. In a heavy fall you'd want a full-on respirator 'cos of the sulphur fumes, but that won't apply to anyone who doesn't have a 40-a-day herring habit.
I'm supposed to be flying to Beijing tomorrow (at 16:35) for a conference starting on Monday.
YACF poll as to whether you think I'll get there or not?
My current prediction: no.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/YACF%20in%20the%20pub/12b20050.jpg)
HTH :)
Apparently it could get interesting if this eruption, wakes up big-daddy volcano under said glacier...
HTH :)
Looks like a bog standard respirator to me.
4 engines though, and great range, plus stand off weapons.Prop driven Russian bombers?
Anyhooo....if they can't operate jet aircraft what exactly are we doing for interception and defence in UK airspace right now?
::-)
What do you expect them to intercept?
Tu-95 (Bear) are turbo prop though so would be subject to the same constraints as regular jets. Not sure that piston driven planes would be much better off.
I blame Gordon Brown and New Labour.
All flights are only grounded under a Labour government - 9/11/2001 and now 15/4/10
;D
With apologies to Harold Wilson
Europeans rejoice as ‘Brits on the piss’ stuck in airport
THE continent of Europe has been celebrating tonight as thousands of beer-swilling fuckwits have been prevented from piling onto budget airline planes to embark on stupidly drunken stag and hen weekends.
"I noticed something tonight," said a relieved Milan Novacek as he walked around his eerily quiet bar in central Prague. "There was something missing. It was hard to put my finger on at first, but then I realised: no-one in a football shirt had launched into a rowdy chorus of LET'S GO TO A BROTHEL before throwing a beer glass in someone else's face and ending up in a bubbling pool of beery vomit and blood on the cobblestones.
"Sure, my takings are down 400%, but maybe it's worth it to have a night off. I had forgotten what this place smelled of without sick on the floor."
An immense cloud of spiralling evil volcanic sooty nonsense was farted out over Iceland on Monday morning, rendering Sky News into a right old tizzy, as if a few people not being able to go on holiday was like the Blitz or something, but at least providing a welcome clunking metaphor/simile for hard-working hacks in a hurry.
While continental Europe might be delirious with joy at the absence of boorish twats from Essex getting their cocks and arses out for the 900th time this evening, others were less pleased.
Ricky 'Rickyboy!' Smith, of Southend-on-Sea, spoke of his disappointment at not being able to 'get completely fucking wrecked, like me and the lads do every night anyway, but somewhere foreign'.
He said: "We were looking forward to really getting totally cunted on cheap lager and then maybe getting the clap off some ropey old prostitutes. It's my stag weekend, after all. But this fucking smelly cloud of shit from Iceland has fucked our plans right up. Now all we can do is get mullered in the departure lounge at Stansted and smash some stuff up here. But it's not the same vandalising British shops when we really want to be breaking some glass and having fights in another culture instead."
Conspiracy theorists have expressed dismay at not being able to find anything other than a perfectly rational explanation to the grounding of all of Britain's aircraft.
Mike Luni, from Andover, took time out from crying softly in his parents' spare bedroom to confirm that he was 'disappointed' by the lack of tinfoilhatness about the Icelandic emission.
He said: "Yes, I can confirm that despite everyone's best efforts, this is an entirely natural phenomenon and not some secret plot by the Zionist shapeshifting Illuminati to boil your babies alive.
"Which isn't to say that they wouldn't, given half a chance."
Apparently it could get interesting if this eruption, wakes up big-daddy volcano under said glacier...
If I remember the details correctly, the current Volcano has erupted four times in the last 1100 years, and on the first three of those it's been a precursor to Katla erupting. Katla is a bit bigger than the Eyjafjallajökull Volcano that we are dealing with the ash from at the moment.
I saw a little one engine prop plane fly over my home town last night;
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
Year Without a Summer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer)
*googles for canned food and shot guns*Year Without a Summer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer)
Don't like the sound of that!
*googles for extra large greenhouses*
Katla fatla. I'm waiting for Yellowstone to go up.
Katla fatla. I'm waiting for Yellowstone to go up
Volcanocam (http://eldgos.mila.is/eyjafjallajokull-fra-fimmvorduhalsi/)
Apparently. But then I don't speak Icelandic... ;)
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
You're unlikely to find canned shotguns. Even on the internet.I win the bet.
I saw a little one engine prop plane fly over my home town last night;Most of the dust is quite high up. If you stay low, you get less dust in the engine. Also, piston engines aren't affected much, compared to jets. Turboprops (like those FlyBe aircraft) are screwed, but quite a few small propellor-driven aircraft are piston-engined.
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
Sign of settlnig ash (apart from, well, the settling ash): it's smelly. Smells of rotten eggs 'cos of the sulphur and brimstone and dat.Heard from a bloke in the Orkneys last night. Stank up there, apparently. Sulphurous, & harsh on the eyes & throat. Nasty.
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
You're unlikely to find canned shotguns. Even on the internet.I win the bet.
http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/51340.jpg
Pay up.
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
Flybe use Dash-8 Turbo-props - the engines of which are basically small jet engines with propellers.
Propcycle for the win. :thumbsup:
does the dust only affect jets? if so why can't FlyBe and the BA Outer Hebrides planes etc operate?
Flybe use Dash-8 Turbo-props - the engines of which are basically small jet engines with propellers.
thanks; as are helicopter engines according to this; although I assume they are allowed to fly as they don't get up to the alititude where the ash is.
Engines (http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/StudentSite/engines.html)
I flew back from Amsterdam last year and was sitting next to an aviation expert; I asked him why an airliner would bother climbing all the way up to 35000 ft on such a short flight when as soon as it got up there it almost immediately started to descend,
he said it was due to the efficiency of modern jet engines and was a lot more economic than staying at a lower altitude even for a 40 minute flight; I had presumed that they had to be at cruising altitude in order to slot into the air traffic control that all the longer haul flights used.
That seems unlikely, given that the latest VAAC advisory graphic (http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271331761.png) predicts that the ash (at altitude) will cover the whole of northern Europe from the English channel northwards at 6am tomorrow.
