The participation rates are dismal. In the Netherlands for the current season, we have 1014 homologations of which 46 are female. Last season: 79 females out of 1231 homologations (data from:https://randonneurs.nl/palmares/homologaties-2019/ and https://www.randonneurs.nl/palmares/homologaties-2/. The actual number is a bit higher since not all women bother to change the field in the registration form from "male" (which is the default option) to "female". These are the finishers, of course, but I don't have the impression that the DNF-rate is higher for women. In fact, at my own events so far men are more likely to DNF than women.
The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.
The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.
On LEL 2013, if I remember correctly, 6% of the riders at the start were female, but 7% of finishers were female, which suggests a lower DNF rate for women!
A
I'd be quite interested to know female participation rates in Audax, and the rates of validation.
Can someone please explain how we can change a 400km event through the isolated uninhabited North of Scotland to make it "female friendly". It is like saying we will make marathon running more appropriate for women FFS what are we talking about?
The participation rates are dismal. In the Netherlands for the current season, we have 1014 homologations of which 46 are female. Last season: 79 females out of 1231 homologations (data from:https://randonneurs.nl/palmares/homologaties-2019/ and https://www.randonneurs.nl/palmares/homologaties-2/. The actual number is a bit higher since not all women bother to change the field in the registration form from "male" (which is the default option) to "female". These are the finishers, of course, but I don't have the impression that the DNF-rate is higher for women. In fact, at my own events so far men are more likely to DNF than women.
Can someone please explain how we can change a 400km event through the isolated uninhabited North of Scotland to make it "female friendly". It is like saying we will make marathon running more appropriate for women FFS what are we talking about?
Can someone please explain how we can change a 400km event through the isolated uninhabited North of Scotland to make it "female friendly". It is like saying we will make marathon running more appropriate for women FFS what are we talking about?
BB
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Can someone please explain how we can change a 400km event through the isolated uninhabited North of Scotland to make it "female friendly". It is like saying we will make marathon running more appropriate for women FFS what are we talking about?
BB
Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk
The way I see it is that anything above 200 km is very niche, requires an out of the ordinary mindset and appeals to a very slim section of the pedalling population. I am confident less than 1% of those who define themselves "cyclists" have a desire for such things.
The backbone of Audax in the UK are BP and BR 200, they are are bigger in number and in participation. Neither generally involve night riding, with a few seasonal exceptions... if you can't rack up a gender balance that reflects that of your local cycling club on a BP, then you are doing something wrong, whereas if you can, than that's as much as you can do.
The gender balance of Fridays rides (which isn't 50:50, but it's a lot higher than I've seen outside specifically women-only cycling events) would suggest that night riding per se isn't the barrier people tend to think it is. I reckon the main differences between a FNRttC and a typical BP are the riding as a group (with what that implies for navigation, mechanicals, perceptions of personal safety, etc), and the time of day potentially being more compatible with family commitments.
I also note that the FNRttC is a gateway drug to audax, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to encourage Long Distance Cycling by doing things that aren't Long Distance Cycling. See Flite's comment above. (Welcome, BTW. I was the one at the back on the Brompton.)
More to the point, At BPs I have seen a healthy number of female riders (healthy by cycling standards, so maybe 10-20%)
I also got a bit tired of hanging out with bizarre characters, at the edge between sanity and insanity.
Scratch - Any rider that has a 25 mile time trial time of less than 1 hour in the last three seasons. This will have been entered on the entry form so the organiser will know who they are in advance.
Middlemarker - The middle of the pack ! These guys and girls have an existing 25 mile time of between 1:00:00 and 1:04:00 or you have estimate a time between these 'markers'.
Longmarker - anyone with a time, either actual or estimated, which is outside of 1:04:00.
I can only speak from my own experience YMMV
There has already been a "female friendly" version of Hellfire Corner - albeit travelling in the opposite direction - Steve Carroll's National 400 in 2015
Regular village hall controls meant there were no "toilet issues" - and I even found a public toilet open at 5am in Rogarth (I don't know if the council still leave them unlocked overnight, presumably there is less of a problem with people using them as shooting galleries than in the cities)
I was also attracted to the idea of a large field, increasing the likelihood of having company overnight - I don't mind riding on my own during the day, but prefer company when it's dark.
I know the national 400s take a huge amount of effort so there is no criticism at the lack just now.
Not sure what the scope of the toilet issues are, the highlands is probably the most provisioned area of scotland with public toilets, particularly along the north coast.
https://www.highland.gov.uk/downloads/file/19144/map_of_toilets_in_highland
But then obviously I'm a bloke so...
Let's say I'm organising a brand new event.
What do I do to make it a "female-friendly event"?
Feel free to suggest things based on distance (e.g. "if it's only a 50/100/200 do this but if it's 300+ do this...")
Wobbly - perhaps the first thing for your event would be to attach a map of toilet facilities!
Most events in the calendar are not "newcomer friendly", let alone female friendly.
Things like "The control has changed from last year" or an avalanche of acronyms "WI run control " "VH control", POP at Crapham, EOL with a £2 surcharge, to avoid the hassle of having to populate fields with words are not cool and not informative.
Don't rely on a single capital letter to explain the toilet or food arrangements at HQ (oh dear I just did it) or along the way.
Move on from the status quo that anything beyond the greasiest spoon in the county is posh: younger cyclists and women in particular are actually health conscious.
And make it bulletproof clear that there is indeed a GPX file and it's easy to use without a plethora of disclaimers
Create a webpage describing the event with photos of the amazing places riders will visit and what to expect and why your event is particularly welcoming for newcomers and the ideal event to step up to xxx distance.
Or just ask Liam how he does it
To be fair you're describing (very well, as it happens) how to attract new people to an event. However, nothing you suggest is specifically aimed at welcoming females.
Given that the thread title is "Female Friendly Audax" (and I'm a bloke) I'm asking specifically for advice for making an Audax more female-friendly.
Wobbly - perhaps the first thing for your event would be to attach a map of toilet facilities!
Noted, thanks.
To be fair you're describing (very well, as it happens) how to attract new people to an event. However, nothing you suggest is specifically aimed at welcoming females.
Given that the thread title is "Female Friendly Audax" (and I'm a bloke) I'm asking specifically for advice for making an Audax more female-friendly.
Not sure what the scope of the toilet issues are, the highlands is probably the most provisioned area of scotland with public toilets, particularly along the north coast.
https://www.highland.gov.uk/downloads/file/19144/map_of_toilets_in_highland
But then obviously I'm a bloke so...
Excellent! I think I'll print this out for the north coast 600!
Wobbly - perhaps the first thing for your event would be to attach a map of toilet facilities!
