e-brevets what's the deal?

[GdS]

I had a couple of enquiries about offering this for my events. To me it seems a good idea for the rider but how does it work for the finish control? does the rider just flash the phone at the end and it says "ride completed"? and what happens with BRMs that require a card sending off?

I presume it requires a data connection with location enabled for the whole ride.

I'm also concerned about endless emails before the event from riders who can't get the app to work on their phone 

[Thomas Spence]

QR Code to start and finish.

Think you would only need GPS enabled at the control points, then you register once you get there and it'll either validate or say you are slightly too far away (sometimes takes a few seconds to register your correct location)

Was pretty straightforward on the one event I've done using it.

[alfapete]

As an organiser it works very well, and is virtually no extra work. And it's becoming hugely popular amongst the riders who absolutely LOVE it. Dave Allison is very responsive to any queries you might have pre-event and I've had no queries from the riders at all.

At the start riders still have to collect a brevet card and at the end you view their App briefly to confirm they've visited each control and remember to write down their finish time (or you may have no other record of them having completed). You can validate the almost blank card at once. Can't see any reason NOT to offer it, especially as it becomes more popular.

As for BRM's - I'm not sure that the validation 'counts' for this but I'm sure someone will be along to answer this soon.

Just a thought - if you ride an event using it you'll learn everything you need to know before commiting your own event to offering it, which is what I did - you're also in a better position to answer any questions on the day.

[pineapple bod]

QR Code to start and finish.

I've ridden a few events with e-brevet but only once have i had to scan a QR.  it's up to the organiser.

You might find this useful
https://www.audax.uk/media/2285/ebriders.pdf

[αdαmsκι]

I've offered it on my events and it works well.  Some comments below

1) The app does not replace the brevet card, but is another way of providing proof of passage. When the rider finishes you can view the times they were at each location on the app and mark these onto their brevet card. If it's BRM (or 300+ km) the brevet card then gets sent off to Cathy. (I'll normally make a note on the card with "e brevet" just as a heads up to explain why info controls may have a time but no answer.)

2) It's also possible for the rider to upload their times to the e-brevet platform, which I find is more useful when it's a postal finish.

3) The phone can be on airplane mode between controls. When the rider gets to the control they need to open the app and check in for each location. This is based on the location of the phone, which sometimes may show the rider being XX km away but that's normally because the phone location hasn't updated. The rider just needs to wait ~30 secs.

4) I've no problem with a rider using the e brevet app AND collecting receipts / answering info questions.

5) If there's a control where someone is stamping brevet cards it's worthwhile setting that control using a QR code that the rider scans rather than using the location of the phone. This is because otherwise riders may check in using their phone but not tell you they're present and you are left wondering what's happened to those riders.

6) To set up the ride you need access to the event admin part of https://eb.audax.uk/ website. You drop pins for the locations of the controls and set up a radius around which the location works. For an info control that radius may be 200 m, for a town control you may opt for a larger radius.

I realise that's a load of information but as often is the case it's easier playing with things rather than reading the instructions. Oh, and it works for perms too. And there's no need for you, as the organiser, to have the app. You just need to set everything up via the https://eb.audax.uk/ website.

Hope that helps.

[Lightning Phil]

I’ll try not to repeat what others have said.

Instead of collecting receipts and answering infos, the rider registers at each control location via e-brevet on their smartphone.  You can’t see this at the time. You can only see the proof of passage evidence once they’ve uploaded their completed e-brevet at the finish.

Once the rider has registered at all the controls in sequence , including the finish control.  They should upload the brevet for your event.  This uploads it to https://eb.audax.uk . The brevet will now show as uploaded on their phone.

They should hand over their signed / completed physical brevet card.

If you have a suitable device at the finish (such as iPad) then you can look at a (e-brevet) finishers list in https://eb.audax.uk and bring up their timings through every control, plus their elapsed time. A control will either show as they passed through within expected timings, were ahead of expected timings, were behind expected timings, skipped. You should query the latter timings or skipped with the rider. For skipped they should have alternate proof of passage such a receipt or answered info in brevet.

On the physical brevet card. I write e-brevet in the first control box.  Then I write the timings from e-brevet in the commercial/ full control boxes.  I don’t put anything in the info control boxes.  I initial the timings and my annotations as usual.  I use the elapsed from e-brevet to write the elapsed on the physical card.