It's probably more a case that they haven't decided to get around to cancelling those yet.
Think I'm going to write next week off, and book a flight direct from California to South of Spain (for my training camp, the week after :thumbsup:).
We dont live under a low level flight path, and this may just be my imagination, but I am enjoying what seems to be a much quieter enviroment. I hope this continues.
We dont live under a low level flight path, and this may just be my imagination, but I am enjoying what seems to be a much quieter enviroment. I hope this continues.
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
We dont live under a low level flight path, and this may just be my imagination, but I am enjoying what seems to be a much quieter enviroment. I hope this continues.
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
There was someone doing lesisurely aerobatics in a little private plane over here todayThere were a Robinson helicopter and a light aircraft stooging around over Gatwick yesterday
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
Now how can we get all the cars off the road for a few days as well.
Just looked at flight radar....something headed East from Aberdeen, but nothing else north of Spain
EDIT: The Scots one has vanished, must have been a glitch
Obligatory cycling angle:Obligatory silly cycling angle:
BBC Sport - Bradley Wiggins hit as ash cloud disrupts sport (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/8622315.stm)
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;DCross shipping by rope?
Just looked at flight radar....something headed East from Aberdeen, but nothing else north of Spain
EDIT: The Scots one has vanished, must have been a glitch
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;D
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;DSome ferries you ride a train on to. I've walked on to others. But yes, cycling has worked for me, on quite a few occasions, to a variety of destinations. I've been one of over 100 people cycling on to a ferry, more than once.
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;DSome ferries you ride a train on to. I've walked on to others. But yes, cycling has worked for me, on quite a few occasions, to a variety of destinations. I've been one of over 100 people cycling on to a ferry, more than once.
The ferry companies all seem quite used to it.
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;D
Yes, definitely. They make you walk onto the Stornoway ferry as the metal plates can be lethally slippery with water and diesel.
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;D
Yes, definitely. They make you walk onto the Stornoway ferry as the metal plates can be lethally slippery with water and diesel.
I'm sure I've cycled on and off the Stornoway ferry. They won't let you ride on or off the ferries between Belfast & Liverpool, bikes go on a special luggage trailer and you are taken to the ferry in a minibus.
Er, we always cycle on to and off from ferries. Is there any other way? ;D
Yes, definitely. They make you walk onto the Stornoway ferry as the metal plates can be lethally slippery with water and diesel.
Not everything is grounded.
A helicopter and a light aircraft came over Chester this morning, not very high and presumably piston engined.
We're worried that there's going to be a shortage of baby sweetcorns imported by air from Thailand.
They are running approved flights (above 500') along the runway. Had a formation of Tiger Moths....Not everything is grounded.
A helicopter and a light aircraft came over Chester this morning, not very high and presumably piston engined.
I saw two light aircraft fly over Gatwick, presumably taking the opportunity, this afternoon.
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidised industries in the UK, and around the world. A few of them going bust will be no loss to the majority of people and we will get a few planes out of circulation permenantly which can't be a bad thing. Less noise, less polution, less money coming out of the tax payers coffers.
Of course there is also a human cost if an airline goes bust and people loose their jobs. Welcome to the real world where this happens to people every day in all sorts of industies. I've been made redundant 5 times in the past 20 years. Crap happens to all of us all the time but we just get on with life as well.
We dont live under a low level flight path, and this may just be my imagination, but I am enjoying what seems to be a much quieter enviroment. I hope this continues.
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
And that's before the stranded passengers all start exercising their rights to refunds and compensation under EU Regs 261 and 264. I can see several carriers going to the wall because of this :(.
I can see refunds, I can't see them getting compensation.
Do the airlines have insurance against this sort of thing ? Does travel insurance cover it ?
There has been no neglect or deliberate poor service on the part of the airlines, it's a frikin volcano.
If they should fail to take care of someone properly due to them being stranded then yes they will get shafted.There has been no neglect or deliberate poor service on the part of the airlines, it's a frikin volcano.
This is what the airlines are saying; however the new regs are, at they stand, it would appear, against them. But note that I am not an expert on the matter!!
In any case the cost to the economy is going to be very significant; and to a sector in difficulty something they don't need.
Around half a million people directly or indirectly employed by aviation in UK are fervently hoping it doesn't go on long. At a cost of £200m a day, just in UK, there are several businesses in aviation already looking shaky. The cash outflow right now is horrendous, and it will get worse. It may well see more than one airline closed permanently.
The airline industry is one of the most heavily subsidised industries in the UK, and around the world. A few of them going bust will be no loss to the majority of people and we will get a few planes out of circulation permenantly which can't be a bad thing. Less noise, less polution, less money coming out of the tax payers coffers.
Really? You are referring, I assume, to the fact that aviation fuel isn't taxed. You're right, it's not. When international aviation treaties were negotiated, no workable method could be found of applying tax evenly worldwide. That is, if you like, a failure of politics, not some subversive trickery of the industry. I'd love you to show me in what other way the industry is 'subsidised'. There are no grants, no other tax breaks, nothing. And extra tax is levied, over and above all normal taxes, directly on the airlines for each ticket sold.QuoteOf course there is also a human cost if an airline goes bust and people loose their jobs. Welcome to the real world where this happens to people every day in all sorts of industies. I've been made redundant 5 times in the past 20 years. Crap happens to all of us all the time but we just get on with life as well.
Are you trying to suggest that the airline industry is immune to economics, and doesn't see companies go bust? Can I refer you to the 40-odd airlines that have gone bust over the last 18 months? Don't tell me to get real - many of my friends are unemployed now, and some will remain so for a very long time. Many will have to move a long way away from UK to get another job. Many will have double your number of redundancies. Airlines are amongst the least secure employers, especially in UK where there are no, repeat no, government-subsidised companies.
If they should fail to take care of someone properly due to them being stranded then yes they will get shafted.There has been no neglect or deliberate poor service on the part of the airlines, it's a frikin volcano.
