Author Topic: Cycle paths and increased risk.  (Read 19298 times)

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #25 on: 25 April, 2008, 05:23:14 pm »
In all the companies I worked for, in Germany, cycling to and from work was very much the minority. More people would take the bus than use a bike. It wasnt a surge of cyclists each rush hour, far from it. Thats how I saw it anyway. Holland may well be different.
Nutty please dont ask about my work place cycling infastructure. Last year they took away the cyclist changing rooms and shower. I dont see how that is encouraging cycling to and from work. 

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #26 on: 25 April, 2008, 05:27:22 pm »
<----    Lives in Real World TM  so I know that reports seen may not refer to actually what is in place.

But I referred to "Travel Plans", which have a lot of bumph in them, and not "cycling infrastructure".  I have however noted your comment for future discussions ;)

 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( to removal of changing rooms and shower.

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #27 on: 25 April, 2008, 05:39:13 pm »
Quote
I have however noted your comment for future discussions

Cheers :thumbsup:

mr endon

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #28 on: 25 April, 2008, 08:53:31 pm »
Discussing this with a colleague; he of the view you're more at risk from motorised traffic riding on the road than you are at risk riding on segregated paths.

He's right. There is far more motorised traffic on the roads than on segregated paths.

No, I think I've made clear what he meant: that you're more at risk from motorised traffic riding on the road than you are at risk ( left undefined because including - but not limited to - that presented by motorised traffic, so all risk the segregated path cyclist is exposed to.) riding on segregated paths.
So I'm not seeking data that compares the incidence of death of, and injury to, cyclists caused by collision with motor vehicles on roads, with the incidence of death of, and injury to, cyclists caused by collision with motor vehicles on segregated cycle paths. Rather I'm seeking data with which to compare the incidence of cyclist deaths/injury caused by motorised traffic on the road, with the incidence of death/injury from any and all causes on segregated paths.
I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

Anyway, looks as though there isn't any, that we're aware of.

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #29 on: 28 April, 2008, 12:22:41 pm »
In towns like York where everyone grew up cycling and it's seen as a normal mode of transport for everyone and people don't think you need special clothes or shoes and helmets and hi viz jackets to even consider getting on a bike the argument rarely comes up.

Here in Oxford most people don't feel the need to have lights, functioning brakes, or properly inflated tyres either. I'm not sure I'd take that as an indication of how safe they feel on the roads...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #30 on: 28 April, 2008, 12:38:30 pm »
The psyclepath up the Banbury Road in Oxford is possibly the most dangerous I've ever tried to use.  You face death at every driveway.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=oxford&ie=UTF8&ll=51.784436,-1.265659&spn=0.012584,0.029011&z=15

To make matters worse, if you use the road then drivers run deliberately close to persuade you to get on the path.  I nearly kicked a couple of 4x4s.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #31 on: 28 April, 2008, 01:24:19 pm »
I'm seeking data with which to compare the incidence of cyclist deaths/injury caused by motorised traffic on the road, with the incidence of death/injury from any and all causes on segregated paths.
I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

Anyway, looks as though there isn't any, that we're aware of.

I'm not aware of any. 

It could be tricky to collect.  A lot of the segregated path injuries are likely to be minor - bloody scrapes caused by low-speed collisions and dog leads and so on.  Those *are* serious enough to deter someone from using the facility, but they won't get reported to the police and they won't, mostly, go to A&E either.  The moderate injuries, the collarbones and teeth, they will go to A&E but they're minor injuries so don't appear on KSI stats.

One would expect the KSI stats for segregated paths to be tiny.  There's not the kinetic energy present to do massive trauma in most circumstances.

Here comes the risk assessment: in my experience the high likelihood of minor, painful, expensive and annoying injury on segregated paths versus the low likelihood of all that plus the very small risk of KSI on the roads, makes the roads my preferred route.

Novice riders overestimate the risk of KSI on the roads.  I think you have to actually have a road crash with a motor vehicle before you really believe in your gut that you're not a dead man the second a car touches you. 
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #32 on: 28 April, 2008, 04:01:30 pm »
I'm seeking data with which to compare the incidence of cyclist deaths/injury caused by motorised traffic on the road, with the incidence of death/injury from any and all causes on segregated paths.
I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

Anyway, looks as though there isn't any, that we're aware of.