It’s all very easy and nearly always quicker than working through receipts. If, of course, you can bring up the timings on a suitable device at the finish.


I have a simple PDF guide for e-brevet I email out to riders. It explains what to do in case they get problems and ensures they turn up with e-brevet installed and the brevet for your event already downloaded.  It’s a supplement to the full guide.

E-brevet works for BRM events. You need to mark event as BRM when setting up on https://eb.audax.uk .   You still need to issue and collect physical brevet card as per traditional means. Fill it in as usual, but using the e-brevet for the proof of passage detail.

I’ve offered e-brevet on all my events since 2020.  It sees high take up, Particularly amongst new audaxers.

[GdS]

Thanks All; think I'll wait until it actually replaces paper brevet cards for those who use it on calendar events.

[Wycombewheeler]

I had a couple of enquiries about offering this for my events. To me it seems a good idea for the rider but how does it work for the finish control? does the rider just flash the phone at the end and it says "ride completed"? and what happens with BRMs that require a card sending off?

I presume it requires a data connection with location enabled for the whole ride.

I'm also concerned about endless emails before the event from riders who can't get the app to work on their phone 

the app downloads a series of co-ordinates for the control points
at the control points the phone needs gps signal (I've never been anywhere this wasn't possible"
At the finish the app uploads that the ride was complete.

There is certainly no requirement for data connection for the entire ride, the app is not checking against mandatory routing.

From a BRM point of view, I ASSUME the rider copies the times from the app to their brevet card, and the controller stamps them off, the same as checking receipt times.

[GdS]

I don't really understand how phones work with GPS, If I use Google Maps Go it won't even show where I am without a data / WiFi connection

[ravenbait]

I don't really understand how phones work with GPS, If I use Google Maps Go it won't even show where I am without a data / WiFi connection

You would need to have the relevant area stored on your phone. It needs data or wifi for the map, not for the position.

Sam

[Wycombewheeler]

I don't really understand how phones work with GPS, If I use Google Maps Go it won't even show where I am without a data / WiFi connection

the phone is looking for the map on the data connection, the location is known, but without data it is just a point in blank space.

Garmin edge has the map download/installed, so it doesn't need data connection.

The e-brevet app doesn't care what the roads in the area look like it runs a very simple calc: is location A (previously downloaded control location) within 20m of location B (current location).

simple trigonometry of easting and northing of the two sets of co-ordinates, then it tells you how far you are and in which direction (as I recall) because telling you that you have not reached the control yet is not helpful if you have already gone past it.

[Touche]

With zero knowledge of how phones etc really operate except my non apple phone just does I have had no issues.
I have done a few Essex rides using E-Brevet without any issues except the occasional need to close the app and
reopen it. I assume this is allowing the gps to catch up.
The organisers have however had a knowledgeable person at the start and finish to deal with muppets like myself and
explain / check its sorted.

[Lightning Phil]

You don’t need to close the E-Brevet app. Just tap cancel for control, wait a minute or so, then try again.  When you install and first use E-Brevet it’ll ask you for location permissions.  You may opt for anytime , only when using app, or never.  The last one will stop E-Brevet dead.   The second option means E-Brevet will only request location from the phone when you open it at a control.  If nothing else has requested location since the last control, then the tapping too quickly on the control may mean E-Brevet has an out of date location.  You don’t need to close E-Brevet. Just tap cancel for control, leave app open and wait a minute or two to get an up to date location, then try again. 

Older phones with old versions of Android / iOS can have problems with E-Brevet not waking up the phone’s hardware gps chip.  In those cases, opening something like Google maps or OS locate to wake-up the gps can be successful to update current location.

I used to have an old android phone when I first started testing E-Brevet for my perms, and cancelling and trying again was order of the day, if too keen as soon as I reached a control. With my newer iPhone 8 (but latest iOS) it’s generally up to date with location as soon as reach control.

Dave is making a change so that the app tells you if the location E-Brevet has is more than 30 seconds old.  Thus it should be obvious if it’s just using old location data and you need to wait , or you’re genuinely at the wrong location, or your phone gps is fantasising about where it is.

Edit - Just looked at App Store and that change to E-Brevet was released last week.

[trundle]

This thread is great - I had missed e-brevet being made available for iphone too. Downloaded now!