This is what the airlines are saying; however the new regs are, at they stand, it would appear, against them. But note that I am not an expert on the matter!!
In any case the cost to the economy is going to be very significant; and to a sector in difficulty something they don't need.
The fact that they were stranded in the fist place though is not something they should be compensated for beyond a refund of the fare.
Pictures have surfaced of turbine blades from Finnish air force F-18s which were in the air when the ash drifted over Finland. They're damaged, but not dangerously so. BUT - these were F404 military turbofans, with a bypass ratio of ca 0.35:1, meaning most of the air (& ash) going into them went through the core. A civil turbofan has a much higher bypass ratio, typically over 5:1, & most of the air - and even more the ash (I'm informed, I think reliably, that the ash, particularly the heavier particles, will tend to go into the bypass air rather than through the core) will therefore not go into the core. This is important: the main source of damage to jet engines from volcanic ash is it melting in the hot core, & being deposited on critical parts such as turbine blades. Ash in bypass air is relatively harmless.
My informant, a former Rolls-Royce engineer (proper one: Masters degree in it 'n all), thinks that the grounding is an overreaction. He doesn't believe the ash cloud is dense enough to be dangerous. Mildly damaging, possibly causing long-term costs to airliners in engines with degraded efficiency unless they have expensive rebuilds, but not dangerous, not like the dense ash clouds which have shut down airliner engines in the past. He thinks it's 'Elf 'n Safety gorn mad . . . (not his choice of words).
*watches on as this plays out like every other precautionary everything, ever*
The Gubbermint has suggested that the Navy may help with the repatriation of Brits stuck abroad...The Tartan Army chartered a submarine to get to Mexico in 1970 - maybe the Navy could borrow that.
Has anyone told them that the Navy doesn't actually really have any suitable ships left? They've been asking for new ones for years but a certain Chancellor kept saying 'no' because he didn't think there was any need for large surface ships... ::-)
Do people think that the flight bans are looking over-cautious? One wonders if economic pressures with override any precautionary principles involving the ash danger. Apparently some airlines have done test flights.
I'd rather an 'overreaction' which is speculation albeit perhaps informed, than a few airliners dropping out of the sky. The very reason that air travel is so 'safe' is purely because risks are not taken.
The subsidies are not direct but they still boil down to a subsidy that other competing industries like the train companies and ferry companies do not benefit from.
It won’t be a volcano that ends man’s existence on this planet. It’ll be the no-win no-fee lawyers. They are the ones who brought Europe to a halt last week. They are the ones who made a simple trip from Berlin to London into a five-country, all-day hammer blow on your licence fee. They are the ones who must be stopped.
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying... They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash. Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.
Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.
It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.
Apparently the last time this volcano erupted, in the 70's, it went on for 6 months. The thing is, there were plenty of planes flying across Europe in those days too, so how come we didn't have this outcome then ?
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath. Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.Wildly OT, but which campsite ?
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying... They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash. Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.
Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.
For once I was impressed by the BBC newsreader. He pulled the FlyBe boss apart on this. 'You sent your plane into a gap in the clouds. BA and Lufthansa flew planes under the cloud. Noone knows how the cloud shifts and you could end up flying into a gap that closes on you as plane radar cannot detect the ash clouds and you end up in a dense patch of ash. What happens then?'
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath. Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.Wildly OT, but which campsite ?
I'd rather an 'overreaction' which is speculation albeit perhaps informed, than a few airliners dropping out of the sky. The very reason that air travel is so 'safe' is purely because risks are not taken.
I'd rather a safety grounding than a flight path going down with the loss of plane after plane.
Wonder at the fact that all your holiday jets are now flown by American airlines, 'cos there's no British ones left.
Cool ! That must have been fantastically peaceful as compared to normal.I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath. Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.Wildly OT, but which campsite ?
Not a campsite as such. We were with the Surrey DA of the Camping & Caravanning Club at Blacklands Farm, a Girl Guide activity centre above Weir Wood Reservoir, near East Grinstead.
Jeremy knows why ;)
Hounded by the ash cloud on my escape from Colditz to Blighty | Jeremy Clarkson - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/jeremy_clarkson/article7100772.ece)QuoteIt won’t be a volcano that ends man’s existence on this planet. It’ll be the no-win no-fee lawyers. They are the ones who brought Europe to a halt last week. They are the ones who made a simple trip from Berlin to London into a five-country, all-day hammer blow on your licence fee. They are the ones who must be stopped.
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying... They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash. Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.
Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.
For once I was impressed by the BBC newsreader. He pulled the FlyBe boss apart on this. 'You sent your plane into a gap in the clouds. BA and Lufthansa flew planes under the cloud. Noone knows how the cloud shifts and you could end up flying into a gap that closes on you as plane radar cannot detect the ash clouds and you end up in a dense patch of ash. What happens then?'
Well briefed and good questioning.
Wonder at the fact that all your holiday jets are now flown by American airlines, 'cos there's no British ones left.
Alternatively, curse yourself and your media and your fellow passengers for demanding stupidly low prices that then created an unsustainable level of flying?
And for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.
I bet pprune (http://www.pprune.org/) is busy.
*checks*
Yup :D
No-one (or no-one sensible) is arguing for a precipitate and 'brave' rewriting of the current advice. But it has become blindingly obvious that the current advice has not kept up with the technology for detecting what that advice applies to! The situation has not previously arisen in such a densly-aviated area, and now a great many people are going back to their desks to determine what exactly they want that advice to mean, how it should be framed and defined, and how it should accommodate ever more capable detection technology.
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?
The volcano has exposed how perilous some business plans are?
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?
The volcano has exposed how perilous some business plans are? Although to be fair, we do already know that from the number of failures of airlines.
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying... They've sent up empty planes and declared that they came back "without a scratch". The Germans and the Dutch are spearheading this little campaign and putting pressure on their various air safety agencies. :facepalm:
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash. Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.
Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.
So they are all going to go bust then ???