Having a map of toilets is useful for everyone
Personally I think the best thing we could have, is a mentor scheme. Wanna try an Audax, not sure what's involved? Join our mentor scheme. An experienced rider, offers to ride with the newbie, showing them the ropes, explaining what it all involves, answering questions, etc... Make it voluntary on both sides.
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Create a webpage describing the event with photos of the amazing places riders will visit and what to expect and why your event is particularly welcoming for newcomers and the ideal event to step up to xxx distance.
Or just ask Liam how he does it
Having a map of toilets is useful for everyone, but a simpler start point is checking that your controls all have toilet facilities of they are a hall, or cafe. If they don't have facilities, mention it. And make sure they are separated, I'm fed up win finding men in the women's loo at the start of an event.
Should someone organise women-only events under the auspices of AUK? Is that even allowed under the current rules?
Could there be women-only (or women-friendly) groups riding together on events?
Should someone organise women-only events under the auspices of AUK? Is that even allowed under the current rules?
Could there be women-only (or women-friendly) groups riding together on events?
That's not the point at all. I am sure (I hope) no woman would like to be part of a women only Audax, just as I wouldn't like to be part of a men only audax...
The Adventure Syndicate (http://theadventuresyndicate.com/) is dedicated (I think) to providing women-only events.
Should someone organise women-only events under the auspices of AUK? Is that even allowed under the current rules?
Could there be women-only (or women-friendly) groups riding together on events?
Should someone organise women-only events under the auspices of AUK? Is that even allowed under the current rules?
Could there be women-only (or women-friendly) groups riding together on events?
That's not the point at all. I am sure (I hope) no woman would like to be part of a women only Audax, just as I wouldn't like to be part of a men only audax...
I think it's a good idea, but the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules
I include toilet locations as waypoints (without alerts).
Feels like the need for toilets is a 'gender red herring' I see the need for toilets for for both genders but I've also seen times when both genders have been quite happy to make use of a field/bush/woods.... the toilet thing is individual not specifically gender from my observation.
Oh and best way to attract more women is to show them women ‘like them’ taking part. Did my first audax with a female friend 😊
That said, QG actually asked for notes of the reverse — to note where a toilet is NOT available at a control venue — which is a much more reasonable position.Agreed on both counts!
As for her request for toilets that are separate — pfft, it is what it is.
This seems to be a minefield; women-only events in just about every other sport attract big fields.That's not the point at all. I am sure (I hope) no woman would like to be part of a women only Audax, just as I wouldn't like to be part of a men only audax...
Ay, as an organiser, women I've discussed this with — admittedly mostly women already riding on an audax — have indicated that they would actively shun such contrivances.
It's strictly not allowed under the articles that govern Audax UK, because it would be discriminatory against men. And those rules cannot, I believe, be changed, because they are imposed by AUK's status with UK.GOV, and by the insurer, i.e. it's not something for the membership to vote to change.
think it's a good idea, but the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
I suspect the main thing is that you won't be what you can't see. If most/all of our pictures are mamils then that's seen as what an audaxer looks like. So we need lots of pics of dumpy middle aged women in publicity material, looking like normal people rather than as if they've already acquired a load of special kit.
As for her request for toilets that are separate — pfft, it is what it is. It can be eye-wateringly expensive to hire some halls with spangly toilets (> £500), so cheap halls with sometimes (but rarely, IME) questionable facilities are de rigeur (< £100) ... to which I might add that we're lucky in that we get access to a very reasonably priced, yet still quite nice village hall built with Lottery money; unfortunately, the gents' throne is forever backing up, requiring access to the disabled loo for those who need to perch.
Personally I think the best thing we could have, is a mentor scheme. Wanna try an Audax, not sure what's involved? Join our mentor scheme. An experienced rider, offers to ride with the newbie, showing them the ropes, explaining what it all involves, answering questions, etc... Make it voluntary on both sides.
I think it's a good idea, but the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules
I think my conclusion last time was that I'd never have justified the time required if I hadn't been divorced. I never particularly noticed the proportion of women:men, but then I work in IT.
I suspect the main thing is that you won't be what you can't see. If most/all of our pictures are mamils then that's seen as what an audaxer looks like. So we need lots of pics of dumpy middle aged women in publicity material, looking like normal people rather than as if they've already acquired a load of special kit.
Alas I have so far persuaded none of my friends to ride any further than about 3 miles, though friend's daughter did manage the equivalent of the dun run, with b/f.
The best way for women to get fit enough for long audaxes is to ride with a club
It's strictly not allowed under the articles that govern Audax UK, because it would be discriminatory against men. And those rules cannot, I believe, be changed, because they are imposed by AUK's status with UK.GOV, and by the insurer, i.e. it's not something for the membership to vote to change.
Whereabouts? I can’t see anything skimming through the articles and regulations. Most sports are gender-specific, so it can’t be generally illegal.
(There is a regulation saying rides are open to everyone, but it also says rides may be ridden on any kind of cycle. So if you can’t exclude men you can’t exclude the mudguardless)
My club runs quite a few female only rides. They’re fairly popular, although they’ve had near zero impact on female participation in other events.
My perception of most cycling clubs is that they aren’t particularly attractive to women. (Or maybe I’m projecting.) So assuming a background in that culture maybe creates assumptions that don’t help.
It's strictly not allowed under the articles that govern Audax UK, because it would be discriminatory against men. And those rules cannot, I believe, be changed, because they are imposed by AUK's status with UK.GOV, and by the insurer, i.e. it's not something for the membership to vote to change.
Whereabouts? I can’t see anything skimming through the articles and regulations. Most sports are gender-specific, so it can’t be generally illegal.
(There is a regulation saying rides are open to everyone, but it also says rides may be ridden on any kind of cycle. So if you can’t exclude men you can’t exclude the mudguardless)
My club runs quite a few female only rides. They’re fairly popular, although they’ve had near zero impact on female participation in other events.
A middle ground is pitching a Brevet that isn't exclusively for women i.e. men are banned but really target a couple of introductory rides with extra support and publicity towards women riders who aren't on the scene yet 🤔 e.g. asking involving women's clubs as much as possible for their input in making the ride attractive to their members
I'm not talking about a pacer, I'm talking about someone to keep you company for all or some of the ride. Someone to ride along with you and answer things like "What happens if I get to the cafe after the official control closure time marked on my card?" If you want to also let your mentee sit on your wheel because there's a stonking headwind, that's your choice. It's about being welcoming, and helping introduce new people.
As for her request for toilets that are separate — pfft, it is what it is. It can be eye-wateringly expensive to hire some halls with spangly toilets (> £500), so cheap halls with sometimes (but rarely, IME) questionable facilities are de rigeur (< £100) ... to which I might add that we're lucky in that we get access to a very reasonably priced, yet still quite nice village hall built with Lottery money; unfortunately, the gents' throne is forever backing up, requiring access to the disabled loo for those who need to perch.