[Flatlander]

As I rider I generally prefer e-brevet to have to buy some nothing at a control point or incrase a heap of cash to get a receipt at an ATM, not all give paper for balances and ATMs are dying. Like many I have little/no bike security and my bike isn't the cheapest, although it was less than 1/4 of the value of some of the racers on Martins event -  Carbon Cervelos/Giants/Specialized with electronic DuraAce and no cabling. -Its not about the value, it is about having something to ride to the finish/home on . Mines a shiny looking 2 year old titanium which replace a fracturing 1998 steel frame but still uses its 9 speed Camapag or a 5 year old steel with alternator/rack running 1996 8 speed campag so perhaps I shouldn't worry.

I like some controls in villages or even towns where you can sit outside or are well away from surbubia which significantly reduces risk as well as being very pleasent. Didn't realise it was possible to use Q-codes at those. They could be made mandatory for organised controls so the organised/helpers know whats happening and when they can stop drinking/ go home. Q-codes seem to be mandatory at starts now but only saw them beginning of this year, or was it the end of last. Had me confused at an ACME event and had to go back to the HQ once I realised, but I think it is a good idea especially at non-BRMs without cardboard.

Brevet cards are faster at info controls where you just remember the answer rather than having to get a location. Getting a location can take up to a few minutes depending on the phones quality/age and whether location is turned off between controls to save battery. I find starting starting Google Maps reduces the time it takes for a sleeping phone to get a location.

I think some organisers allow a mixture of e-brevet and card brevet as long as every control point is covered. Thats reduces battery worry as long as enough backup is available to turn it on at the finish. E-brevets could be another reason to use the dynamo or perhaps just to replace my 7 year old phone.   

[citoyen]

As a rider, I am a big fan of the e-brevet. Yet to use it as an organiser.

From the riding point of view, the only caveat is that you need to make sure you are alert to the locations of control points because without following the route sheet, it's easy to miss them, especially info controls. The easiest way to do this is add them as waypoints to the GPS track - the ever-helpful Adamski includes waypoints in the tracks for his events, which is fine as long as you use the supplied track and don't do something clever like create your own... 

[GdS]

I should add that from an orgs' POV I'm usually either riding on the day or cooking hot dogs for the riders somewhere so it's not me who will be having to grapple with e-brevets. Although maybe easier than trying to coax info control answers out of riders who are not bothered about validation.

(DNVs are my pet hate because they can reduce a very healthy field to a much smaller number of actual finishers on the AUK website; also I can't see those same people bothering with e-brevets)

[Wycombewheeler]

As a rider, I am a big fan of the e-brevet. Yet to use it as an organiser.

From the riding point of view, the only caveat is that you need to make sure you are alert to the locations of control points because without following the route sheet, it's easy to miss them, especially info controls. The easiest way to do this is add them as waypoints to the GPS track - the ever-helpful Adamski includes waypoints in the tracks for his events, which is fine as long as you use the supplied track and don't do something clever like create your own... 

equally possible to miss them with a paper brevet card as well though. with the right gps prep or at least memorising the right bit of the route sheet it should be fine.

[GdS]

As a rider, I am a big fan of the e-brevet. Yet to use it as an organiser.

From the riding point of view, the only caveat is that you need to make sure you are alert to the locations of control points because without following the route sheet, it's easy to miss them, especially info controls. The easiest way to do this is add them as waypoints to the GPS track - the ever-helpful Adamski includes waypoints in the tracks for his events, which is fine as long as you use the supplied track and don't do something clever like create your own... 

I have to create my own Route from the track as I use an e-trex, do Waypoints show up on that? (only one way to find out I suppose)

[Lightning Phil]

If an organiser includes them, they can also add proximity alerts to waypoints which will alert (with tones and pop up) on an eTrex.

[GdS]

If an organiser includes them, they can also add proximity alerts to waypoints which will alert (with tones and pop up) on an eTrex.

yes this works on mine for all the Via points I need to add in order to force the route the way I want to go;

if I download a gpx from RWG to Basecamp can I add Waypoints to the track there for infos etc?

[Lightning Phil]

Yes, you can add waypoints in Basecamp.

[Wycombewheeler]

With perms it is often allowable to start/finish at any control. Is this possible with the e-brevet, or does the e-brevet effectively mandate using the official start point?

[Lightning Phil]

It depends on what the organiser allows.  But if they allow the full list of variations you can start / finish anywhere (including between official controls) and go in either direction.

[bhoot]

And if you customise your brevet as Phil says, then when you download to your phone it will show you the controls in the right order for you, with calculated open/close times.