I'm not aware of any. 

It could be tricky to collect.  A lot of the segregated path injuries are likely to be minor - bloody scrapes caused by low-speed collisions and dog leads and so on.  Those *are* serious enough to deter someone from using the facility, but they won't get reported to the police and they won't, mostly, go to A&E either.  The moderate injuries, the collarbones and teeth, they will go to A&E but they're minor injuries so don't appear on KSI stats.

One would expect the KSI stats for segregated paths to be tiny.  There's not the kinetic energy present to do massive trauma in most circumstances.

Here comes the risk assessment: in my experience the high likelihood of minor, painful, expensive and annoying injury on segregated paths versus the low likelihood of all that plus the very small risk of KSI on the roads, makes the roads my preferred route.

Novice riders overestimate the risk of KSI on the roads.  I think you have to actually have a road crash with a motor vehicle before you really believe in your gut that you're not a dead man the second a car touches you. 

What does exist (I think - I haven't got any references, though), is data on the sites of on-road KSI accidents. The vast majority of these occur at junctions, where conflicting priorities and the sheer processing load of looking in several directions at once, increases the odds of somebody making a mistake.

Now, most cycle paths significantly increase the number of junctions which have to be negotiated. They also invariably cede priority to the traffic on the road where these junctions occur, so it's not unreasonable to conclude that a cycle path will be more dangerous.

Consider the common example of the shared-use pavement cyclepath: Whether you're on the road or the path, the risk points are the junctions with the side roads (as already observed, being hit from behind is actually quite rare).

1) If you're on the road, you have priority over the side roads, and you are visable to traffic from behind - the main danger is the left-hook, closely followed by by the smidsy. To avoid these, you only have to look ahead, and be aware of traffic on your right.

2) If, on the other hand, you follow the cyclepath, traffic turning onto and off the main road both have priority. Traffic waiting to pull out of the junction blocks your progress, and you have to look in three directions at once (left, ahead and back over your shoulder) to see if it's clear to proceed. Finally, traffic turning into the junction will not be looking for fast moving bikes crossing the junction, and drivers pulling up at the side road will be watching the carriageway for hazards, not the pavement.

3) The above also applies to driveways, as RZ mentions above. Accept, of course, that at a driveway the cyclist is not likely to be doing shoulder checks for turning vehicles.  :-[

Is it any wonder that cycle paths are considered significantly more dangerous than the road?
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #33 on: 28 April, 2008, 05:48:22 pm »
Quote
Is it any wonder that cycle paths are considered significantly more dangerous than the road?

But why doesn’t this happen in other Northern European counties?
Imo it’s because the law is there, and used to protect the most vulnerable road users, unlike the UK. I agree 100% with the situations you mention, what’s the point of a cycle path/lane that doesn’t give priority to a cyclist.
One of the main reasons many of my journeys on bike are made is because I can get from A to B as quick as I can in a car, if that’s not going to be the case and I am going to have to ‘not undertake’ for example, I might as well just use the car.
Please, please, please to the planners of these paths take a look at out neighbouring countries and see how it’s done properly! There really isn’t anything wrong with a properly designed path and the laws to enforce it.

oldcobblers

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #34 on: 28 April, 2008, 06:08:41 pm »
If you're after numbers, a post in Dave Moulton's Bike Blog might be of interest.  OK the numbers are USA based, but interesting reading nonetheless.
http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/cyclists-live-longer.html

Another blog to read is the Copenhagenize one:
http://www.copenhagenize.com/
the writer has interesting views on segregation
His other blog is a bit lighter, but still a fun read with some interesting views (in more ways than one):
http://copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/


Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #35 on: 29 April, 2008, 08:19:46 am »
There really isn’t anything wrong with a properly designed path and the laws to enforce it.

As has been said before, this is not the case.  Cycle paths have significant problems even in the Netherlands, for example.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

oldcobblers

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #36 on: 29 April, 2008, 01:00:16 pm »
There really isn’t anything wrong with a properly designed path and the laws to enforce it.

As has been said before, this is not the case.  Cycle paths have significant problems even in the Netherlands, for example.
Having cycled in the Netherlands and not noticed these "significant problems" personally, could you expand this statement, please.