I think what I'm basically saying is that where there are separate men's and women's loo's, that the men don't use the women's loo. Yes there may be 90 of you, and 5 of us, but as I said to the Dutch bloke I found in the women's loo at the start of a recent audax, you're in the one space at the start where I can take my top off and swap my bra over, so go queue next door.
In this actual case, I walked into what I thought was the ladies, found a man at the sink adjusting his bib shorts, walked out, walked into the next door, found men using urinals, apologised to them, went back onto the other room and asked the bloke to leave. When you're nervous about the fact you're about to do 300km in October, having to battle things like this is just a pain.
I'm not talking about a pacer, I'm talking about someone to keep you company for all or some of the ride. Someone to ride along with you and answer things like "What happens if I get to the cafe after the official control closure time marked on my card?" If you want to also let your mentee sit on your wheel because there's a stonking headwind, that's your choice. It's about being welcoming, and helping introduce new people.
I've never accidentally peed in my shoes, but ...
Audax doesn't seem to be too macho like sportives. It should be a natural space for women riders.
Audax doesn't seem to be too macho like sportives. It should be a natural space for women riders.
Maybe we ought to acknowledge that Audaxes are the low-testosterone alternative to Sportives...?
Research studies on men show the existence of a select group who, through their exposure to chronic endurance exercise training, have developed alterations in their reproductive hormonal profile - principally, low resting testosterone levels. The majority of these men display clinically “normal” levels of testosterone, but the levels are at the very low end of normal, and in some cases reach a sub-clinical status (i.e., “testosterone deficiency”). Such hormonal changes may result in diminished bone mineral content and spermatogenesis, as well as male infertility problems. The prevalence of the problems seems low (~15 to 25% of men doing chronic endurance training), but as noted the research studies examining this condition and its consequences are few in the literature. Hence, more research is needed, especially prospective studies as most information is based upon cross-sectional research designs [1,3].
To be fair you're describing (very well, as it happens) how to attract new people to an event.
Organisation skills will go so far, but it's probably worth reiterating the onus that is on everyone else to minimise some of the usual shit that women have to put up with: learning to recognise if you're making someone uncomfortable or boring the tits off them (are you dominating the conversation? Getting only bare minimum or monosyllabic responses? Glazed looks...?), calling out inappropriate behaviour from others etc etc.
On LWL I took advice from a few women.
Organisation skills will go so far, but it's probably worth reiterating the onus that is on everyone else to minimise some of the usual shit that women have to put up with: learning to recognise if you're making someone uncomfortable or boring the tits off them (are you dominating the conversation? Getting only bare minimum or monosyllabic responses? Glazed looks...?), calling out inappropriate behaviour from others etc etc.
I'd hate for the guys that I've ridden with to read this and think that it is about them. It's not.
I'd hate for the guys that I've ridden with to read this and think that it is about them. It's not.
Being the anti-social old git I am, I rarely ride with anyone. So I'm pretty confident it's not about me :P
I also received some helpful feedback from organiser colleagues.
They recommended two things. They all said that women are more likely to enter a ride if they don't have to commit months in advance and know that they won't be the only women riding.
Organisation skills will go so far, but it's probably worth reiterating the onus that is on everyone else to minimise some of the usual shit that women have to put up with: learning to recognise if you're making someone uncomfortable or boring the tits off them (are you dominating the conversation? Getting only bare minimum or monosyllabic responses? Glazed looks...?), calling out inappropriate behaviour from others etc etc.
This is quite true and made me laugh. It usually takes a little bit of time to establish your credentials and prove that you know something about bikes or whatever it is that they are mansplaining to you.
There is always the option of cycling off or letting them drop you.
They recommended two things. They all said that women are more likely to enter a ride if they don't have to commit months in advance and know that they won't be the only women riding.
I've come to the conclusion that both of those points are both true and significant :thumbsup:
I'm not[1] especially bothered about the being the only woman thing (although it's refreshing to see otherwise), but I know many are.
It's nice not to be the only full-value rider, though.
I've pragmatically accepted this is what DNS is for, but some might consider that rude.
I've pragmatically accepted this is what DNS is for, but some might consider that rude.
Don't feel any guilt — DNSes pay for the hall :thumbsup:
The Adventure Syndicate (http://theadventuresyndicate.com/) is dedicated (I think) to providing women-only events.This isn't really accurate. I don't think The Adventure Syndicate organise many events*, but they promote women doing long distance cycling of one kind or another in order to encourage others (women and men**) to push their boudaries.
I also received some helpful feedback from organiser colleagues.
Could you share some of it here, Phil?
When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed.Which suggests you can publish lessons learned, best practices etc. as long as you can keep it generic and without divulging the sources.
Next, if you compare cycling to something like running, generally the female participation is far far higher in the latter. I think this is, in part, due to the equipment aspect. Hear me out:
Anecdotally, of all the hobbies I have participated in (motorsports, shooting & cycling) the number of females at any given event is <5% at a guess. Those activities all have something in common = equipment. At a very basic level, a little boy still gets given Lego while his sister is given a doll. I know we've probably come a long way since I was a kid, but from walking past the toy aisle in shops I see this is still very much a thing. Of course, these are very broad generalizations. That's not ALL women, but you can see that the net number of women likely to be interested in something like long distance cycling quickly diminishes.
When you consider that Audax is a niche within a niche, I think it speaks (complementary) volumes that I am yet to ride an Audax where there wasn't females at the start.
That's not to say we can't or shouldn't do more. But I think care needs to be taken how we do it. With regards to a purposefully 'female friendly' event, Liam's LWL is undeniably a success in terms of numbers. But, find the different entry requirements for men and women pretty uncomfortable to swallow on principal. Equality of outcome is never the same as equality of opportunity, never should we kid ourselves that it is. The problem with using cold hard metrics are success indicators carries unintended consequences, take school league tables for example. Gun-in-mouth stuff. But, as a temporary vehicle to achieve an equality of opportunity, I find it acceptable. Having a visible female presence will doubtless show others that Audax IS really fun and really quite achieveable.
The women I know who are already riding show that there is no physical barrier limiting participation. They are all bloody strong cyclists. The underlying societal sexism that goes un-noticed, certainly by me and i guess lots of other men, DOES exist within Audax as I suppose it does everywhere. I am told it is very gradually improving but my very esteem'ed female Super Randonneur friend feels it's still MORE remarkable when an event passes WITHOUT some form of back-handed complement ("Gosh, aren't you doing well (for a girl)!") or swerving inquiry as to her marital status ("So, are you riding with your boyfriend/husband/Male Chaperone?") She was particularly narked that the former example happened at LWL, when she rolled into a later control in the front 10% of the field.
