More 10-speed Campagnolo incompatibilty frustration...

[Oxford_Guy]

Ugh - getting more and more frustrated with trying to get a usable and compatible 10-speed Campagnolo setup for my incoming Mercian Strada Speciale frame.

I've discovered another problem I hadn't fully realised before, it seems that Ultrashift 10-speed levers (like the 2006-era Veloce Ergos I was hoping to be able to use) don't work properly with the the newer (2011-onwards) 10-speed Veloce rear derailleurs, which have a weaker return spring (see below for more details), designed to work with the newer Powershift 10-speed shifters - which probably rules out the possibility of using a "modern" 10-speed Veloce medium cage rear derailleur (and any possibility of using a 12-30 10-speed Centaur cassette). So I'd be stuck with just using older Chorus or Record 10-speed rear derailleurs, but can only find the former in short cage (which may not even work well with a 12-27). Record 10-speed rear derailleurs can still be found in short, medium and long cage length (at a price), but with their carbon cage, may not look that great with otherwise all-silver components, though I guess I could look for a 10-speed Campagnolo carbon crankset.

In theory I could get some 10-speed Veloce Powershift levers, but part of the reason for me wanting to stay with 10-speed was to avoid having to use Powershift (as found on 11-speed Athena, Potenza and now Centaur - the only 11-speed Campagnolo groupsets available in silver), as this limits to only one downshift for each lever movement (though you can still get up to 3 upshifts) and also, I think, less trim for the front derailleur.

Starting to wish I'd just gone for Athena or even Potenza 11-speed and be done with it. Guess I still could, at least, use the 10-speed Chorus hubs I have should still work work with 11-speed cassettes, but would need to eBay off some of the other components I've bought.

[Oxford_Guy]

This is what Graeme from Velotech Cycling Ltd. (the main UK Service centre for Campagnolo said on the matter):

"The higher return spring tensions used in Chorus and Record 10s of all generations help to drive part of the internal mechanism of the ErgoPower lever - lower return spring tensions as used in RDs for Escape or PowerShift don't do so reliably or, in some cases, at all.
There is a quantifiable test for this.

    Before assembling the chain to the RD but after all the cable routing (including taping the gear cables to the 'bars etc) is done, thread a new gear cable through the system and pinch it at the RD right at the end, so that a "tail" hangs out below the shifter.

    Fix a 1kg mass to the tail of the cable so that it hangs freely - we made up a fixture that uses the nipple as an anchorage - I suggest that you do the same so as not to kink the cable.

    Push the rear derailleur across as if testing the low gear limit screw setting - the 1 kg mass will drop, as you allow more cable back through the cable system.

    Gently release the RD - if there is sufficient spring tension in the RD to correctly operate the ErgoPower lever, it will be able to lift the 1kg mass up to it's starting position. If not, you will see some problems with indexing.

You need to do this with the cable system fully assembled as cable drag through the outers and around the various curves, through the ferrules and so on, all adds to the cable friction and so to losses of return spring tension.

"Full ErgoPower" and UltraShift need >1kg. Escape and PowerShift can work with as little as 0.85kg.
We term this the "1kg test"."

[Oxford_Guy]

A medium cage Chorus 10-speed rear derailleur would solve most of these problems, but seem to be as rare as hen's teeth...

[Ivo]

A medium cage Chorus 10-speed rear derailleur would solve most of these problems, but seem to be as rare as hen's teeth...

Any any serious classic bike jumble you can find them quite often. I've a few long cage rear mechs still kicking about, I try to keep my own stock for my use.

[Oxford_Guy]

A medium cage Chorus 10-speed rear derailleur would solve most of these problems, but seem to be as rare as hen's teeth...

Any any serious classic bike jumble you can find them quite often. I've a few long cage rear mechs still kicking about, I try to keep my own stock for my use.

I don't even need the whole derailleur, just the cage...

[Brucey]

surely it should be possible to use a more recent 11s US mech?

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

surely it should be possible to use a more recent 11s US mech?