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #37 on: 29 April, 2008, 01:25:10 pm »
Given your previous on the subject, I think there's probably little point in debating with you.  The details are out there if your mind is open.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #38 on: 29 April, 2008, 01:38:52 pm »
There is old research on the Red Routes in Milton Keynes that showed more injuries on the Red routes than the roads.

Or something like that
It is simpler than it looks.

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #39 on: 29 April, 2008, 02:39:42 pm »
There really isn’t anything wrong with a properly designed path and the laws to enforce it.

As has been said before, this is not the case.  Cycle paths have significant problems even in the Netherlands, for example.

There will always be a problem at junctions for cyclists, I am not denying that. The thing is, as said by you, there are a far greater number of people cycling in those countries. Something must be right for that to happen.

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #40 on: 29 April, 2008, 02:47:22 pm »
Ah yes.  The cycle lanes are what get people out there cycling.   ::-)
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #41 on: 29 April, 2008, 02:53:22 pm »
Ah yes.  The cycle lanes are what get people out there cycling.   ::-)

They did seem quite popular when I was there  ::-)

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #42 on: 29 April, 2008, 02:58:54 pm »
No more popular than the roads with no cycle lanes, or the hundreds of roadies who'd use the road anyway and not the cycle lanes.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #43 on: 29 April, 2008, 03:01:10 pm »
No more popular than the roads with no cycle lanes, or the hundreds of roadies who'd use the road anyway and not the cycle lanes.

Like I said previously, you also need the laws to protect you  ::-)

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #44 on: 29 April, 2008, 03:31:04 pm »
Even the laws here are perfectly good.  What's missing is the enforcement, although even that would only make a small difference.

What's needed is the cultural norm of riding a bike that exists over there and the numbers of cyclists, which would make this place cycling utopia.  But not cycle lanes IMO.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #45 on: 29 April, 2008, 03:46:27 pm »
Take a step back for a second.

Do we need laws to protect cyclists?  Yes, but not as the first thing.
Do we need cycle lanes and paths?  Yes, but not as a priority matter.


What is really needed, and is starting to happen, is for the transport policy to move away from "we need roads to allow cars to transport people" and towards "shared space".


This allows for, in urban areas, quiet streets where cyclists can use the roads quite safely; and in fact are encouraged to do so for short journeys so in turn make the local environment safer through reduced car traffic.

Then lanes and paths need to be considered where traffic reduction/calming/junction improvements are not enough, or where they can create wonderful shortcuts.  These are the paths that in the main are seen in bike focussed countries (the safe streets don't get noticed as they don't look any different, they're just used by cyclists).

Yes the law could be looked at for ways to give cyclists greater protection, but if you actually look at it we're already fully covered by the law as long as we obey the road markings etc.  The only slight difference between some European countries and here is in the way that at present in the UK it is down to all parties to attribute cause (and so the cyclist can find it hard sometimes to fight the car driver's insurance company lawyers) whereas abroad it is down to the car driver to prove they were not at fault.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #46 on: 29 April, 2008, 04:52:09 pm »
The only slight difference between some European countries and here is in the way that at present in the UK it is down to all parties to attribute cause (and so the cyclist can find it hard sometimes to fight the car driver's insurance company lawyers) whereas abroad it is down to the car driver to prove they were not at fault.
You say a "slight difference", but I think it's a big deal; drivers would start to realise that hitting a cyclists will ALWAYS have a down side for them.
We should fight harder for this law.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #47 on: 29 April, 2008, 04:59:14 pm »
I agree with Matt. This was mentioned in the media a few years ago, there was outrage, mainly due to the fact that motorist misunderstood the proposal and believed they would automatically be guilty if they hit a cyclist

Domestique

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #48 on: 29 April, 2008, 05:42:52 pm »
Quote
Even the laws here are perfectly good.

Thats why the CTC offer legal representation as one of the main reasons for joining. 
When you ride a bike you have no option but to break the law by say undertaking stationary traffic, no matter how slowly or carefull you do it. Any accident and thats down to you. Sorry Mike but thats not right. The law doesnt cover cyclists nearly enough imo.

Re: Cycle paths and increased risk.
« Reply #49 on: 29 April, 2008, 05:49:01 pm »
I may have worded my previous post slightly woollyly (and even that's not spelt right!)

I blame work pressure.  Sorry.