Ramble over. TLDR - Female participation is low because of reasons. While we can do things to help, it's not our sole responsibility to change the world.
Right now, If I was to give a man and a woman €1000 in cash, send them into a bike shop and say "Get a bike for audaxing", the man would have a choice, and could walk out with a bike there and then. The woman is unlikely to have a choice of models, is unlikely to find one in stock in the right size, and is probably going to have to wait a few days to a week for a bike to be ordered in.
I would normally insert here a massive rant about how all off the shelf bikes are stupidly over geared and how this disadvantages new women riders, but this week Shimano have announced their GRX groupset, which with it's 46/30 chainset, has the possibility of fixing this. Tho it'll take a while for it to be available on prebuilt bikes.
Positive discrimination is discrimination. There's no beating about the bush with it. I'd love to live in a world where it wasn't needed for things like this, but I can't see a better option.
I'll fly the flag for our nearest LBS here — Rutland Cycles, our local one being in Histon. They DO have a reasonable selection of women's bikes on display, at various price points and features, many under £1,000, that you can take out and test ride. Unfortunately, they don't hold too many sizes, so if you're tiny, like Mrs WB and her sister, they often have to fetch over a built-up XS model from another store to try for any specific model, although generally they do hold most sizes.
And they don't hold backroom stock of hardly any bikes, except the ones on show — all bikes/sizes have to be ordered in from the importer and built up as required, that's just the way they manage their inventory. I can't see a way around this, as holding stock is an expensive and risky game that can cripple any company.
As for our other many LBS in Cambridge, nobody holds much stock, because so many people are checking in-store and then ordering online, so they've stopped stocking many mainstream bikes. Unless you want a shopper*, in which case they're legion ::-)
QuoteI would normally insert here a massive rant about how all off the shelf bikes are stupidly over geared and how this disadvantages new women riders, but this week Shimano have announced their GRX groupset, which with it's 46/30 chainset, has the possibility of fixing this. Tho it'll take a while for it to be available on prebuilt bikes.
I'm a six-foot bloke and I am also interested in that groupset, now that you've mentioned it. Compact 50/34 I always find a bit long for my liking, but that's all there has been with a Shimano badge. Not that I ride with gears that often ...
Positive discrimination is discrimination. There's no beating about the bush with it. I'd love to live in a world where it wasn't needed for things like this, but I can't see a better option.
* Just to be clear: in Cambridge, almost as many men as women ride shoppers, even the kids.
No what the comment made me realize is that of all the women in Scottish Road and targa rallying I can think going for as long as I've been involved of every one of them has been in the navigators seat.
My delight at the prospect of the new shimano GRX groupset was short lived - according to what I can see, it is only available in 170mm and larger cranks - so not really very female friendly after all :'(
My delight at the prospect of the new shimano GRX groupset was short lived - according to what I can see, it is only available in 170mm and larger cranks - so not really very female friendly after all :'(
My delight at the prospect of the new shimano GRX groupset was short lived - according to what I can see, it is only available in 170mm and larger cranks - so not really very female friendly after all :'(
Fucksake.
My delight at the prospect of the new shimano GRX groupset was short lived - according to what I can see, it is only available in 170mm and larger cranks - so not really very female friendly after all :'(
Fucksake.
That was the point at which I closed the browser tab, IIRC.
My delight at the prospect of the new shimano GRX groupset was short lived - according to what I can see, it is only available in 170mm and larger cranks - so not really very female friendly after all :'(
I often have to make assumptions, and use my own knowledge to get a response, that's inevitable. An example is this [...]
Yep, Equality makes things better for everyone.... except for when some people have to give up some of their long-held powers and privileges in order for that to happen...
It is my sole purpose on this rock to leave the world a better place than I found it.
If you walk past something you can fix in the world that's pretty shabby.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40902320663_2d62f4b351_b.jpg)
I often have to make assumptions, and use my own knowledge to get a response, that's inevitable. An example is this [...]
The usual edited film caveats apply, but when I watched that video, the example I saw was of someone being deliberately evasive about giving out information about her identity and where she lived then being pressed to give her full name on film.
Increasingly, people are getting involved in endurance cycling in a way that hasn't been seen for many decades. Events like the Transcontinental Race and London Edinburgh London are attracting bigger fields than ever. Audax UK, the governing body for grass roots distance cycling reports a growing membership and greater participation in its events. Informal organisations like the Adventure Syndicate are hosting packed meetings when people listen to talks from the likes of Emily Chappell, Shu Pillinger and Jasmijn herself.https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/road-heroes-liam-fitzpatrick
And the bike trade is catching in as well, offering new types of luggage and bikes. It's only a matter of time before commercial organisers get involved in promoting endurance rides minus all the grief of plotting a route and worrying about where to stay.
The usual edited film caveats apply, but when I watched that video, the example I saw was of someone being deliberately evasive about giving out information about her identity and where she lived then being pressed to give her full name on film.
The usual edited film caveats apply, but when I watched that video, the example I saw was of someone being deliberately evasive about giving out information about her identity and where she lived then being pressed to give her full name on film.
That feels a tiny bit unfair TBH; I think Damon tries hard to get knackered people to tell their story in the moment; my impression wasn't of her being deliberately evasive but of someone being surprised by his candid filming approach. I felt he captures quite well the sense of being slight preoccupied at the start of a ride and the understated elation we feel at the end. As a professional southerner-bater he may have many failings but I would be surprised if many of his finished works were faulted for sexism.
I found your account of PBP 2007 online the other day Liam, and laughed at the bit where I wound you up by casting doubt about Willesden's points tally. That provocative opinion was based on Willesden's strong Japanese contingent. Heather and I interviewed Willesden's own Akiko Kawachi on LEL 2005, at PBP 2011, PBP 2015 and at LEL 2017, she's a friend on Facebook, it was her birthday the other day.
I haven't seen that three-panel version before, nor the ones that Nikki posted. I think I prefer this one, because in fact the fence has a purpose: to protect the spectators from getting hit by flying balls and to protect the players (and pitch) from rowdy fans. So it's good to show that purpose being met and not presenting an obstacle in doing so. (Yes, it would be even better to de-rowdify the fans, but that's a different poster... )
The version I've seen has a 3rd panel:
(https://static.diffen.com/uploadz/3/37/Equality-equity-justice-lores.png)
J
I found your account of PBP 2007 online the other day Liam, and laughed at the bit where I wound you up by casting doubt about Willesden's points tally. That provocative opinion was based on Willesden's strong Japanese contingent. Heather and I interviewed Willesden's own Akiko Kawachi on LEL 2005, at PBP 2011, PBP 2015 and at LEL 2017, she's a friend on Facebook, it was her birthday the other day.
