Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Oxford_Guy on 21 November, 2018, 01:55:53 pm
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Last Sunday I did my first long ride (about 64 miles) with some Campagnolo Pro-Fit clipless pedals, when I did the (quite hilly) Nailsworth Mini Sportive (http://www.veloevents.co.uk/minisportiveseriesl). After the first hour or so the ends of both my feet started to go a bit numb (though my feet didn't feel cold and I was wearing Pearl Izumi toe covers overs my shoes), then after the second major climb I started to feel some pain/discomfort, especially under the left foot - felt almost like there was a narrow bar perpendicular to my foot digging in, just behind the balls of my feet - though if anything on the left foot I think the cleat was mounted too far forward and the pedal spindle was perhaps slightly in front of the ball of my foot. The shoes have a rigid carbon sole, so I shouldn't have actually felt anything through them as such. The pain/discomfort subsided a little after most of the big climbs were out of the way, so I was able to finish, but it still wasn't great.
I guess it's possible some of the numbness was down to having the boas on the Specialized Torch 2.0 shoes too tight, though I didn't think to slacken them off at all at the time, as the shoes didn't feel that tight or otherwise feel uncomfortable. It's also quite possible (in fact quite likely) that I don't have the cleats in the right position, especially on the left, though I'm finding it quite difficult to figure out how to position them in the optimum way, despite initially having some help from the shop where I bought the shoes and subsequently reading some guides. Any tips? Could cleat position have a big impact on numbness/comfort on long rides?
I'm wondering if part of the discomfort may be down to the Campagnolo Pro-Fit pedals themselves, which have a platform quite a bit smaller than more "modern" clipless designs, though I would have thought with a rigid carbon sole, the platform size shouldn't matter so much? I'm a bit loathe to ditch the Campagnolo pedals, though, as otherwise I like them very much - unlike other 3-bolt cleat systems I've tried (Look, SPD-L), it's very easy to clip-out (whilst still providing good retention when riding), which I appreciate very much when riding in traffic, the bearings are wonderfully smooth (probably doesn't make much difference to performance, but feels nice when pedaling) and, well, they're shiny and look great...
I found them a little tricky to clip into at first, but the bearings have now freed up a bit, so they tend to hang back end down most of the time now and I'm also probably just getting the knack of clipping in.
When I checked out some (new) Look Keo pedals, as well as being harder to clip out of, the bearings felt much rougher in comparison and I didn't like the idea of the open spring design.
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I find that having my cleats too far forward makes me unconsciously 'claw' my toes, which leads to arch pain. How about you?
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I'm not aware of the campag pedals, but I wouldn't have thought that they can be much smaller than the SPD (MTB style) cleats. The Torch is a reasonably rigid shoe, so I would discount the cleats.
According to a bikefit video I was watching the other day, cleat position can cause numb toes if it's too far forwards causing you to claw your foot - I've no idea if this is science or bollocks though!
If you've not had a bikefit, then I'd suggest one - they should start with your feet and work upwards. There are a few recommended people in Oxfordshire, though I've only used one, so I can't speak about the others. It's not cheap, but it is cheaper than buying lots of different shoes/pedals.
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Some people (like me :-\) just seem to get numb feet with clipless. Doesn't matter if it's SPD or Look / Keo in my case, or relatively supple / full carbon soles, or Shimano/Sidi/Lake/Shimano etc shoes, I still sooner or later get numb toes, tho no pain as such. It's less of an issue if (like LWaB) I move the cleats backwards on the shoe.
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I had a bike fit when I was first measured up for my Hewitt Cheviot (which the pedals are currently attached to) 10 years ago and haven't changed the bars or saddle position since, but obviously haven't had a bike fit with these particular pedals attached.
It is possible the cleats may be too far forward and I could be clawing my feet - I'll first try moving them back a bit. Thanks.
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This may not help (diff factors at play?), but in my early days of SPD I used to get significant 'hot foot' (after 50-70km) particularly in my left foot, such that I sometimes had to stop and take my shoe off... This was with lidl spd shoes, and I tried moving the cleat, and adding alu plate under the insoles etc. It only really went away completely, when I changed to decent Shimano XC range SPD shoes. edit. These are very comfy, and I have a good amount of toe wriggle room.
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Another possibility is that the toe box is just slightly too narrow.
I have a narrow heel and thus buy shoes my heel does not lift out of but have a slightly wider forefoot. In almost all circumstances under about 300km I am fine but beyond that I get a numb forefoot unless I have a very specific insole (home made) supporting my transverse arch.
If your foot is comfortably enclosed it may be that after a few hills the foot is swollen and slightly squashed leading to the problem.
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The only time I've had a similar problem its been down to lacing my shoes too tight - bending over to lace rather than crouching with a bent knee.
ymmv, of course
Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
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The shoes are Specialized Torch 2.0, which actually have quite a roomy toe box and heel, they're definitely not "Italian fit", and my toes do not feel crushed in the slightest.