Apparently (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/stranded_monty_python_legend_john_iOhNOEev2Ny3aVKSDTOzDM), John Cleese paid 30,000 kroner (about £3.3k) for a Noggy taxi to take him from Oslo to Brussels where he had a Eurostar seat home booked. I have visions of him reprising the role of headmaster Mr Stimpson from Clockwise...
So not all then.
Possibly the ones with weaker business, possibly the ones benefitting most from the relative unsustainability of current flying? Like I said up thread?
I'm pretty sure a robust business ought to handle a week of outage. Unless its contingency pot had been strip-mined for profits...
I'm pretty sure a robust business ought to handle a week of outage. Unless its contingency pot had been strip-mined for profits...
We recently have done an analysis of our model.
If all money stops today, in our current situation we can survive for 3 months with no revenue before we go to the wall.
Back in the Bad Old Days we were running about 1 week from failure and we only survived because my boss propped the company up using his personal savings to pay our wages and keep the lights on. Fortunately he only had to do that once, because he couldn't do it twice.
For a company the size of BA to last three months without revenue, it would probably require something in the region of £5 billion in liquidity. There is no way its accountants would sanction that amount of static capital. Like most airlines, it will have few saleable assets - all its aeroplanes and properties will be leased.
With finite fuel supplies comes risk. Make the money now before we are all grounded in 50-100 years time.
for some bizarre reason we have never properly assessed and quantified the effects and risks of volcanic debris.Tim, it is interesting that that hasn't been done - given the BA 747 that nearly crashed 18 years ago, several other incidents and the air industry's exceptional approach to safety.
MV, actually there are several Plans B (and on...), but no-one anticipated the current convergence of inadequate regulation, inadequate research and excess risk-aversion!
for some bizarre reason we have never properly assessed and quantified the effects and risks of volcanic debris.Tim, it is interesting that that hasn't been done - given the BA 747 that nearly crashed 18 years ago, several other incidents and the air industry's exceptional approach to safety.
Any theories as to why that might be?
Let's get a measure of realism about this rather than it turning into a blame game.
Forget the business model. Who has the hubris of a banker to send planes full of people up?
MV, actually there are several Plans B (and on...), but no-one anticipated the current convergence of inadequate regulation, inadequate research and excess risk-aversion!
Of course. Otherwise it would have been factored in. No matter what you plan for as realistic risk, something will bite you. If you have a business model that falls over with 10 days of inactivity, then in the long run you're dead. If you don't, then in the short term you're likely also dead of course ;)
Let's get a measure of realism about this rather than it turning into a blame game.
Firstly, we know what the ash can do to a jet engine: We also know that it might be possible to restart the engines in certain circumstances, but, there is no guaranteed formula to allow this.
Secondly, we know that the effect of nature, an ongoing volcanic eruption and weather conditions causing the distribution of said ash suspended in the atmosphere at a level where commercial airliners normally fly.
Thirdly, we don't know exactly where and when the ash might exist because it is invisible to the naked eye, and to the equipment carried on commercial airliners, making it impossible for a crew to spot and avoid.
Forget the business model. Who has the hubris of a banker to send planes full of people up? It seems to me that the risk assessment, something that the airline industry normally claims that they are incredibly strong on, has been well made. I certainly wouldn't want to send up hundreds of aircraft full of people if I couldn't be sure of their safety. Businessmen are worried about money. I'm far more concerned about the value of life.
Firstly, we know what the ash can do to a jet engine:
Firstly, we know what the ash can do to a jet engine:
This is the weak point. We know what high concentrations of ash can do - but we don't know for sure the effects of low concentrations such as those over us right now.
Let's get a measure of realism about this rather than it turning into a blame game.
etc...
At the moment, we are biasing our reaction to the 'completely unsafe' case - but we do not have, or cannot demonstrate, the evidence to say why.
Without that evidence, we might just as well give up flying because it can never, ever be assessed as safe.
Firstly, we know what the ash can do to a jet engine:
This is the weak point. We know what high concentrations of ash can do - but we don't know for sure the effects of low concentrations such as those over us right now.
Tim - how are your Procedure Manuals worded? Is the prune posting accurate - in implying that the wording states you should avoid flying into a "known area" of volcanic dust? If that's the case, then it's pretty cut and dried - even if the airspace was open; the SigWx charts would show the area of volcanic dust, which you cannot enter, which would effectively stop you flying, no?
Well, there is a difference between allowing loads of flights through a known volcanic cloud and everyday flying. If we're sure that the cloud conditions are not significantly different from normal flight then there'd be no problem. But I'm not sure that we are...
For a company the size of BA to last three months without revenue, it would probably require something in the region of £5 billion in liquidity. There is no way its accountants would sanction that amount of static capital. Like most airlines, it will have few saleable assets - all its aeroplanes and properties will be leased. ...The problem with that theory is that someone, somewhere, has to do what you say the accountants won't sanction, or there won't be any physical assets. Someone has to own them.
Yes, & we know that perception is false. The two Finnish air force F-18s previously referred to did not suffer flame-outs, & are probably more prone to engine damage than airliners, due to the low bypass ratio of their engines. But they were damaged -Let's get a measure of realism about this rather than it turning into a blame game.
etc...
Our problem is the perception that any exposure to volcanic debris is inevitably going to result in engine flame-outs and the loss of any aircraft that flies near it. That perception is informed only by the experience of BA009 and the KLM flight, both of which flew (at night) into the visible plumes of active volcanoes around which there were no avoidance areas.
Yes, & we know that perception is false. The two Finnish air force F-18s previously referred to did not suffer flame-outs, & are probably more prone to engine damage than airliners, due to the low bypass ratio of their engines. But they were damaged -Let's get a measure of realism about this rather than it turning into a blame game.
etc...
Our problem is the perception that any exposure to volcanic debris is inevitably going to result in engine flame-outs and the loss of any aircraft that flies near it. That perception is informed only by the experience of BA009 and the KLM flight, both of which flew (at night) into the visible plumes of active volcanoes around which there were no avoidance areas.
