Author Topic: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?  (Read 10317 times)

Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« on: 10 August, 2013, 04:00:07 pm »
So, by using a cunning arrangement of set square, machinist's clamp and vernier gauge I've ascertained that the Truvative  chainset I have in the Pompino has a chainline 47mm away from the centre-line of the frame.

Having measured up the Goldtec hob of my new wheels, I've worked out that I need 4mm's worth of spacers to go on behind the sprocket, to bring it into line with chain ring.
The only problem with this is that it leaves only around 3mm's worth of thread on hub available for the 6mm or so of thread on the sprocket.
To me, that's a recipe for a disaster of the stripped thread sort.

So, my question is - how many mm's is it acceptable to have the chain line off the ideal in order to preserve (and engage with) the thread on the hub.

Second question is - does the cog have to go on 'boss first'? Or is there any reason why the boss cannot be facing out, as opposed to facing towards the centre of the hub?

TIA

Chris N

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #1 on: 10 August, 2013, 04:31:04 pm »
A couple of mm out would be ok, but 4 sounds like a lot.  I'd want ALL of the threads on a fixed cog engaged on the hub, not some.

Can you move the chainring inwards instead?

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #2 on: 10 August, 2013, 04:34:48 pm »
Can you move the chainring inwards instead?
I'd look into that because my Pompino chain line, with OEM Truvativ chainset, is 42mm. I understand this to be the norm.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #3 on: 10 August, 2013, 04:43:04 pm »
A couple of mm out would be ok, but 4 sounds like a lot.  I'd want ALL of the threads on a fixed cog engaged on the hub, not some.

Can you move the chainring inwards instead?

Don't think I can, Chris.
It's a Truvativ octalink jobbee (I think) - I don't see anything spacer-like on the drive side which could be removed. Or is there another way of shoving the chainring / axle across, that I don't know about?
I can lose some of the spacers, and get almost all of the threads on the cog to engage on the hub - if I remove the next spacer the cog will move so far down the threads on the hub, that the lock-ring will not butt up against it.
Equally undesirable. No?

Sorry - wasn't clear earlier...
I need 6mm's worth of spacers to bring it into perfect line - that leaves me with only 4 or so mm of thread on the hub available for the 6 that there are on the cog.
By losing a couple of mm of the spacers, I should be able to engage with most of the thread on the cog.
Make sense?

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #4 on: 10 August, 2013, 04:44:01 pm »
Can you move the chainring inwards instead?
I'd look into that because my Pompino chain line, with OEM Truvativ chainset, is 42mm. I understand this to be the norm.

Lemmee measure that again...
Measure twice, cut once. And all that......

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #5 on: 10 August, 2013, 04:57:35 pm »
47mm
I'm going to dismantle the BB.
I've only ever had one of these apart once, and that was to bin it and replace it with an external one - so I wasn't really paying attention to what goes on in there  ::-)

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #6 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:09:29 pm »
Don't know that chainset, but is it possible to put the chainring on the inside of the spider? As in, leaving the BB, spider etc as is and refitting the chainring rather than moving the whole BB etc over.

The annoying thing is, if Goldtec hadn't decided to change their hubs to a normal 42 mm chainline, their old design might have been spot on as it was about 46 or 47 mm ish.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #7 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:33:51 pm »
Shorter bottom bracket? If it's an Isis jobbie, they do come in different sizes. Assuming there's enough clearance for the cranks and chainring, of course.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #8 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:34:36 pm »
Why is your crankset different from Delthebike's, that's what puzzles me.

The only reason I can think of for the OEM cranks to be at 47 mm is if it's needed to allow big tyre clearance and associated bent-out chainstays, but that can't be the case if DtB has a set-up that is 42 mm.

At least the Goldtecs now have a standard chainline, so the back end is fine in terms of finding things to match. Now it is a matter of getting a crank / BB set-up that is also standard. 

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #9 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:38:28 pm »
Or spacers under the chainring to push it in a bit more?

I'd rather not go putting spacers under the cog.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #10 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:42:03 pm »
Why is your crankset different from Delthebike's, that's what puzzles me.
My bike was bought new I think Jurek bought his pre-loved, maybe the original owner changed the BB/Chainset?
Mine is still set up with the original crankset, Truvativ Elita, and the GXP BB was replaced with another GXP BB.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #11 on: 10 August, 2013, 05:48:01 pm »
Having removed it, the BB is actually an FSA Platinum Pro. Axle length is 119mm.
There's zero option for moving it inwardly.

Spacers under the chainring?

Sounds kakky but I might give it a go - in the absence of other solutions - I don't like the idea of spacers behind the cog/ cog not having enough threads either.

I'm at the point where there's a good likelihood of something getting airborne through the window......

Meh!

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #12 on: 10 August, 2013, 06:06:21 pm »
It looks like I may have some leeway by fitting a BB with a 113mm axle (I don't think there'll be an issue with chainring / chainstay clearance).
I've just re-assembled it and eyeballed it - I think it'll be ok.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/fsa-platinum-isis-bottom-bracket/#tabBuyNow

I think that might be the way to go.

Your collective thoughts, before I click on 'Buy now' please.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #13 on: 10 August, 2013, 06:11:01 pm »
A couple of mm out would be ok, but 4 sounds like a lot.  I'd want ALL of the threads on a fixed cog engaged on the hub, not some.

Can you move the chainring inwards instead?

Don't think I can, Chris.
It's a Truvativ octalink jobbee (I think) - I don't see anything spacer-like on the drive side which could be removed. Or is there another way of shoving the chainring / axle across, that I don't know about?
I can lose some of the spacers, and get almost all of the threads on the cog to engage on the hub - if I remove the next spacer the cog will move so far down the threads on the hub, that the lock-ring will not butt up against it.
Equally undesirable. No?

