Author Topic: Frame size  (Read 2418 times)

Frame size
« on: 10 August, 2019, 01:04:50 pm »
I am after for a bike for my partner.
My partner is 4ft 11. What would be best size frame?

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: Frame size
« Reply #1 on: 10 August, 2019, 01:38:16 pm »
I am after for a bike for my partner.
My partner is 4ft 11. What would be best size frame?
It depends. Probably easier to go to a Local Bike Shop to try some for size, as different makes, even although they have the same frame size, may have different geometries.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #2 on: 10 August, 2019, 03:01:48 pm »
I'm 5'1" and have had to fudge a 43cm 700c Dawes Galaxy to fit me tolerably well (butterfly bars, short stem). So, likely smaller than that! Be warned that the sizes quoted in this range are mostly b*llocks though, as things cease to be scaled and/or reported in an entirely authentic manner.

Having recently gone the bike fit and custom build route, I'm still often shocked by how much smaller the bike designed to fit me is compared to the ones I've been riding for several years. I'm also still adjusting to the realisation of the extent to which the bike industry isn't catering to shorter riders.

An Islabikes demo might be an efficient way of trying out a range of frames designed for smaller riders. 26" wheels might also be something to consider if handling's important.

Mostly just try things out though - occasional pootling might allow for compromises/budgets that wouldn't work for longer or faster riding.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #3 on: 10 August, 2019, 03:07:53 pm »
I'm 5'1" and have had to fudge a 43cm 700c Dawes Galaxy to fit me tolerably well (butterfly bars, short stem). So, likely smaller than that! Be warned that the sizes quoted in this range are mostly b*llocks though, as things cease to be scaled in an entirely authentic manner.

Having recently gone the bike fit and custom build route, I'm still often shocked by how much smaller the bike designed to fit me is compared to the ones I've been riding for several years. I'm also still adjusting to the realisation of the extent to which the bike industry isn't catering to shorter riders.

An Islabikes demo might be an efficient way of trying out a range of frames designed for smaller riders. 26" wheels might also be something to consider if handling's important.

Mostly just try things out though - occasional pootling might allow for compromises/budgets that wouldn't work for longer or faster riding.
Nikki has it pretty much spot on.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Frame size
« Reply #4 on: 10 August, 2019, 04:05:55 pm »

In funny units I'm about 5'6". I ride a size S, or XS frame.

When it comes to smaller size frames it's really a gamble, not to mention that many bike companies just don't go small enough.

Goto a bike shop with a decent range and try them for size.

J
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http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Frame size
« Reply #5 on: 10 August, 2019, 04:52:05 pm »
I'm 5'1" and have had to fudge a 43cm 700c Dawes Galaxy to fit me tolerably well (butterfly bars, short stem). So, likely smaller than that! Be warned that the sizes quoted in this range are mostly b*llocks though, as things cease to be scaled in an entirely authentic manner.

Having recently gone the bike fit and custom build route, I'm still often shocked by how much smaller the bike designed to fit me is compared to the ones I've been riding for several years. I'm also still adjusting to the realisation of the extent to which the bike industry isn't catering to shorter riders.

An Islabikes demo might be an efficient way of trying out a range of frames designed for smaller riders. 26" wheels might also be something to consider if handling's important.

Mostly just try things out though - occasional pootling might allow for compromises/budgets that wouldn't work for longer or faster riding.
Nikki has it pretty much spot on.
IIRC Nikki has negative standover clearance on her Dawes. So, yeah...

I do know a genuine dwarf, as in an adult man with normal appearance and proportions but about 4' tall. He rides a largeish child's bike, which seems to fit him in terms of reach but his hips rock as if the bike's too big even though the saddle is as low as it can go. So it's not just size, geometry might need to be different too.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #6 on: 10 August, 2019, 05:20:22 pm »

Goto a bike shop with a decent range and try them for size.

J

That. Though it may be difficult finding a shop with a decent range at the small end of the spectrum.

What sort of bike is your partner looking for - road, hybrid, MTB, something else?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Frame size
« Reply #7 on: 10 August, 2019, 05:22:19 pm »
That. Though it may be difficult finding a shop with a decent range at the small end of the spectrum.

Yeah, I've had that rant many a time. What do you mean you're a woman that wants something other than an S or an M, and wait? You want it in a colour other than pink?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Frame size
« Reply #8 on: 12 August, 2019, 04:07:36 am »
I am after for a bike for my partner.
My partner is 4ft 11. What would be best size frame?

High quality children's bike with 26" wheels? Is a custom frame in the budget?

