"Right to repair" and cycle stuff

[Plug1n]

While reading The Economist article on "right to repair" (https://www.economist.com/news/business/21729744-tractors-smartphones-mending-things-getting-ever-harder-right-repair-movement), I couldn't help thinking about how this related to cycling.

While the wider issue is with stuff like iPhones and vehicle management systems, I think we have been living with this for a while in the cycling world.

Back in the 70s, all Campag parts could be completely disassembled.  However, the general view now is to replace parts often, even things like rear derailleurs.

Frames which were once repairable are now often a dispose and replace item, especially carbon and even alu.

Cycling hasn't been much affected by software license controls yet, but imagine if Garmin started to insist that they owned your gpx history.  This may already be the case for some mobile phone packages.  I don't use Strava, etc, so haven't read their license agreements.

I've never used electronic shifters, so don't know the issues with that software.

Any thoughts?

[Kim]

Ebikes.  Much like cars, firmware updates and certian configuration options are typically only accessible using software/hardware that is only made available to authorised dealers.  If you want to diagnose a fault, or, say, rebuild a hub motor into a different sized wheel, you're out of luck as an end user.

Also (with notable exceptions) batteries tend to have some intelligence and communicate with the controller, so you can't use a different manufacturer's battery or build your own.

And it's proprietary connectors all the way down.


Parts being cheaper to replace than repair isn't quite the same issue, except where it becomes impossible to get the spare parts.

[Brucey]

it has already happened with Di2. The ultegra 10s Di2 front mechs broke very easily, they stopped making them and the remaining stocks were soon used up world-wide (even though they were something stupid like £200 a go...). Later Di2 front mechs were not compatible....

Shimano's "repair" was to replace most of the system with 11s stuff. Duh.

I'm definitely not getting sucked into buying any of that crap anytime soon.

cheers

[trekker12]

With most mechanical items it's a cost issue.

A friend had an accident earlier this year on a steel bike, the head tube weld cracked along with other damage. He got a quote to repair and spray, something that we all know is not hard to do on a steel bike and it was far cheaper to buy a new identical frame and scrap the old one than it was to repair.

In the western world where labour is often the highest cost to any employer we will never get back to repairing anything when it can just be replaced. In low cost labour regions of the world you might get your frame welded up but not here.

Components are the same. Break a derailleur and it's easier to allocate a cost per unit for the time it takes a bike shop to replace than it does to strip down, find the damaged element, have a dig through the parts bin and rebuild the whole thing. All you really need to do is buy a replacement derailleur and allocate the cost of the derailleur + half an hour of labour + your typical mark up and tell the customer a standard price. Therefore my derailleur 'repair' costs the same as yours from a standard price list despite having two different failure modes.

Cars are the same. No main dealer employs mechanics any more. They are all technicians and it's just a parts replacement service. The electronics already discussed are then added on top of the mechanical bit and a computer diagnoses rather than a trained mechanic. It's cheaper on labour and everything has a time allocation. Plus you can own the Intellectual Property to it all

[Brucey]

With most mechanical items it's a cost issue.....

In the western world where labour is often the highest cost to any employer we will never get back to repairing anything when it can just be replaced.

It depends what your motivation is for repairing something. It may not be financially based. 

It also depends how you do your sums, and value your time.  Also any money you spend (vs doing a repair yourself) has to be allowed for in terms of the fact that it took you time to earn it and you were (presumably) taxed too.

In Africa and the far east where labour is cheap you might get your frame welded up but not here.

I've locally weld-repaired lots of bicycle frames, including some of my own.  It typically takes a couple of hours to do a simple repair (including dressing the weld) and to give a squirt of paint to at least slow rust down.   Because the repairs can usually be done without stripping the bike down completely, it is vastly cheaper than having the bike rebuilt around a new frame.

Repairs include; cracks in the BB shell, cracks in the lower head lug, breaks right through the head tube, broken dropouts, broken stay bridges, broken seat stay attachments, cracked seat tubes, broken seat lugs and so forth.

For example I weld-repaired my most-used bike a couple of years ago. It broke in the down tube by the lower head lug, necessitating an eight mile walk....   When I first built the bike I always said that I'd simply replace the frame if it ever broke. Some chance; since then I'd added many braze-ons and the frame wasn't going to be replaced in a hurry.  I dropped the forks and headset out, set to with the welder and the grinder, and had the thing repaired and was riding it again by the following day.

  I've ridden many thousands of miles on the bike since and it has been fine. I've left the repaired area covered in light-coloured paint, so that if it ever cracks again in the same place, I shall see it quite easily.

I don't like weld-repairing forks, (I'd sooner replace them) because if the repaired area cracks again, it may result in a nasty accident. By contrast if most parts of a standard diamond frame break (again), it is much less likely to cause a prang.

cheers

[quixoticgeek]

The main parts that annoy me as being a "warranty void if removed" type affair are dyno hubs. Sure the SON hubs are wonderful and go to the moon and back between servicings, but you can only get them serviced by SON. And they get very angry if you open one up. Even the Shimano dyno hubs, while you have the ability to get most of it apart, the armature, complete with left hand bearings, is non user serviceable (at least according to Shimano).