Well, the way aircraft leasing is growing, you may just be premature. ;D
And so we go on. How safe does something have to be to be declared acceptable? We have been flying through this stuff for many years, but our detection technology wasn't sufficient to show it. However, our maintenace regime was entirely adequate to cope with it, and is constantly improving, to the extent that we now get up to 35,000 hours out of our engines 'on the wing'. But now we can see more stuff, so we're going to avoid stuff that previously we couldn't see. To what benefit?
*watches on as this plays out like every other precautionary everything, ever*
The two Finnish air force F-18s previously referred to did not suffer flame-outs, & are probably more prone to engine damage than airliners, due to the low bypass ratio of their engines. But they were damaged -
Pictures of their engines -
(http://wsmweather.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FinnishF18_1.jpg)
(http://wsmweather.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FinnishF18_2.jpg)
The two Finnish air force F-18s previously referred to did not suffer flame-outs, [...]. But they were damaged -
Pictures of their engines -
(http://wsmweather.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FinnishF18_1.jpg)
(http://wsmweather.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/FinnishF18_2.jpg)
Nevertheless, the essentail point remains: airlines do not keep very large amounts of liquid capital that can finance extended periods of non-operation.
That's £2.1bn for BA. At £20m a day that's about 100 days.
Other airlines may not be so lucky...
Can the EU support all its airlines?
Quite a few 'planes in the air in Europe now.
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/fr_20100419_1349.jpg)
(Snapshot taken at 13:49 on 19th April 2010.)
I've seen a few of these snapshots - what are the blue crosses?
And so we go on. How safe does something have to be to be declared acceptable? We have been flying through this stuff for many years, but our detection technology wasn't sufficient to show it. However, our maintenace regime was entirely adequate to cope with it, and is constantly improving, to the extent that we now get up to 35,000 hours out of our engines 'on the wing'. But now we can see more stuff, so we're going to avoid stuff that previously we couldn't see. To what benefit?
Are you suggesting that it's perfectly safe to fly absolutely anywhere* at the moment ?
If you have the data to show that then hey, ho off we go. If not then I'm not sure what else we can expect but a precautionary approach.*watches on as this plays out like every other precautionary everything, ever*
Indeed.
*edit: OK, you know what i mean. It's never "perfectly" safe but the risk is usually... yadda yadda yadda. Can you show that any risk is within what's deemed acceptable to those who would fly and those who would insure the airlines ? ie there's no significant extra risk due to the cloud ?
This picture (http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1004/icevolcano_fulle_big.jpg) is more fun!
Well, have had alert to possible opening tomorrow afternoon.
Dr Guy Gratton from the Facility for Airborne Atmospheric Measurements based at Cranfield, said, 'Speaking as an aeronautical engineer, I wouldn't want to be putting a big aeroplane up in that at the moment.'
This picture (http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1004/icevolcano_fulle_big.jpg) is more fun!
I haz new desktop.
However, I note from that link:Quote from: NERCDr Guy Gratton from the Facility for Airborne Atmospheric Measurements based at Cranfield, said, 'Speaking as an aeronautical engineer, I wouldn't want to be putting a big aeroplane up in that at the moment.'
Iceland Meteorological office - Earthquakes Mýrdalsjökull, Iceland (http://en.vedur.is/earthquakes-and-volcanism/earthquakes/myrdalsjokull/)
Iceland Met Office page for Eyja, Hekla to the north and Katla under the big glacier centre south. If the large ladies are going to blow, there'll usually be quake bursts beforehand.
# The last Icelandic Earthquake eruption lasted for two years in 1823. History books talk about several time getting clouds of dust in Europe and Iceland. People attributed it to the earthquakes.http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978181994
# The Earthquake plumes of ash can be seen as far away as the International Space Station.
Are the passengers still there or have you been riding your bike around an empty concourse in the post apocalyptic "do as you like" stylee?There have been almost none about, but seemed a very few more yesterday. Will see at 1500 hrs today
Hmmmm.... NATS rolls back plans to reopen British airspace as there is another cloud on its way.
And the NERC / Met Office have been giving greater detail of the ash layers they've been finding.... and they're where they were predicted to be. Seems the airlines' suggestions that the scientists were being 'purely theoretical' is blown out of the water...
Hmmmm.... NATS rolls back plans to reopen British airspace as there is another cloud on its way.
And the NERC / Met Office have been giving greater detail of the ash layers they've been finding.... and they're where they were predicted to be. Seems the airlines' suggestions that the scientists were being 'purely theoretical' is blown out of the water...
Lufthansa have been talking up the chances of flying into the UK for a day or so, my boss was on standby for a flight at about noon which they just cancelled. Seem to be a lot more positive about it than most, perhaps it's a Swiss thing..
Hmmmm.... NATS rolls back plans to reopen British airspace as there is another cloud on its way.
And the NERC / Met Office have been giving greater detail of the ash layers they've been finding.... and they're where they were predicted to be. Seems the airlines' suggestions that the scientists were being 'purely theoretical' is blown out of the water...
Hmmmm.... NATS rolls back plans to reopen British airspace as there is another cloud on its way.
And the NERC / Met Office have been giving greater detail of the ash layers they've been finding.... and they're where they were predicted to be. Seems the airlines' suggestions that the scientists were being 'purely theoretical' is blown out of the water...
It would seem that the current eruption is of lower intensity and contains far less ice than the earlier ones. The presence of ice is apparently critical in the propensity of the dust to cause damage at concentrations that aren't visible. It is likely that the resurgent plume can be treated as would that of any volcano not contained under an ice cap, which may make life a little simpler! However, we'll have to wait and see.
Reg, I rather resent your implication that the airlines play fast and loose with safety. It's no accident that flying is by far the safest mode of travel; we spend inordinate amounts of time, effort and money ensuring safety. Passengers' confidence is absolutely essential, or we don't have a business.
But we know a great deal more about our machinery than politicians do, and we are not going to let them shut us down without attempting to make our case.
a 4 engined plane has just gone over Gatwick heading SW; I would guess about 20000 ft
a 4 engined plane has just gone over Gatwick heading SW; I would guess about 20000 ft
Whilst I feel very sorry for all the disruption the volcano has caused....