Heady days....
Something all cyclists can do, all those who consider themselves to be male allies, is to ask your local bike shop about their women's range. Suggest they should stock more than 1 women's bike, they should have a range of women's clothing.A couple of days ago I saw a man on a Liv road bike, which is Giant's brand aimed at women, so it's a two-way beneficial overlap.
Right now, If I was to give a man and a woman €1000 in cash, send them into a bike shop and say "Get a bike for audaxing", the man would have a choice, and could walk out with a bike there and then. The woman is unlikely to have a choice of models, is unlikely to find one in stock in the right size, and is probably going to have to wait a few days to a week for a bike to be ordered in.
I suspect the main thing is that you won't be what you can't see. If most/all of our pictures are mamils then that's seen as what an audaxer looks like. So we need lots of pics of dumpy middle aged women in publicity material, looking like normal people rather than as if they've already acquired a load of special kit.
Alas I have so far persuaded none of my friends to ride any further than about 3 miles, though friend's daughter did manage the equivalent of the dun run, with b/f.
I recently complained to British Cycling that an article about women's saddles had a photograph at the top of the webpage of a group cyclists - all looking very happy and comfortable - and ALL MEN . Their response was to remove the photograph; not replace it with a similar group of women!
Just for clarity there were no gender differences in the entry requirements. An entry form and hard cash was needed from everyone.As someone who until recently had to negotiate all his leave with other staff, a few months in advance, balance family commitments, and is white male and middle aged, I find all this a little odd. Could the reason for the diversity be that LWL effectively starts in London?
The only thing that happened was an attempt to mitigate a perceived discriminatory administrative barrier to entry. The advice I received was that requiring everyone to sign up 9 months in advance was unhelpful to women who don't always have the freedom to make that sort of commitment so far ahead so we therefore guaranteed places to women. This had the added effect of telling women that this was an event that would welcome them; I suspect this heightened interest was a significant reason for the more diverse field
I did however actively discriminate against non AUK members who I didn't add to the waiting list.
If you walk past something you can fix in the world that's pretty shabby.
Just for clarity there were no gender differences in the entry requirements. An entry form and hard cash was needed from everyone.As someone who until recently had to negotiate all his leave with other staff, a few months in advance, balance family commitments, and is white male and middle aged, I find all this a little odd. Could the reason for the diversity be that LWL effectively starts in London?
The only thing that happened was an attempt to mitigate a perceived discriminatory administrative barrier to entry. The advice I received was that requiring everyone to sign up 9 months in advance was unhelpful to women who don't always have the freedom to make that sort of commitment so far ahead so we therefore guaranteed places to women. This had the added effect of telling women that this was an event that would welcome them; I suspect this heightened interest was a significant reason for the more diverse field
I did however actively discriminate against non AUK members who I didn't add to the waiting list.
If you walk past something you can fix in the world that's pretty shabby.
If we are going to include such items as "too far in advance" to be fair to women then we must include such activities as buying tickets for Wimbledon and going to the theatre. I have tried both recently and failed to get tickets for Wimbledon and the tickets were sold out for the show I wanted (four months in advance). I told them I had assumed privilege but it got me nowhere.
(Waits for calls of "He doesn't understand")
BB
Few women ride Audax events, especially the longer rides, but over the years I have bee encouraged by the increasing numbers. Yet few feature in the photographs in Arivee (again this is improving) or other cycling magazines & websites.
If ethnic minorities, children, disabled, women etc see good images of people who they can identify with they are more likely to feel comfortable & welcome to join in.
I carry wet wipes as can be caught short in quite a sudden way.Having a map of toilets is useful for everyone
Yes, I generally know where there are bogs because occasionally I need to find one in a hurry.
I carry wet wipes as can be caught short in quite a sudden way.Having a map of toilets is useful for everyone
Yes, I generally know where there are bogs because occasionally I need to find one in a hurry.
I apologise for the detail.
BB
Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk
The first rule of phoo club........ Every long distance cyclist has a story......I carry wet wipes as can be caught short in quite a sudden way.Having a map of toilets is useful for everyone
Yes, I generally know where there are bogs because occasionally I need to find one in a hurry.
I apologise for the detail.
BB
Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk
... suggest that you fly that comment past any close female friends or relatives.
I noticed ctc magazine this week has an article about very short/tall/heavy riders and illustrates this with (amongst others) a woman who is 5’3” - the average height of a woman in the uk! The article is pretty good, but it does make you wonder when an average woman is regarded as extreme by the ctc
That is a question I ask to unfamiliar riders at least 25% of the time when a small group forms, regardless of gender. I like learning how folk hear about brevets and also which interesting rides they’ve done.
I'm not sure I'd be too fussy about smalltalk quality in the few fraught minutes before an event starts.
I might just be more focussed on bike/clothes/route etc and expect other riders might be similar.
Had a new one asked yesterday.
"Is this your first brevet?"
"No, it's my 7th this year"
Only 6 women out of 52 riders yesterday. I'm curious why he felt that the women would be doing their first 200...
I was wearing my TCR cap too[1]...
J
[1]I don't normally wear a race cap outside of a race, but felt I should for this particular ride.
Surprised you didn't reply "Don't you know who I am?!?!? Look, look - this is a TCR cap! A TCR CAP! Are you an idiot? etc."
Talk about having a chip on your shoulder....
However it makes me reflect on the number of times I've asked riders whether this is their first Audax ride. You know, starting a conversation, happy to offer help, etc. I now realise that's a completely unacceptable way to behave unless you ask in an approved manner.
My usual question (on an audax) with someone I haven't met before is "Have you done this one before?"
@ quixoticgeek
You know it was only asked of the women on the ride? Why do you assume everyone will know what a TCR cap is about? Maybe you could go into the rides without an agenda - or even an a-gender?!
Is a man talking to a woman patronising by definition? It might have been his first audax, too, you know?
I was wearing my TCR cap too[1]...
Surprised you didn't reply "Don't you know who I am?!?!? Look, look - this is a TCR cap! A TCR CAP! Are you an idiot? etc."
Talk about having a chip on your shoulder....
However it makes me reflect on the number of times I've asked riders whether this is their first Audax ride. You know, starting a conversation, happy to offer help, etc. I now realise that's a completely unacceptable way to behave unless you ask in an approved manner.
It's patronising. It's up there with "Are you here with your boyfriend?"
If you're asking every rider that, sure go for it. But to only ask it of the women on a ride?
J
I've never been asked if it's my first audax.
More than once I have been asked whether I'm riding my first Audax. I don't recall ever taking offence.
But then offence is something taken, not given.
Should have asked if it was their first 200, heading out without reliable navigation.I'm not sure I'd be too fussy about smalltalk quality in the few fraught minutes before an event starts.