For the rest of their parts, you can get the exploded diagram and disassemble them and do some work, I recently did this to a pair of M324 pedals. Sure the tool to do it cost nearly twice the price of a new pair of pedals, and I cannibalized some M505's for parts... But I did it because it was a fun way to spend a rainy afternoon...

Shimano free hubs are partially serviceable. Shimano discontinued the tool needed to fully disassemble the inside of the hub (tho you can get copies on ebay), and you need a blind hole bearing puller ideally to get the thing apart, and you have to question why you would on a part that costs less than your hourly rate... But hey...

I think the issue with right to repair within the bike industry (aside from the few parts mentioned in this thread), isn't so much that you can't repair stuff, but that the standards for inter-operation change so damn much. You can't mix sora with tiagra with ultegra... And the standards change very couple of years. 142 hubs with 12mm axles, and 15mm axles and 20mm axles are all confusing things, then the fat bikes are coming along and adding 150mm 170mm and 190mm hub standards...

J

[trekker12]

I agree. However, I'm a mechanical engineer by education and employment. I have a mechanical mind and am curious how that thing was screwed together and do all my own repairs/part replacement on my bikes and my cars¹. When you take labour cost out of anything it all makes commercial sense.

We are fairly unusual in that aspect. Not many people fix their own car/bike/mobile phone. They take the broken item to the shop and hope it comes back mended. All most care about is that it works when it comes back. The repair process is not of interest to them so long as it doesn't cost more than it costs to buy a new one. Being environmentally friendly and saving the planet is driven more by the wallet than ethics.

^{1 I drive old cars to avoid the 'having to plug them into a computer' issue}

[Cudzoziemiec]

Interesting article, thanks.

Frames which were once repairable are now often a dispose and replace item, especially carbon and even alu.

I think carbon frames can be repaired but it might not be cost effective to do so. The main issue, as trekker12 mentioned, is relatively high labour cost vs relatively low material cost, at least in historic terms.

The French law is an interesting idea but how will it be enforced? How do they define planned obsolescence, what happens if something doesn't last as long as they say it should, and if planned obsolescence is defined as, say, expected life less than 3 years, will this actually lead manufacturers to change designs and techniques or simply to lie?

[amedias]

I think carbon frames can be repaired but it might not be cost effective to do so.

Generally I think the opposite is true. Carbon repairs are often relatively cheap, and especially so relative to the cost of most carbon frames.

a £100 labour bill and a £100 repaint on a steel frame that can be replaced for a few hundred is a hard pill to swallow.

a £100-£200 labour bill on a carbon frame that costs >£1000 to replace is more cost effective.

Obviously I'm comparing professional level repairs there by a frame builder, steel can be 'DIY' repaired cheaply if you have the skills or know someone who does, but the same is true of carbon, kits are available and it's actually not as complex as you might think.

A chap in our club was involved in a pile-up last year on his (1 day old!) new carbon fancy-pants-aero bike, busted the top tube. he had it repaired for around £150 including postage both ways, still riding it now and it wears the unpainted repair as a reminder.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think carbon frames can be repaired but it might not be cost effective to do so.

Generally I think the opposite is true. Carbon repairs are often relatively cheap, and especially so relative to the cost of most carbon frames.

a £100 labour bill and a £100 repaint on a steel frame that can be replaced for a few hundred is a hard pill to swallow.

a £100-£200 labour bill on a carbon frame that costs >£1000 to replace is more cost effective.

Obviously I'm comparing professional level repairs there by a frame builder, steel can be 'DIY' repaired cheaply if you have the skills or know someone who does, but the same is true of carbon, kits are available and it's actually not as complex as you might think.

A chap in our club was involved in a pile-up last year on his (1 day old!) new carbon fancy-pants-aero bike, busted the top tube. he had it repaired for around £150 including postage both ways, still riding it now and it wears the unpainted repair as a reminder.

That's good to know.
<looks at carbon frames, checks bank balance... well, it might be useful sometime>

[Brucey]

Shimano free hubs are partially serviceable. Shimano discontinued the tool needed to fully disassemble the inside of the hub (tho you can get copies on ebay), and you need a blind hole bearing puller ideally to get the thing apart, and you have to question why you would on a part that costs less than your hourly rate... But hey...

shimano freehubs (and many copies) are fully serviceable and you don't need a blind bearing puller to disassemble one.  I've reshimmed hundreds of the things. It takes about 25 minutes longer than the usual hub service to do it.

It is a source of constant amazement that most bike shops don't do this kind of repair work in fact. Often if your off-brand freehub is a bit wobbly, the recommended cure is a new pair of wheels....

cheers

[Cudzoziemiec]

Eh? My tame wheelbuilder specifically recommends Shimano hubs on grounds of being cup-and-cone serviceable, though he likes other brands too.