Sorry - wasn't clear earlier...
I need 6mm's worth of spacers to bring it into perfect line - that leaves me with only 4 or so mm of thread on the hub available for the 6 that there are on the cog.
By losing a couple of mm of the spacers, I should be able to engage with most of the thread on the cog.
Make sense?

Not 100%, but that's probably me. Anyway I'll chuck in my 2p anyway.

1. The lock ring does not need to butt up against the cog. After you've ridden it a few km it won't, even if it did in the first place. Better still just take it off as it's one less/fewer thing to worry about.
2. To measure the chainline take the chain off and use a bit of thread tight against the chainring taken back to the cog.
3. If it doesn't look spot on, take it the other side and see if it's different  ;)
4. If it's still out, ride it for a while and see if it's rattly
5. If it's rattly, ride it a bit more, it'll settle down.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #14 on: 10 August, 2013, 06:13:57 pm »
It looks like I may have some leeway by fitting a BB with a 113mm axle (I don't think there'll be an issue with chainring / chainstay clearance).
I've just re-assembled it and eyeballed it - I think it'll be ok.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/fsa-platinum-isis-bottom-bracket/#tabBuyNow

I think that might be the way to go.

Your collective thoughts, before I click on 'Buy now' please.

My collective thoughts are that 119 mm sounds huge, so yes, but don't forget that 119-113 is a 3 mm change if they are both symmetrical BBs
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #15 on: 10 August, 2013, 06:17:31 pm »
which of course they are cos it's octalink, doh.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #16 on: 10 August, 2013, 06:20:49 pm »
It looks like I may have some leeway by fitting a BB with a 113mm axle (I don't think there'll be an issue with chainring / chainstay clearance).
I've just re-assembled it and eyeballed it - I think it'll be ok.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/fsa-platinum-isis-bottom-bracket/#tabBuyNow

I think that might be the way to go.

Your collective thoughts, before I click on 'Buy now' please.

My collective thoughts are that 119 mm sounds huge, so yes, but don't forget that 119-113 is a 3 mm change if they are both symmetrical BBs

I've a feeling that in reality it's a 118 axle - I cannot see FSA listing a 119 one anywhere - I'm probably including crud in my measurement.....
That 3mm is exactly what I'm looking for to line things up.....

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #17 on: 11 August, 2013, 07:51:20 pm »
Chainline is always solvable unless the chainring is going to hit the chainstay (a big problem when fixing an MTB frame) and I have worked out some very odd combinations.

You don't want spacers under the sprocket on a *fixed* hub.  On a freewheel hub used as a fixed hub, it is OK - there is much more thread.  Move the chainring in instead, by putting it on the inside of the spider, which usually reduces chainline by about 5mm*, or by using a shorter BB.  Also look for a fixed sprocket that can be reversed to give a different chainline, like a Surly.

The target is to get within 1mm, and the only good way to measure chainline straightness is with a 600mm steel rule on the ring and sprocket, chain off (use the edge of the ruie, don't hold it flat against the ring as it will flex and give a misleading result).


*I understand this is deeply unfashionable in LFGSS circles but it is just as technically sound as putting it on the outside, especially if you are using a made-for-double crankset like most people
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #18 on: 12 August, 2013, 12:38:24 pm »
Decided, after all of that, to go for a 108mm BB axle (the 113mm one can go back to Wiggle) as I think that'll be closer to my needs.

These wheels are, for something supposedly so simple, turning into a matter of mass complexity  :facepalm: and cost  :(

simonp

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #19 on: 14 August, 2013, 01:40:54 am »
My 135mm OLN Pompino had 47mm chain line. When I replaced cranks and BB at Fixie specialist LBS (they claim) I pointed out the chain line was unusual and let them sort it.

Come time to replace the wheel due to hub being worn out I got a Goldtech hub with 135mm axle and 42mm chain line so bought 107mm BB to match. Then take it all apart to find 107mm BB in the frame. It had a 42mm chain line all along.  :facepalm:

Moral: never trust a bike mechanic. And don't worry too much about chain line. Maybe. YMMV.

simonp

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #20 on: 14 August, 2013, 01:43:22 am »
I hit 199rpm with it like that and rode an entire SR series. Plus 1000s of other miles.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #21 on: 14 August, 2013, 06:44:17 am »
If you use a full-bushing chain it gets very crackly with a chainline a few mm out.  With a SRAM PC-1 or something you might never notice, although the risk of throwing a chain is increased.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #22 on: 14 August, 2013, 01:13:18 pm »
108mm Isis axle from Chain Reaction arrived this morning with, guess what?
Only the fixed cup!!!! No LH cup ffs!
CR want me to return it to them for a full refund while they carry out a stock investigation, just in case they're all like that.
I have said that I'm not returning it. I need to get my bike back on the road. I can, in the interim, make use of the LH cup from the old BB while they conduct their stock investigation - when that is completed they can send me the missing cup.
Eventually they agreed to this, saying that I should have the missing cup within 48 hrs or, if they don't have one, a £5.00 voucher.
Palaver!

Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #23 on: 17 August, 2013, 07:27:11 pm »
All sorted now, with a chain line to die for.
My one concession was having to fit a spacer between the lock ring and the cog as the lock ring was bottoming out on the cog thread and not making yer actual contact with the cog itself  ::-)
Does anyone see any issues with that?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Chainline - How much deviation therefrom is acceptable?
« Reply #24 on: 17 August, 2013, 07:41:11 pm »
Are you sure the lockring is the correct thread?  Annoyingly, there are two standards for it.  The wrong type of lockring would bind early when being screwed onto a larger thread.

http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/Track_Cog_5.16.05.pdf
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.