I might just be more focussed on bike/clothes/route etc and expect other riders might be similar.
We were riding at the time, and I was navigating for them as their nav wasn't working...
J
'Do you come here often'
I’ve ridden the Tottenham Court Road :thumbsup:
This isn't about 'one off' instances, this is clearly in the context of repeatedly and consistently being approached under the assumption of less experience and expertise by men. Whether in work or cycling or whatever else I'll wager.
It’s because you don’t fit the stereotype, of which gender is just one element. I don’t fit it either and sadly it’s become even narrower since I started. I’ve been asked and told so much nonsense that I’ve taken a break from them this year and have not yet decided if I will do any more. It’s a stereotype that those who consider audax and racing to be one and the same perpetuate.This isn't about 'one off' instances, this is clearly in the context of repeatedly and consistently being approached under the assumption of less experience and expertise by men. Whether in work or cycling or whatever else I'll wager.
This. So much this.
Each individual case like this in and of itself isn't a major issue. But it's the death by a thousand cuts of every single case adding up.
J
It’s a stereotype that those who consider audax and racing to be one and the same perpetuate.are you saying that the "typical" audaxer treats it as a race?
[ It’s a stereotype that those who consider audax and racing to be one and the same perpetuate.
I guess we'll have to bow to your expertise and experience in this area. Even those of us who have managed to "approach" female riders without doing this.QuoteMore than once I have been asked whether I'm riding my first Audax. I don't recall ever taking offence.
But then offence is something taken, not given.
This isn't about 'one off' instances, this is clearly in the context of repeatedly and consistently being approached under the assumption of less experience and expertise by men.
I dont view Number_of_Brevets_ridden as a very good measure of a human being => I cant see how assuming the number might be zero is in any way patronising or insulting. Especially if you can see that your new companion has ridden the TCR ...
You can see why a lot of riders choose to avoid starting conversations..
Only 6 women out of 52 riders yesterday...
@Paul:Look on these boards, all the talk is how long it took, how fast. Sure there’s always been some of that in the mix, but it’s now so dominant that some of those looking for something else no longer feel it’s for them. Look at how many CTC groups are no longer organising, look at how many CTC riders are no longer riding. I’m not making a complaint, but in the pursuit of popularity things have been lost. Like attracts like, and it is a different experience when your like disappears.
You've baffled me with this:QuoteIt’s a stereotype that those who consider audax and racing to be one and the same perpetuate.are you saying that the "typical" audaxer treats it as a race?
Or that non-audaxers assume audax is a race?
Or something else??
:-\
Please let us know when you’re not going to finish (how many get asked that?)
Yes if, how many times do you get asked it? It wasn’t asked of everyone on that ride.Please let us know when you’re not going to finish (how many get asked that?)
When intended as an if?
Everyone should be on the receiving end of that, it's not a question, it's an instruction.
If someone asks me similar I tend to just say - ‘I’ve done a few’.
It’s not a pissing contest.
In the last audax I was a controller in, which is a popular 200 with over 300 riders, only about 10% were giving it the beans. Everyone else was well within the 30km/h speed limit. Mostly substantively closer to 20 km/h or below.When I first started riding, getting round in the limit was a challenge for a substantial proportion of the riders, that’s no longer the case, it isn’t that anyone has got faster, those people no longer enter. This isn’t some little bubble, I like to travel and have done rides all over the country.
If someone asks me similar I tend to just say - ‘I’ve done a few’.
It’s not a pissing contest.
brevets, i've done a few..
but then again, too few to mention..
igmc
OK, thanks. Food for thought ...@Paul:Look on these boards, all the talk is how long it took, how fast. Sure there’s always been some of that in the mix, but it’s now so dominant that some of those looking for something else no longer feel it’s for them. Look at how many CTC groups are no longer organising, look at how many CTC riders are no longer riding. I’m not making a complaint, but in the pursuit of popularity things have been lost. Like attracts like, and it is a different experience when your like disappears.
You've baffled me with this:QuoteIt’s a stereotype that those who consider audax and racing to be one and the same perpetuate.are you saying that the "typical" audaxer treats it as a race?
Or that non-audaxers assume audax is a race?
Or something else??
:-\
Snippets from last year, dressed casual and on a flat bar tourer~ do you know how far it is~ It’ll be hard to finish on that~ we were going to send a search party out (this on the overnight control of a 400 when I had three hours in hand)~ Please let us know when you’re not going to finish (how many get asked that?)
I could go on... I probably have...
Our Devon ride to the pub on a Wednesday group had six PBP riders. Two packed and four finished. One of the finishers was a womanDid they pack on the way to, or back from the pub?
And to try and bring this vaguely back on topic, at that time nearly all the women who rode with the local CTC group would also ride the local Audax(s) still a dismal number, but equally dismal in both. Now, despite the same CTC group having a better gender mix, about 60/40, not one of the women rides Audax.
I'm female. I have not ridden an audax for a few years, so don't know if the general ambience has changed. When I was riding them regularly I frequently did so on my own. What struck me was the friendliness and kindness of other audaxers. Yes, I frequently got asked if it was my first audax and you could see people looking for my "other half", then asking if I was riding on my own. I took no offence at this and did not feel patronised. Many times other riders would offer a tow whether I was struggling or not and sometimes I was able to return the favour to others (both male and female). I have even had guys stop and assist when I have had a puncture. Yes, I could have managed on my own, but help is always graciously accepted.
So gentlemen, if you see a female on an audax please don't be worried about striking up a conversation or offering assistance for fear of giving offence. We are not all as prickly as some of the posts on this thread would have you believe. It's nice to chat to other riders and the friendliness and kindness of others is what makes an audax ride special.
Just for context- I have done an SR and PBP ( albeit several years ago) so am not talking from the perspective of someone who has only ridden a few 100k rides.Quote
In the off chance that is a suggestion that I've only done a few 100k rides. I'm at 14 BRM, plus a load of DIY's... and an ultra race...QuoteWhat could be done to attract more females? A friend introduced me to audax and I rode my first one with them. Perhaps some sort of "ride buddy" scheme would help. Personally I have never found toilets to be an issue or even a consideration.
s/females/women/g
I have suggested the ride mentoring scheme in multiple places across this forum, but as yet it has widely been knocked as "it's not needed cos we're friendly!"
Most people I meet on Audax events are great people, they treat me as an equal, they aren't patronising. But there is a tiny minority that can ruin an otherwise brilliant ride.
J
J, many of the points you make are perfectly reasonable but it's pretty hard for someone to be able to predict what is actually driving those points when they respond to your original point, which merely mentioned someone opening a conversation with an enquiry as to whether or not it was your first Audax - that and the fact that they didn't seem to recognise your TCR cap. Almost nobody in the world, even in the cycling world, will recognise a TCR cap. Or just possibly they did - and thought it was no big deal!