Re: Frame size
« Reply #9 on: 12 August, 2019, 08:44:34 am »
Sheena (mrs graculus) is four foot ten and three quarters (and boy, you better remember that 3/4).
After the too large bike she had ridden for years was past repair and modification she went on a search for a bike that really suited her. A long search was unable to come up with anything off the shelf.
Islabikes were simply in the wrong proportions, although the narrow handlebars were just right.
In the end the bullet was bit and a trip made to Chas. Roberts for a hand built bike which is spot on.
I'll take a tape measure to it when available.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #10 on: 12 August, 2019, 08:46:58 am »
I would recommend a GOOD bikefit. A Retul fit will give you a list of appropriate dimensions/frames. Overall height is not the best place to start really, leg and trunk lengths are more important.
The critical measurement is the top tube/ virtual top tube , then work on from there.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #11 on: 12 August, 2019, 08:58:25 am »
A bike fit done on a jig is probably a good investment (I've been happy with RETUL, there are other jig systems around). The key numbers are stack and reach - once you have that then you can start hunting for suitable bikes. It's probably even more important if the rider is inexperienced and/or outside the range that most LBS have for demo.
There are a lot of high quality kids bikes around now, and the 24" to 700c range is probably the best. They tend to be racing inspired (there are a lot of 'cross race bikes in these sizes) so the geometry might not suit the kind of riding you want to do, but they are worth considering if they do fit.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #12 on: 12 August, 2019, 09:12:29 am »
in terms of percentages, the proportion of adult males that won't fit (too big or too small) 'standard sized' bikes is very small. However a greater proportion of adult women fall outside this range, because average heights are that bit less.

 I daresay the big bike manufacturers are not losing any sleep over this; for them it amounts to some tiny fraction of a percent of lost sales, potentially. If they get their sums wrong (and they do) you end up with a load of XXL and XS bikes that have not sold and must be disposed of either at paper thin margins of profit or a loss.

The percentages may be small but that still leaves thousands and thousands of people who find it difficult to buy quality bikes.

The fundamental problem is that (on or off-road) the bicycle just works better if it has bigger wheels.  Even over 110 years ago this was reflected in the tyre sizes on offer; Dunlop standardised various 24", 26" and 28" wheel/rim sizes, many of which are still with us today. [For example what we know of as 700C sized rims with a 622mm bead seat were originally sold as 28 x 1-3/4" sized ones. ] In theory the full range of Dunlop sizes allowed most riders to be accommodated; the rims were varied slightly in size so that the rolling diameter of any 26" wheel would still be 26".  This meant that you had to decide what width tyres you wanted when you bought the bike, and made buying tyres a bit of a nightmare, too; in (say) 26" wheels, rim sizes of 597, 590, 584, 571 and 559mm all exist (each originally meant for just one width of tyre) and of course  nominally 26" tyres do not interchange between rims.

 Some rim sizes inevitably became more popular than others, economies of scale kicked in, and folk soon started to want different width tyres to fit their rims. Thus in 622 and 559mm there is a pretty good choice of tyres which fit those rims, even if frames which have these wheels fitted will limit the tyres that can actually be used.

However in the world of MTBs (and as a knock-on, all bikes) things have become worse; 559 wheels are now not so often found on quality machines.

So at 4-11" I think 559 wheels are going to be a good choice.  If you want something that looks more like a road bike then 571mm wheels might suit.  571mm rims were originally meant only for 26 x 1-3/4" tyres, but the rim size became adopted for smaller-wheeled racing bikes (with skinny tyres, rolling at about 24.5" overall diameter). At one time there was a good range of tyres available. Today the range of tyres is more limited but (mass produced) new bikes are still being made with this size of wheel and the retailers are obliged to sell tyres that fit them.  This means that for the foreseeable future 571mm wheels are still viable, and are usefully smaller than 622mm ones.

IIRC you can buy 571mm wheeled bikes in Decathlon; their XS road bikes (which really are XS) use this size wheel and may fit someone 4-11".  Worth a look.

[edit; I just checked and I can find little sign that they still sell bikes or tyres  using the 571 size.  They do sell a XXS sized road bike using 700C wheels which they claim is suitable for 5'-0" height though.]

Spa cycles have their own frames which are well-designed for smaller folk, but there's only so much you can do with standard sized wheels. I think 4-11" would be pushing it but its worth asking them too.

Chas Roberts has made some wonderful bikes for shorter folk but he is now retired I think.

cheers




Re: Frame size
« Reply #13 on: 12 August, 2019, 09:19:25 am »
Do be aware that, in the era of sloping top tubes, the old system of frame sizing has broken down. Therefore, having established that (for example) a 48cm from one manufacturer would fit, that tells you little about a different brand, because different firms measure size in different ways.

Ultimately the length of the frame (usually measured as the effective top-tube length) matters more, not least because different frames have different slopes.