... the joy and tranquillity of living under quiet skies in London W4 cannot be overstated .
No planes in the sky, lovely sunny days, and Chris Moyles thousands of miles away. Or returning to normal. It's a poser, isn't it?
*Bzzzzzzzzz...* Straw man! This is nothing to do with politicians. The closure of air space has been undertaken by the various national aviation authorities - the aviation safety experts - not by politicians.
*Bzzzzzzzzz...* Straw man! This is nothing to do with politicians. The closure of air space has been undertaken by the various national aviation authorities - the aviation safety experts - not by politicians.
Whatever, Reg. You know best.
Two contrails seen over Oxford just now. We were up on the roof taking coffee and everyone stopped talking and stared skywards. Like the coming of the rapture.
I was with you there. I stopped and pointed out of the office window :-[
They may well be. I can't comment, as we have no twin-engined aeroplanes. Yet.Aha! Now I know who you work for. I've been on your A340s, & I should be again in July & August (ash permitting), though we bought our tickets from ANA. Well, it says the flight will be on A346, & ANA is all Boeing. So there's no chance that Mrs Bs cousin the ANA pilot will be flying us. :(
Flight radar has had a steady stream of Lufthansa and KLM flights heading to points West - US and Caribbean mostly.
*Bzzzzzzzzz...* Straw man! This is nothing to do with politicians. The closure of air space has been undertaken by the various national aviation authorities - the aviation safety experts - not by politicians.
Whatever, Reg. You know best.
OK then Tim... which politicians are you suggesting are responsible for closing the air space?
As all modes of travel overseas are private concerns why should the government have a contingency plan to cater for that? If your car breaks down how do you make that essential journey? If anybody should have contingency plans it should be the private concerns involved.
It depends on the numbers involved.
Past a certain point and it stops being a commercial problem of private companies and becomes a humanitarian and civil emergency that is indeed the remit of the government when British subjects are involved.
It does not matter how they were stranded there, if the numbers are great enough there is a duty to act.
Good luck on this occasion then.It depends on the numbers involved.
Past a certain point and it stops being a commercial problem of private companies and becomes a humanitarian and civil emergency that is indeed the remit of the government when British subjects are involved.
It does not matter how they were stranded there, if the numbers are great enough there is a duty to act.
Yeah - but the gubbermint will still charge you for repatriation...
Good luck on this occasion then.It depends on the numbers involved.
Past a certain point and it stops being a commercial problem of private companies and becomes a humanitarian and civil emergency that is indeed the remit of the government when British subjects are involved.
It does not matter how they were stranded there, if the numbers are great enough there is a duty to act.
Yeah - but the gubbermint will still charge you for repatriation...
They have precisely bob hope of pulling that little trick off, too many people involved.
They should have, in conjunction with Spanish authorities, airlines, and other vested interests, sent out a general announcement - "Stranded Brits - get yourselves to Santander, and we'll send a fuck off fleet of ferries/ships to get you FOC".
Being stuck in another country that has food, shelter and bars but no copies of today's Daily Mail is a humanitarian crisis, isn't it? ???It will be when they start to run out of money.
Not every person has x grand of savings.
Or it could be that not being one of the baby boomers that hog up all the national wealth - you had to scrape together a few hundred quid for a last minute flight to cheap resort in spain.Not every person has x grand of savings.
Nope, because they have spent it all on going on holiday to a relatively expensive destination. ;)
Ah, budget travel for the masses. Travel is too cheap and folk simply believe that they have a right to travel. They do, and they have a responsibility to be able to look after themselves too.It was a volcano.
Or it could be that not being one of the baby boomers that hog up all the national wealth - you had to scrape together a few hundred quid for a last minute flight to cheap resort in spain.Not every person has x grand of savings.
Nope, because they have spent it all on going on holiday to a relatively expensive destination. ;)
You are now not getting paid by work.
It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.A lot of people have them.
It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
The media reports seem to forget that there are pretty strict rules in Europe on the responsibilities of the airline in situations like this:-Ryanair is, of course, complaining that it isn't fair, saying that it shouldn't have to pay out lots of money for someone who's paid very little for their ticket.
BBC News - Iceland volcano: Air passenger rights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8621779.stm)
That article also touches on the employment law aspects.
It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
I do hope this provokes some people into thinking about whether their journey was really necessary.
Been off for a holiday in the sun? I was in the sunshine all weekend in flippin' Sussex, and the quality of life was vastly improved because no dumbasses were in a tube going elsewhere.
It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
Ryanair is, of course, complaining that it isn't fair, saying that it shouldn't have to pay out lots of money for someone who's paid very little for their ticket.
They just opened all uK airports.
Is there a fundamental reason insurance companies won't cover this sort of event? Or is it that no one would be willing to pay the premiums?It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
most people purchase "contingency resources" in the form of travel insurance; it's hardly their fault that due to the nature of the grounding this is currently no use to them
Is there a fundamental reason insurance companies won't cover this sort of event? Or is it that no one would be willing to pay the premiums?It doesn't really matter how you got there or if you're loaded or not. It's stupendously irresponsible to go travelling without contingency resources.
most people purchase "contingency resources" in the form of travel insurance; it's hardly their fault that due to the nature of the grounding this is currently no use to them
I hope there isn't some kind of um... "incident". The shit would royally hit the fan.
Is there a fundamental reason insurance companies won't cover this sort of event? Or is it that no one would be willing to pay the premiums?
Essentially, yes, it would be impractically expensive to cover the extremely-low-probability, extremely-high-cost events. In order to have the necessary cash to cover the payouts, insurance companies would have to hold much larger amounts in reserve, which they would have to get from higher premiums.
Essentially, yes, it would be impractically expensive to cover the extremely-low-probability, extremely-high-cost events. In order to have the necessary cash to cover the payouts, insurance companies would have to hold much larger amounts in reserve, which they would have to get from higher premiums.