It all seems a hell of an extrapolation from what was probably a well-intended greetring.
Yes, but that's miles (kilometres) after your original complaint!
I'm afraid women are patronised almost wherever and whenever they cycle in the UK.
Those who are patronising may not be aware of this.
Let's play hunt the ignorant misogynist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpzTtxAEHVc
For the 100k events there will be a lot of carbon bling
To be fair carbon fibre is now super cheap. You can get a carbon fibre bike for under a grand these days - indeed as low as £540 https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/boardman-road-team-carbon-bike-51-5-53-55-5-57-5cm-frames , which is about half the cost of my own steel bike. It's long past time to stop reckoning a carbon frame marks someone out as someone with a pile of dough because right now a Reynolds 725 frame will cost you significantly more, since carbon frames are turned out by the tens of thousands in Taiwan.
Since we're all giving our anecdotes, in my last audax I was chatting with someone while getting the tea in about the TCR and Fiona the winner. He literally said to my face that 'women are getting up themselves'. Ha ha ha, what a funny joke.
For the 100k events there will be a lot of carbon bling
To be fair carbon fibre is now super cheap. You can get a carbon fibre bike for under a grand these days - indeed as low as £540 https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/boardman-road-team-carbon-bike-51-5-53-55-5-57-5cm-frames , which is about half the cost of my own steel bike. It's long past time to stop reckoning a carbon frame marks someone out as someone with a pile of dough because right now a Reynolds 725 frame will cost you significantly more, since carbon frames are turned out by the tens of thousands in Taiwan.
Since we're all giving our anecdotes, in my last audax I was chatting with someone while getting the tea in about the TCR and Fiona the winner. He literally said to my face that 'women are getting up themselves'. Ha ha ha, what a funny joke.
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
Did you also forget "frame badge from last sportif still attached to frame?" :p
I wear rapha gear, but I'm on a steel framed bike covered in extraneous junk...
Does 32 spokes count as low spoke count in audax circles?
But, in all seriousness, I think the "carbon bling" as a term to describe a type of rider isn't quite fair, give how carbon bikes have become more the norm. It's a bit like when the media complain about poor people having flat screen tv's. Have you tried buying a non flat screen tv recently?
J
And I'm fairly sure the carbon fork on my Streetmachine is firmly into beardy weirdy territory. The emphasis is on the bling, not the carbon.
And, TBH, I don't have a problem with the fast roadies on carbon bling. I'll only see them for the first ten minutes, and whenever they stop for punctures or navigational difficulties. (I don't think there's any point in being snobby about having proper tyres, a decent toolkit and knowing how to work my GPS receiver, either. They still win hands-down at the riding a bike side of things.)
And I'm fairly sure the carbon fork on my Streetmachine is firmly into beardy weirdy territory. The emphasis is on the bling, not the carbon.
And, TBH, I don't have a problem with the fast roadies on carbon bling. I'll only see them for the first ten minutes, and whenever they stop for punctures or navigational difficulties. (I don't think there's any point in being snobby about having proper tyres, a decent toolkit and knowing how to work my GPS receiver, either. They still win hands-down at the riding a bike side of things.)
Being the defacto back marker, I usually pick up those who are having navigational issues.
On the 300 3 weeks ago, we had 2 working nav devices between 4 of us. The one on my Handlbars, and the spare in my saddle bag...
Was a good arrangement, they let me draft, I shouted out directions. I also didn't need to worry about being dropped as they'd get lost if they did... Of the three of them only 1 had done a BRM before (a 200).
J
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?
There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.
You'd be most welcome at any Randonneurs NL ride!
J
Quote
There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.
thanks for the reply and I do understand that to an extent, but pretty much *the* reason I've saved and got that gear is as I'm quite a poor rider and struggle and usually only manage 16-20km average on a 200km. I'm not doing it to look flash or brag, I got the kit/bike as I am often riding solo, often in the dark for the end of the day, in all those various weather conditions, often very tired and the bike and the kit just for me help make me get back to the finish (in time or not), as it's a pretty scary place to be all alone in the dark somewhere you've never been before not knowing if you're even going to make it back.
I know you'll all know those feelings too at times, but it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.
I def do hope to improve and indeed this year I have - but I bought the bike/kit as I love to ride, and that it is lighter than my previous bikes and helps me to ride with a bit more confidence that I'll be able to manage those (almost always solo) rides is why I saved for them.
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?
... it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing. Beams and motes eh?
It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing. Beams and motes eh?
It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing. Beams and motes eh?
I think that's a stretch. I took her to be using 'carbon bling' as a shorthand, maybe a clumsy one, for the sorts of riders who feel that their expensive kit not only validates them as a person, but also aren't shy of indicating that they think people without the same sort of kit are thereby diminished.
They're not common, but they do exist.
(Then again, I do think JBB does jolly well for a girl.)
Yes, but that's miles (kilometres) after your original complaint!
So I know I'm on the same page. What is my original complaint?
J
It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing. Beams and motes eh?
Hmm, I think you're jumping to conclusions here. I was attempting to define the subgroups that exist in the audax world at 2 distances. I don't believe I defined which group I belong too, although it varies from time to time depending on weather and circumstance. I just wish I could ride a bit faster!
J, I was referring to post 127, which is where I came in, I think. We seem to have come a long way since then. I'd be more likely to be addressed with, "This your first hip replacement, then?2
The form on the randonneurs NL site is not exactly well designed. I'd entered 3 events before I noticed that there was a symbol I could click on and change from a male symbol to a female symbol. It's a pretty poor UI choice. I don't know if my gender has been corrected on the rides that I did do, before I realised that was on the form. I really should feedback this to who ever it is that sorts the website, but seeing as I've sent far too many naggy emails to the board recently, I'd like to give it a while before opening yet another can or worms...
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
It's not an audax thing - it's a yacf thing.
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
It's not an audax thing - it's a yacf thing.
I'd be quite interested to know female participation rates in Audax, and the rates of validation.
The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.
In notional cohorts of 100 women and 100 men starting in the 200 qualifiers. How many men and how many women would be left if those relative DNF rates applied throughout the qualifying SR series?
I've actually no idea of what the gendered representation and DNF rates are. I'm assuming that relative representation and validation rates will vary with the 'difficulty' of the rides.
The PBP course is a 'given'. But weather conditions aren't, nor are the conditions in the home countries of the participants. It's interesting to think what 'equal' representation would consist of.
Upwrongs
Upwrongs
is pretty tedious to read five times a day.
I'd be quite interested to know female participation rates in Audax, and the rates of validation.