Possibly, but the only 11 speed ultrashift ones are all carbon, no? Except maybe first generation 11-speed Chorus, think that may just have had a carbon front plate, like 10-spees Chorus, which would be fine (if can find one and if compatible...)

[Brucey]

surely it should be possible to use a more recent 11s US mech?

Possibly, but the only 11 speed ultrashift ones are all carbon, no?

yes, but beauty is as beauty does....?

cheers

[giropaul]

OK, Chorus seem rare ( probably many people at that price point went for Record) , but several Record, Centaur and Veloce on eBay and elsewhere in medium cage.

[giropaul]

Of course,you could always use my strategy, which is to use red levers ( red writing rather than white). Originally team issue only- now these really are as rare as hen’s teeth.
These have extra strong springs due to pro Team feedback.

[Brucey]

FWIW I'd personally go to some lengths to avoid using PS or ES shifters; they don't seem to be very well made.

Mad thought;  I wonder if you could install a 'helper spring' (eg over the cable between the barrel adjuster and the pinch bolt) such that it exerted about 0.25kgf? If so, you could use a cheaper 10s rd with a feeble spring.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

OK, Chorus seem rare ( probably many people at that price point went for Record) , but several Record, Centaur and Veloce on eBay and elsewhere in medium cage.

Pretty sure that the Centaur and Veloce Medium cage derailleurs you're seeing (certainly anything 2011 onwards) are not suitable for Ultrashift, which leaves just the earlier Record and (seemingly non-existent) Chorus ones.

EDIT: Actually, think this 2007-era Veloce Infinite medium cage 10-speed rear derailleur would perhaps have the correct spring tension for my 2006-era Veloce Ergos. Might be an option. Although wasn't that also when they started using the hated "Escape" mechanism in the Veloce and Centaur Ergos? Maybe that also had an effect on the lower end RDs...

Pity the centre plate is painted black, but suppose that could be polished. Or perhaps I could swap the cage with a short cage Chorus RD? Not sure how compatible they are, though

http://sprockets.uk.com/campagnolo-2007-veloce-infinite-10-speed-rear-derailleur-medium-cage/

[Brucey]

2007 'infinite' RD was new that year and is meant to be paired with an infinite QS Escape ergo.  I think  this means it ought to have the weaker spring in it.

BTW RDs that would work should include all 2000-2006 9s/10s compatible RDs from Mirage, Veloce and Xenon groups (edit; I should have said not Xenon groups; Xenon ergos have always been ES type); they have the same shift ratio as the 10s mechs from that period.  I don't know if you get any real benefit from using 10s pulleys in these mechs.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

2007 'infinite' RD was new that year and is meant to be paired with an infinite QS Escape ergo.  I think  this means it ought to have the weaker spring in it.

BTW RDs that would work should include all 2000-2006 9s compatible RDs from Mirage, Veloce and Xenon groups; they have the same shift ratio as the 10s mechs from that period.  I don't know if you get any real benefit from using 10s pulleys in these mechs.

Would they still be able to shift 10 sprockets, if paired with 10 speed levers?

[Brucey]

ISTR the answer is usually 'yes' but maybe others can chime in on this? 

There are also various RDs meant for campag triples (using US shifters) 2000-. These ought to work OK too.

cheers

[DuncanM]

2007 'infinite' RD was new that year and is meant to be paired with an infinite QS Escape ergo.  I think  this means it ought to have the weaker spring in it.

BTW RDs that would work should include all 2000-2006 9s compatible RDs from Mirage, Veloce and Xenon groups; they have the same shift ratio as the 10s mechs from that period.  I don't know if you get any real benefit from using 10s pulleys in these mechs.

Would they still be able to shift 10 sprockets, if paired with 10 speed levers?

They ought to be able to.  Be careful with picking a 9s rear mech though - early ones used the shift ratio of the 8s and won't work with 10s (I had such a mech on my 8s bike - I think it was badged Daytona).

[Ivo]

2007 'infinite' RD was new that year and is meant to be paired with an infinite QS Escape ergo.  I think  this means it ought to have the weaker spring in it.