What is insurance for though?
Apparently there's a much bigger volcano next door, underneath a glacier, with a track record of erupting vastly every 100 years or so. It last went up in 1918, apparently...
Hmmmm... media now suggesting that airlines have put pressure on Government to open the skies.
The comments of Willie Walsh and the Twat from LyingAir (along the lines of "We're losing money - 'snot fair! The Government are big meanies and totally incompetent") would appear to give credence to this suggestion. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267597/Iceland-volcano-eruption-British-airspace-reopened-BA-flight-lands-Heathrow.html)
I think the fallout (no pun intended) from this will linger for a while.
Did anyone see the Icelandic prime minister on the television yesterday?
Apparently there's a much bigger volcano next door, underneath a glacier, with a track record of erupting vastly every 100 years or so. It last went up in 1918, apparently...
Apparently there's a much bigger volcano next door, underneath a glacier, with a track record of erupting vastly every 100 years or so. It last went up in 1918, apparently...
most people purchase "contingency resources" in the form of travel insurance; it's hardly their fault that due to the nature of the grounding this is currently no use to them
Apparently there's a much bigger volcano next door, underneath a glacier, with a track record of erupting vastly every 100 years or so. It last went up in 1918, apparently...
Katla, first brought up in the thread five pages back. It erupts something like every 40-80 years. On the three previous occasions (in the last 1100 years) that Eyjafjallajökull has erupted, it has been followed by Katla. Of course that isn't a terribly good statistical population, so I wouldn't be popping down the bookies quite yet.
An interesting article from the Grauniad:
Why airlines resisted setting safe dust level for flights – until now (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/21/airlines-flights-ban-airspace)
However, an aerospace industry source told the Guardian that any attempt to blame aircraft and engine makers was "passing the buck".
Recent events have made me question the point of travel insurance, at least within Europe where you are covered by the EU health scheme thingie. There is so much that isn't covered, terrorism (whatever that is), 'acts of god' (surely an unexpected event is EXACTLY what insurance is for otherwise it would have been an event you knew about which they then would say was a 'material non-disclosure' and wouldn't pay out anyway!).
most people purchase "contingency resources" in the form of travel insurance; it's hardly their fault that due to the nature of the grounding this is currently no use to them
Obviosuly further afield, and places where medical treatment is very expensive, then it is worth it, but in Europe? I don't think so.
Recent events have made me question the point of travel insurance, at least within Europe where you are covered by the EU health scheme thingie. There is so much that isn't covered, terrorism (whatever that is), 'acts of god' (surely an unexpected event is EXACTLY what insurance is for ...
Has anyone seen any reports of the plight of travellers from Abroadland stuck in UK? ...
I would hope that airlines have a set of procedures for possible ash ingestion, similar to, but more detailed than what was in that article. I would really hope that any aircraft currently flying around the area that was closed (and which could be closed again in the event of another eruption) have such a procedure now. :-\
the decisicion to send Navy ships was questioned too.
I am led to believe they picked up Boris Johnson & brought him back.
I don't think that's reasonable ;D
I see that Ryan Air are busy ensuring that none of their stranded passengers ever, ever, ever use them again.
I see that Ryan Air are busy ensuring that none of their stranded passengers ever, ever, ever use them again.
They know how to win friends and influence people, don't they? But they have a serious point - if it's legal for the insurance companies to wash their hands of any liability because this is an 'act of God', how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses? There is an inconsistency here which needs addressing. If travel insurers aren't willing to accept their liabilities, then maybe it's time to cut them out of the loop and apply the travel insurance premium to the flight ticket...
how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses?
There is an inconsistency here which needs addressing. If travel insurers aren't willing to accept their liabilities, then maybe it's time to cut them out of the loop and apply the travel insurance premium to the flight ticket...
There is an inconsistency here which needs addressing. If travel insurers aren't willing to accept their liabilities, then maybe it's time to cut them out of the loop and apply the travel insurance premium to the flight ticket...
Johnson Senior and a bunch of civilians (including a kids' footy team with a broken-legged player) managed to blag spare space on Albion. They were in cabins, so the space must have been spare; a nice blag, that.
More than a little humbling, I'd imagine. I'd rather walk back from Spain than take a soldier's bed.
...Ryanair, OTOH, are proposing to act outside the law. Ryanair should have read the legal framework within which they are operating. Of course, by not reading it (or by understanding it and hoping it would not happen or that they could con(vince) the tax payer to foot the bill), Ryanair was able to make shed loads of cash selling tickets for 20 euros.Ryanair really, really, can't & won't do it. On their own website is this little beauty, under which they set out what, under EU law, they are required to do -
More than a little humbling, I'd imagine. I'd rather walk back from Spain than take a soldier's bed.From the pictures on the news, it looked as if a lot of the civilians were on camp beds on the vehicle deck. Perhaps the cabins were reserved for the more fragile, e.g. the boy with the broken leg, & maybe the elderly.
...Ryanair, OTOH, are proposing to act outside the law. Ryanair should have read the legal framework within which they are operating. Of course, by not reading it (or by understanding it and hoping it would not happen or that they could con(vince) the tax payer to foot the bill), Ryanair was able to make shed loads of cash selling tickets for 20 euros.Ryanair really, really, can't & won't do it. On their own website is this little beauty, under which they set out what, under EU law, they are required to do -
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/faqs/EU261_EN.pdf (http://www.ryanair.com/doc/faqs/EU261_EN.pdf)
I can see how they can wriggle out of paying any compensation (circumstances beyond their control), but their passengers still have the 'Right to care'. I'm sure that any court would take an exceedingly dim view of Mr. O'Leary & his minions trying to simultaneously break both the law, & their own contracts (anything like that on their website forms part of those contracts) with their customers. And I'm sure that Charlotte is right, & some of those disgruntled travellers would take Ryanair to court.
Looks like they've backed down BBC News - Volcano ash: Ryanair backs down over expenses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8636944.stm) :thumbsup:
Looks like they've backed down BBC News - Volcano ash: Ryanair backs down over expenses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8636944.stm) :thumbsup:
And in the process got far more publicity than any other airline. They've been able to push their mesage of low fares without spending a penny in advertising.