So definitely go to a reliable shop that can help you with fit - preferably one recommended by others whom you trust.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #14 on: 12 August, 2019, 10:16:14 am »
Chas Roberts has made some wonderful bikes for shorter folk but he is now retired I think.

cheers
Yes, Chas. Roberts has retired; I put that in more as a historical reference. The bike he built for Sheena bike is her 'do anything bike' (commuting, shopping, touring, milder COR) based around an audax frame geometry (with step through frame and drops) with 700c wheels.
I agree with everything you say about this part of the market being so small that manufacturers are not interested.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Frame size
« Reply #15 on: 12 August, 2019, 10:33:59 am »

Canyon make XXS bikes for women, they use 584mm wheels for the smallest 2 sizes.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: Frame size
« Reply #16 on: 12 August, 2019, 11:47:10 am »
Madcyclist,

As others have mentioned, effective top tube length (sometimes called ETT) is more important than seattube length in the era of the sloping top tube. And as Brucey says, it looks like 700c would be impractical in a frame this small, so 559 would be a better choice of wheel size. You'll hear some people say that 559 is difficult to find, but this is the internet age where you can find almost anything.

There are formulae for calculating optimum seattube size based on leg length, though nowadays these give only a starting point (at best), due to the variations in top tube angle.

The simpler method is to find a small bike, try it for size and note the ETT length. That can become the benchmark for size.

Brands I've bought for short family members include Islabike and Cannondale Quick. Both have been fine. I own a couple of Dahons and have noticed they have relatively short ETTs. Always thought it's a design that would fit a small person. I believe Evans is a Dahon dealer.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Frame size
« Reply #17 on: 12 August, 2019, 12:01:29 pm »
Madcyclist,

As others have mentioned, effective top tube length (sometimes called ETT) is more important than seattube length in the era of the sloping top tube. And as Brucey says, it looks like 700c would be impractical in a frame this small, so 559 would be a better choice of wheel size.

There are formulae for calculating optimum seattube size based on leg length though nowadays these give only a starting point (at best), due to the variations in top tube angle.

The simpler method is find a small bike and for the rider to try it. That can then become your benchmark for size.

Brands I've bought for the short family members include Islabike and Cannondale Quick. Both have been fine. I own a couple of Dahons and have noticed they have relatively short ETTs. Always thought it's a design that would fit a small person. I believe Evans is a Dahon dealer.

The link to the wiggle sizing page from that page is the first time I've seen "Ape Index".
It's interesting to me because my reach always seems to be rather short compared to my height; resulting in my car seat being almost jackknifed and my seat post being rather extended on "56cm" frames.
My touring bike is a "58cm" and I ended up fitting a rather short stem, the bags usually slow the steering down enough.
Sadly the tape measure that is kicking around at work is a "BMI calculator" one so doesn't go long enough.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #18 on: 12 August, 2019, 12:03:35 pm »
Emma Pooley did some interesting stuff for GCN on bike fit for short riders. She raced TTs (won the World Champs, no less) with 650c wheels, so clearly they didn't hold her back!

Re: Frame size
« Reply #19 on: 12 August, 2019, 12:05:20 pm »
fwiw I found this link for 25-571 tyres at decathlon

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/resist-5-road-bike-tyre-650x25-id_8351382.html

but the size doesn't appear in their drop down menus and nor does this tyre even when you search for it directly.  I think they are dropping this size entirely.

cheers

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: Frame size
« Reply #20 on: 12 August, 2019, 12:30:42 pm »
Kona MTB frames from the 1990s were remarkable for their low standover and so the small frames make good utility bikes for short people. Ms Fruitcake is 5' 3" and she owns a (steel) Kona Cinder Cone. They can be roadified as necessary. Comfortable enough for all day riding, I reckon.

Re: Frame size
« Reply #21 on: 15 August, 2019, 10:18:17 am »
My wife wants to sell her Longstaff Audax / light tourer. She is 5’ exactly and a lightweight. Let me know if you want some proper details, but in summary it has 26” wheels, drop bars and Campag 9 speed triple via 160mm cranks. Weight including guards, rack, pedals, saddle etc is around 21lbs. I’ll advertise it soon, so here’s the chance to get in quick, but it’s going to cost someone around a grand!


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Re: Frame size
« Reply #22 on: 15 August, 2019, 12:14:16 pm »
Even before the great era of sloping top tubes sizes could be a funny thing. I have just put an old Raleigh frame on Le Bon Coin (rather than take it to the dump). It is 54cm tall (seat tube 52.5cm c-c). The top tube (horizontal frame design) is 58cm. I can only think it was made for flat bars (although dérailleurs) but even then the stem must have been very short. My daughter bought it from Oxford Cycle Workshop with drop bars and a stem of about 100mm (which would have been about right but she uses a 57cm c-c frame now).

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Frame size
« Reply #23 on: 20 August, 2019, 08:59:42 am »
Give Islabikes a call?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.