BTW RDs that would work should include all 2000-2006 9s compatible RDs from Mirage, Veloce and Xenon groups; they have the same shift ratio as the 10s mechs from that period.  I don't know if you get any real benefit from using 10s pulleys in these mechs.

Would they still be able to shift 10 sprockets, if paired with 10 speed levers?

If you check the area around the limiter screws you'll see the difference (bulgy with new style, flat and recessed with old style mechs).
They ought to be able to.  Be careful with picking a 9s rear mech though - early ones used the shift ratio of the 8s and won't work with 10s (I had such a mech on my 8s bike - I think it was badged Daytona).

[velotech_cycles]

A medium cage Chorus 10-speed rear derailleur would solve most of these problems, but seem to be as rare as hen's teeth...

It doesn't really fix the maximum sprocket size problem.

Just adding a longer cage does not fix the difficulty that the H screw adjustment may and may not (depends on the hanger and some other elements of the frames geometry), allow correct setting of how close to the teeth of the biggest sprocket, the teeth of the upper jockey wheel are to each other. There needs to be enough space to allow a gate for the chain to pass through when shifting and to allow the jockey cage itself to clear the teeth of the sprockets.

I've corresponded at considerable length with the OP and explained that there are options but in many cases it's a case of "suck it and see" as the recommendations that Campagnolo make are based around what is tested (not just what is modelled) and what they are confident works reliably and without a need for repeated re-adjustments and "fettling" ...

9s RDs - the geometry is basically the same as the 10s mechs however, Xenon went to Escape in 2002 along with Mirage, Veloce in 2004, so not all 9s mechs, even after the 2000 / 2001 cable-pull ratio change are suitable to work well with traditional ErgoPower.

11s RDs - will shift 10s but those made for PowerShift have the same issue as 10s RDs made for Escape.

What the OP is looking for is to do an all-silver build and unfortunately, when Campagnolo were making double cranksets and silver alloy components, the gear ratio that the OP wants, was not a commonly-requested one. 12-29 with a Chorus medium cage will work well and reliably so long as the frame and hanger geometries are to specification. 12-30 2ill be more of a lottery, even though the bottom sprocket size is very close to being the same ...

[Brucey]

I just double-checked the 2006 parts catalogue and the veloce + mirage ergos appear to have 'standard' (i.e. non-escape) type internals, mostly identical pns to chorus etc internally.  I therefore suppose that all Veloce/Mirage rear mechs 2000-2006 (i.e. with the 'new' shift ratio) ought to work OK.

 Xenon appeared (in Escape form always) in 2002 and presumably Xenon mechs from this period use the weaker spring.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

What the OP is looking for is to do an all-silver build and unfortunately, when Campagnolo were making double cranksets and silver alloy components, the gear ratio that the OP wants, was not a commonly-requested one. 12-29 with a Chorus medium cage will work well and reliably so long as the frame and hanger geometries are to specification. 12-30 2ill be more of a lottery, even though the bottom sprocket size is very close to being the same ...

Velotech Cycles have been very helpful with educating me on will and won't work (and what might work).  Yesterday I managed to find a new medium cage Record 10-speed rear derailleur at a very good price, due to an easter promo - so I'm going to try to see what works with that. At the very least I should be able to reliably run a 12-27 for everyday riding, and a 13-29 for hilly rides and maybe 12-30 will work too, depending on my particular frame / gear hanger combination.

It's going to look slightly out of place on my otherwise all-silver build, but think may still have enough shiny bits to look okay (still looks better than the "silver" Potenza RD IMHO). Also, from what I've read, it does at least sound like it's a very good derailleur in operation.

[Brucey]

FWIW in addition to fitment-specific capacity variations (hence 'suck it and see') AFAICT both campagnolo and shimano have done exactly the same thing at times; they have decided that they won't make 'road bike cassettes' with sprockets larger than 'n' teeth, and have automatically written 'n' for the maximum sprocket size into the specification for the RD. 

Sometimes 'n' isn't far from the truth, but in many other cases 'n'  is a considerable underestimate.