An RAF jet has been affected. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8637978.stm)You've been reading the Wail too much ;)
Training flights on RAF Typhoons in Lincolnshire have been suspended after ash deposits were found in one aircraft's engines.So it's only been affected in as much as my car has i.e. there's some ash on it :P
An RAF spokesman said the Typhoons were "very high performance jets" so staff were "just being extra cautious".
how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses?
Because it's the law?
how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses?
Because it's the law?
I'm well aware of that, and it is, or was, only Ryanair that was stirring things by suggesting they might not pay - which may well have been simply for publicity, as is their wont. However, a serious point remains; the European laws regarding air carriers' liability for their passengers' welfare if their journeys are interrupted or delayed were written with mechanical and organisational hiccups in mind, not total airspace shutdowns instigated by the regulators (government agencies). It seems more than a little unreasonable that governments can force the airlines to stop operating and then require them to pay to accommodate their passengers! I suspect there will be some assiduous lobbying on this issue.
how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses?
Because it's the law?
I'm well aware of that, and it is, or was, only Ryanair that was stirring things by suggesting they might not pay - which may well have been simply for publicity, as is their wont. However, a serious point remains; the European laws regarding air carriers' liability for their passengers' welfare if their journeys are interrupted or delayed were written with mechanical and organisational hiccups in mind, not total airspace shutdowns instigated by the regulators (government agencies). It seems more than a little unreasonable that governments can force the airlines to stop operating and then require them to pay to accommodate their passengers! I suspect there will be some assiduous lobbying on this issue.
You say it's unfair for the airline to pay. Well, as a non-flying taxpayer, I'm damned if I'll foot the bill for Ryanair's profits and for cheap holidays for people less environmentally careful than myself.
how come the airlines remain liable for all the accommodation and other expenses?
Because it's the law?
I'm well aware of that, and it is, or was, only Ryanair that was stirring things by suggesting they might not pay - which may well have been simply for publicity, as is their wont. However, a serious point remains; the European laws regarding air carriers' liability for their passengers' welfare if their journeys are interrupted or delayed were written with mechanical and organisational hiccups in mind, not total airspace shutdowns instigated by the regulators (government agencies). It seems more than a little unreasonable that governments can force the airlines to stop operating and then require them to pay to accommodate their passengers! I suspect there will be some assiduous lobbying on this issue.
You say it's unfair for the airline to pay. Well, as a non-flying taxpayer, I'm damned if I'll foot the bill for Ryanair's profits and for cheap holidays for people less environmentally careful than myself.
I didn't really think that procedures didn't exist, but that link to the Boeing Magazine was a bit bizarre, since it has a list of nine procedures written in a fairly mickie mouse fashion.
Why would you bother publishing that, if you're clearly going to have much more detailed and complete recommendations that the operator will base their instructions on?
Procedures.
The following nine procedures are general recommendations. Each operator's flight operations manuals will include more specific directions.
In what way was it the airlines' fault these passengers were delayed?
Because the airlines are blaming the government for being over cautious and causing them to be grounded. It's all the government's fault! ::-)
It seems more than a little unreasonable that governments can force the airlines to stop operating and then require them to pay to accommodate their passengers! I suspect there will be some assiduous lobbying on this issue.
In what way was it the airlines' fault these passengers were delayed?
It is not that airlines would have continued to fly regardless (stating this is displaying a poor knowledge of the aero world) either.
Any regardless of that - where has the pressure been to get research into volcanoes since 1982? Presumably the airlines have been doing research/fighting tooth and nail for research?
Any regardless of that - where has the pressure been to get research into volcanoes since 1982? Presumably the airlines have been doing research/fighting tooth and nail for research?
Tim acknowledged that the airlines hadn't helped themselves on this point several pages back. (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32108.msg600031#msg600031)
Any regardless of that - where has the pressure been to get research into volcanoes since 1982? Presumably the airlines have been doing research/fighting tooth and nail for research?
Tim acknowledged that the airlines hadn't helped themselves on this point several pages back. (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32108.msg600031#msg600031)
Dealt here indeed. As an answer to jaded Already I note too.
Volcano Grounds 'Planes (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32108.msg600031#msg600031)
See the bottom on p. 22 as well Jaded!
Looks like they've backed down BBC News - Volcano ash: Ryanair backs down over expenses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8636944.stm) :thumbsup:
If we want better, we have to legislate for it and we have to accept that it'll cost more up front.
I would expect little else from Mr O'Leary and his bargain-basement operation. If this has cost Ryanair between 30 and 40 million euros, he's probably got every right to be a bit pissed off.
If we want better, we have to legislate for it and we have to accept that it'll cost more up front.
I've said it before, operations like Ryanair, Tescos, Foxtons and all the other companies that we love to hate aren't intrinsically bad or evil. ... If we want better, we have to legislate for it and we have to accept that it'll cost more up front.
Good point. I think the issue lies with consumers, they expect too much from these budget operations. What you have a right to expect is determined by the price you pay.
Did Ryanair pay their pilots/cabin crew whilst the planes where grounded?
He knew the legislation but chose to gamble on the total shutdown event not happening. He's profited from the resulting low prices and higher volumes for years. So, no, he has no right to be pissed off that his profitable gamble has come to an end.Absolutely.
Further, your contention that the airlines would have continued flying regardless shows both an ignorance of the safety culture if the industry, and a wilfull disregard of its safety record. If you want to tell us that the industry is casual about safety, show me your evidence.
Yes, and looking at the most recent (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1272949726.png) VAAC plots, it's projected to slowly travel Eastward across the UK, so it wouldn't surprise me to see all the major UK airports closed again. :-\
Due to fly to Scotland tomorrow... Hummm...
Due to fly to Scotland tomorrow... Hummm...
Following on from some of the video links you've posted, you should be fine tomorrow. As long as your plane stays at tree-top level. ;)