The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.
In notional cohorts of 100 women and 100 men starting in the 200 qualifiers. How many men and how many women would be left if those relative DNF rates applied throughout the qualifying SR series?
I've actually no idea of what the gendered representation and DNF rates are. I'm assuming that relative representation and validation rates will vary with the 'difficulty' of the rides.
The PBP course is a 'given'. But weather conditions aren't, nor are the conditions in the home countries of the participants. It's interesting to think what 'equal' representation would consist of.
totally agree
Personally I think the best thing we could have, is a mentor scheme. Wanna try an Audax, not sure what's involved? Join our mentor scheme. An experienced rider, offers to ride with the newbie, showing them the ropes, explaining what it all involves, answering questions, etc... Make it voluntary on both sides.
I think it's a good idea, but the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules
in every walk of life there are arseholes; arseholes will be arseholes! ignoring them is by far the best way of treating themQuote
There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.
thanks for the reply and I do understand that to an extent, but pretty much *the* reason I've saved and got that gear is as I'm quite a poor rider and struggle and usually only manage 16-20km average on a 200km. I'm not doing it to look flash or brag, I got the kit/bike as I am often riding solo, often in the dark for the end of the day, in all those various weather conditions, often very tired and the bike and the kit just for me help make me get back to the finish (in time or not), as it's a pretty scary place to be all alone in the dark somewhere you've never been before not knowing if you're even going to make it back.
I know you'll all know those feelings too at times, but it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.
I def do hope to improve and indeed this year I have - but I bought the bike/kit as I love to ride, and that it is lighter than my previous bikes and helps me to ride with a bit more confidence that I'll be able to manage those (almost always solo) rides is why I saved for them.
If we postulate that 'female friendly' rides are flatter rides, ...
rtotally agree
...the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules
If we postulate that 'female friendly' rides are flatter rides, ...
... then we are likely to be accused of sexism, and our accusers are likely to be right.
I'm aiming to organise a ride next year and to recruit volunteers who will act as captains for underrepresented-in-audax demographics who would like to be in a larger group - even just to know that 'people like them' will be there. I expect many might split off under their own initiative. I've seen nothing in the organiser's rulebook and the audax rulebook to preclude this.
9.9.3 Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other
but may not be paced by any other cyclist.
I note the regs allow organiser complete control over maximum speed. I’d love to run a, say 20 km/h max event, so people who ride that speed naturally have an advantage.
In the absence of published distances and times ]the only way to indicate Audax prowess is to add AAA points. The more of those get added, the lower the female representation seems to be. So I'd view AAA points as sexist, as they lead to male-dominated events; 'Willy Wavers', which generate endless 'humble bragging' blogs.
I note the regs allow organiser complete control over maximum speed. I’d love to run a, say 20 km/h max event, so people who ride that speed naturally have an advantage.
You can only so that if organising a Brevet Populaire. You can't change the max/min speeds on BRs or BRMs.
Some old guard are happy and successful using ancient gear that has been nurtured over the years.
"Carbon bling" - here used to define a subset of cyclists. To try and be more precise - and there are obviously exceptions.
Carbon bike of "known brand", low spoke count wheels, minimal/no luggage, Rapha, Chapeau etc kit, Look pedals, non-club background. (I think I'm talking about my son here....)
"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?
as someone who's still quite new to Audax riding (this is only my second year and I've only ridden two 200km this year) who wears a lot of Rapha, has some Look pedals, tries to carry as minimal amount of gear as I can and has saved an awful lot to buy my kit and deeply enjoys riding her "known brand" Carbon aero bike that I saved for this year, should I be aware I'm not really welcome on the rides by some ?
In the absence of published distances and times ]the only way to indicate Audax prowess is to add AAA points. The more of those get added, the lower the female representation seems to be. So I'd view AAA points as sexist, as they lead to male-dominated events; 'Willy Wavers', which generate endless 'humble bragging' blogs.
Right, let's abolish AAA points events pronto. [and abolish any hilly event with published 'climb' data which would approach or breach former AAA qualifications thereby still leading to "willy waving"] => concentrate all AUK events in East Anglia, Cheshire Plains, &c. Job done, end of 'willy waving'
What is the ideal "female representation" btw?
In the absence of published distances and times ]the only way to indicate Audax prowess is to add AAA points. The more of those get added, the lower the female representation seems to be. So I'd view AAA points as sexist, as they lead to male-dominated events; 'Willy Wavers', which generate endless 'humble bragging' blogs.
Right, let's abolish AAA points events pronto. [and abolish any hilly event with published 'climb' data which would approach or breach former AAA qualifications thereby still leading to "willy waving"] => concentrate all AUK events in East Anglia, Cheshire Plains, &c. Job done, end of 'willy waving'
What is the ideal "female representation" btw?
What I would say is that RNL does publish finishing times. I'm not sure why AUK doesn't.
QuoteWhat I would say is that RNL does publish finishing times. I'm not sure why AUK doesn't.
I think this is an insurance thing.
If times are not published, accusations of 'racing' FAIL.
AAA ratings are an indicator for how scenic a ride will be. They don't make an event sexist, because they aren't discriminatory. The events are open to anyone and everyone. People choosing not to do an event because THEY deem it too hard, or not being fit enough, is neither here nor there.
Of the calendar 200s for the next year, 49 have no AAA ratings, compared to 21 with, so there are plenty of options. There are only two ways of making a ride of a set distance more challenging, reducing the time limit or increasing the climbing, and you can't reduce the time limit, so increased climbing it is.
I'm aiming to organise a ride next year and to recruit volunteers who will act as captains for underrepresented-in-audax demographics who would like to be in a larger group - even just to know that 'people like them' will be there. I expect many might split off under their own initiative. I've seen nothing in the organiser's rulebook and the audax rulebook to preclude this.
AAA ratings are an indicator for how scenic a ride will be. They don't make an event sexist, because they aren't discriminatory. The events are open to anyone and everyone. People choosing not to do an event because THEY deem it too hard, or not being fit enough, is neither here nor there.
Of the calendar 200s for the next year, 49 have no AAA ratings, compared to 21 with, so there are plenty of options. There are only two ways of making a ride of a set distance more challenging, reducing the time limit or increasing the climbing, and you can't reduce the time limit, so increased climbing it is.
If you read my answer a while back, it was in reply to the idea that increased climbing makes rides more difficult for women to complete was sexist. My point was that TT statistics tend to indicate that women are about 15% slower in unpaced riding. So any attempt to make rides more challenging by increasing the amount of climbing will impact on women more. The same is true of larger men.
The idea of AAAs as sexist is also a bit of a reference to the 'Overly Woke' sketch. Where water might be racist.
https://vimeo.com/276940268