If a RD comes with a spec that says 'n' max and hails from a time when they made 'matching cassettes' (eg road bike cassettes not MTB cassettes in the case of shimano) with more than 'n' teeth then I'd be more inclined to believe it might be a real limitation, and maybe n+2T is only possible in certain installations. In other cases I'd want to try it and see for myself; n+2T or n+4T is often possible if you are careful with setup.

Note also that the max sprocket size  can also be affected by the total capacity that is used. Thus a wide chainring range at the front may deprive you of the use of larger sprockets. However if you are prepared to tolerate slack running in the small-small combinations (which you shouldn't use anyway) you haven't 'used' all the total capacity after all and larger sprockets are more viable.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Note also that the max sprocket size  can also be affected by the total capacity that is used. Thus a wide chainring range at the front may deprive you of the use of larger sprockets. However if you are prepared to tolerate slack running in the small-small combinations (which you shouldn't use anyway) you haven't 'used' all the total capacity after all and larger sprockets are more viable.

Yes, I'm pretty sure now that I could run a 12-27 with a short cage early-2000s Campag RD and a 50/34 compact, but that it would likely run slack in probably two of the smaller sprockets, and would not be optimal, and potentially would run the risk of a dropped chain if I went into those sprockets by mistake. 13-29 or even 12-30 and a compact would be really pushing it, though.

[Oxford_Guy]

After discovering the possible compatibility issues of mixing different generations of Campagnolo 10-speed shifters and rear derailleurs, can anyone foresee any issues with me using a 10-speed Centaur FD9-CE2B  front derailleur, which am 99% sure is non-QS and compatible with both compact and standard double chainsets, with my 2006-era non-QS Veloce (Ultrashift-style) Ergo shifters? Think the literature included says it's meant for 10-speed Powershift Ergos, but think that's probably because that's all that were available when it was released!

EDIT: as far as I know this FD was first produced in 2009

Given that I've run a Shimano XT triple FD with the same model Ergos with no problems previously, I'm hoping there will be no issues here!

[Oxford_Guy]

12-29 with a Chorus medium cage will work well and reliably so long as the frame and hanger geometries are to specification. 12-30 2ill be more of a lottery, even though the bottom sprocket size is very close to being the same ...

Seeing as Campagnolo didn't make a 10-speed 12-29 cassette, was that a typo or are you suggested that combining sprockets from a 13-29 cassette and one beginning with a 12T might be a viable option, if clearance (or spring tension issues) to clear the 30T cog on a 12-30 is a problem?

e.g.

13-29 goes:
13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29

12-30 goes:
12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30

As only the last 3 sprockets are fixed on the 12-30 (and 12-27), I guess you could take the first 3 sprockets from one of those and combine with the rest of the 13-29 cassette to make:

12-13-14-16-17-19-21-23-26-29

I guess the 14T to 16T shift might not be that great, though, as the cogs are not ramped to be shifted between, but how bad would it be? In practice I'd probably us a 16T cog more than the 15T cog that would be lost.

or perhaps just use the last 3 sprockets from the 13-29:

12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-26-29

The 21T to 23T would be the "non-standard" shift.

Think the cog spacers are different sizes on different cassettes, but not sure if that would be an issue - looks like there's some useful information on Campagnolo cassette spacers here, but it doesn't seem to cover the spacers on the newer Centaur 12-27 and 12-30 cassettes: https://branfordbike.com/new-page-1

NB: Miche do make a 12-29 10-speed Campagnolo cassette, but I've not heard good reports about Miche (or IRD) cassettes. Interestingly, their one goes:
12-13-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29

Also IRD do a 12-28 that goes:
12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28t

But it's very expensive and for the sake of 1T, think might as well run a genuine Campagnolo 12-27 cassette or ones modded to 12-29

[giropaul]

Nothing wrong with Miche cassettes, they’re even shinier than Campag!
However, 13-29 should give you a good range. A good friend, an ex-Pro and big winner, once said “ only professionals need a 12.”
Anyway, who says that you can only have one cassette?  If you’re going to ride a flat route stick on a 12 up, or even an 11 up.