[rogerzilla]

Frames are a funny one because the cost of repainting is now sky-high.  20 years ago I was getting frames nicely enamelled (not powdercoated) for £30-35.  Now it's £100, or £150 at Argos, plus decals, lug lining and whatever else needs doing; a fairly simple refurbishment turns into £300 or £400 before you realise it..  Therefore any small frame repair is uneconomic unless the frame is of serious sentimental or historic value; you'd be better off just finding a secondhand frame.  This is reflected in the prices of vintage frames, which are less than £100 for a ratty one and about £4-500 for one that's just been refurbished.  I suppose it's a combination of labour costs and environmental regs, possibly with a bit of market consolidation leading to gouging.

[quixoticgeek]

shimano freehubs (and many copies) are fully serviceable and you don't need a blind bearing puller to disassemble one.  I've reshimmed hundreds of the things. It takes about 25 minutes longer than the usual hub service to do it.

Perhaps I am using the wrong term here. I'm talking about the bit that attaches to the hub via a 10mm allen bolt, and contains the pawls and ratchet mechanism. The outer dust cap needs to be removed and it's quite a sod to do without damage. Then having got that dust cap out, to the next bit requires the now discontinued TL-FH40. Tho you can get copies on ebay from china for under a tenner...

video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9gIEG1db0s

It is a source of constant amazement that most bike shops don't do this kind of repair work in fact. Often if your off-brand freehub is a bit wobbly, the recommended cure is a new pair of wheels....

Given the cost of labour in most bike shops, it's usually cheaper to just buy a new one. It's not even worth selling a new one to the original customer, then refurbing the old one and selling it on...

There is a lot of variability in bike shop quality. I've found it a challenge to find a decent bike shop in Amsterdam. Sure there's plenty of places that claim to be bike shops, and do repairs, but most of them are flummoxed by anything more complex than a puncture...

J

[Brucey]

The outer dust cap needs to be removed and it's quite a sod to do without damage.

With the typical pressed steel dustcaps, you can pull as hard as you like and all you will do is deform the dustcap; the sharp edge of the dustcap snags on the screw thread, ever tighter.

However there is a trick to this; get a short length of tube, as small as will fit over the centre protrusion of the dustcap. Using it as a drift, bosh the middle of the dustcap inwards, so that the dustcap becomes dished in shape. You should now find it comes out very easily.

The dustcap can be

a) flattened and
b) the lip reflared if necessary

by using some 1/2" drive sockets of the right size as drifts against a flat surface. The edge radius of a suitably-sized socket allows you to reflare the lip BTW.

Alternatively the dustcap can be replaced with a lip seal costing about a quid.

cheers

[rogerzilla]

Campag and SA dustcaps can be removed by putting a tyre lever in place as if you were going to lever it out (which would warp it, so don't) but then tapping the lever through the hub shell with a drift.  This minimises bending forces.  I've never damaged one this way.

[Brucey]

Campag and SA dustcaps can be removed by putting a tyre lever in place as if you were going to lever it out (which would warp it, so don't) but then tapping the lever through the hub shell with a drift.  This minimises bending forces.  I've never damaged one this way.

doesn't work with pressed steel freehub dustcaps; as per post above they usually snag in the screw threads and get tighter. Other approaches are required for this job.

cheers

[Cunobelin]

it has already happened with Di2. The ultegra 10s Di2 front mechs broke very easily, they stopped making them and the remaining stocks were soon used up world-wide (even though they were something stupid like £200 a go...). Later Di2 front mechs were not compatible....

Shimano's "repair" was to replace most of the system with 11s stuff. Duh.

I'm definitely not getting sucked into buying any of that crap anytime soon.

cheers

I would like to see a "lifespan" law brought in for this reason

As opposed to obsolescence, here is a reasonable life for any item, and making it mandatory for the Manafacturer to be able to replace or repair that equipment for that period should be a mandatory requirement

It could also be a deciding factor. Two identical pieces of kit, company A has a 5 year lifespan, and company B 7 years.... which would you buy?



It is already a requirement for some medical equipment

[Samuel D]

It could also be a deciding factor. Two identical pieces of kit, company A has a 5 year lifespan, and company B 7 years.... which would you buy?

For perhaps 95% of the market, the answer is: whichever is shinier. Did anyone think that 10-speed Di2 would be a good long-term bet? Likewise, we must all know that today’s Di2 will be scrap in five years. And yet they sell like gangbusters.

This ship has sailed. Our money-bound society does not understand a non-economic value of durability.

… and you have to question why you would on a part that costs less than your hourly rate...

This question proves my point, although quixoticgeek must have answers or she wouldn’t have done the work. But if you’re looking for very careful, elegant answers, read David Pye’s masterpiece, The Nature and Art of Workmanship. See chapter 8.

[Cudzoziemiec]

This ship has sailed. Our money-bound society does not understand a non-economic value of durability.

True. But then it pretty much has been for centuries. Equally, those who object to Di2 do not understand a non-economic value of performance. I've never used Di2 but consistent performance in all conditions seems its purpose, that too has a value. That's not directly connected with repairability and neither necessarily is durability; something can be durable but irreparable when it finally does break, just that we can value things in many ways.