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BTW I think it was after only about the first 15 miles that I was getting discomfort / numbness :-(
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I recently traced my shoe problems on my right foot thanks to the size guide on the Lake website.
I wear size 42 trainers, hiknig boots and cycling shoes,
my left foot is the length and width for a lake 41
my right foot is the length of a lake 40 and the width for a lake 44
In cycling shoes this is presented as hot foot at the ball of the right foot.
In trainers it's presented as struggling to get the width of my foot through the opening (but plenty of toe box on trainers.
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as well as all the things mentioned above;
- if the cleat centre isn't under the middle of your foot (laterally speaking), this also tends to make you do something weird with some of the support muscles in your feet, and this can fairly quickly lead to discomfort and even cramp. A slight (camber) tilt of the sole to one side or the other can have a similar effect.
- some shoes with carbon soles (amazingly) don't have a flat sole on the inside of the shoe. It is always worth lifting the insole to see what lies beneath. On some shoes I have had to fill holes with something so that the insole has something flat to sit on.
If you can try the pedals with different shoes and the shoes with different pedals this may tell you where the problem is really coming from.
cheers
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I'm wondering if part of the discomfort may be down to the Campagnolo Pro-Fit pedals themselves, which have a platform quite a bit smaller than more "modern" clipless designs, though I would have thought with a rigid carbon sole, the platform size shouldn't matter so much?
Doesn't matter how stiff the sole is, you still need an adequate platform under the shoe.
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https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2014/07/04/happy-feet/
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https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2014/07/04/happy-feet/
Thanks, some useful tips there. I'll try to persevere, first thing I'll try is to check the alignment of the cleats again, think the left one, in particular, is quite out - with toe caps on they rub the cranks slightly, which the right one doesn't do and the cleat feels more forward than the right one, but I'll try moving both back a bit.
If that doesn't improve matters I may give some Shimano SPD-L pedals a proper go, These have a significantly larger platform and lower stack height than my Campagnolo pedals, and I've read that the bearings are pretty decent, at least on the higher end models, though sounds like they've replaced the central roller bearing with a bushing on the latest Dura Ace pedals, which sounds like a retrograde step. I would also probably try the yellow SPD-L cleats, which I think give 9 degrees of float (my Campagnolo ones have 6).
The main thing that has put me off a bit regarding Shimano SPD-L pedals previously (apart from not being shiny like the Campagnolo ones...) was that even on the lowest spring setting I found that they required quite some force to release the shoe from the pedal, which concerns me a little if I have to suddenly disengage quickly (as I did on my ride to work this morning, thankfully easy with the Campagnolo pedals).
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Why not try Looks?
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Why not try Looks?
I did (briefly - I didn't do any long rides with them) try some Look Keo 2 Max pedals, but the bearings felt rough and positively "agricultural" compared to the smooth bearings on the Campagnolo pedals - probably makes no difference to pedaling efficiency, but I don't like the feel of bearings that aren't very smooth when riding. Also I was not keen on the idea of the open spring design, can seen that corroding in British winters, and I found they required quite a lot of force to clip out of.
Of course Speedplay is the other option, though I understand that whilst you can get an adaptor interface to make them work with shoes with only 3-bolts (which is what I have), they're best used with 4-bolt shoes designed for them. I know many people swear by them, but they seem to have some issues to.
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A lot of force to clip out of? You were using the steel (not carbon) sprung ones, right? You know they have an adjustment screw?
Mine last several seasons at a time ...
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Why not try flat pedals?
People find the clicky feeling and sound pleasing, but, other than for sprinting where it does make a difference, no-one has ever come up with other genuine benefits from clipping in.
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I can spin faster (e.g. on fixed) using clipless pedals. I know BMXers can also pedal fast on flat pedals but I tend to ride further than they do.
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Why not try flat pedals?
People find the clicky feeling and sound pleasing, but, other than for sprinting where it does make a difference, no-one has ever come up with other genuine benefits from clipping in.
Off the top of my head:
Reducing shin-bashings due to muddy shoe:pedal interface when riding off-road.
Reducing shin-bashings due to poor pilot-stoker communication.
Not breaking your ankle/leg by running over your own foot with a tadpole trike when you hit a pothole.
Not having to work to support the weight of your legs in a recumbent position.
Keeping your foot in a specific known-good alignment to prevent recurrence of owmeknee.
(As with sprinting, none of these may apply to the OP, making flats a potential option. But that doesn't mean clipping in is otherwise pointless.)
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A lot of force to clip out of? You were using the steel (not carbon) sprung ones, right? You know they have an adjustment screw?
Mine last several seasons at a time ...
Yes, regular Keo 2 Max pedals (not the blade ones), adjustment screw was at minimum, seemed quite a bit harder to exit than the Campagnolo pedals
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Wax on the cleat/ pedal interface (or even a good clean) can reduce friction considerably.
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Why not try flat pedals?
Well I have when commuting and touring for most of the past 10 years, apart from sometimes using SPDs, but I'm getting more into fast road cycling.
People find the clicky feeling and sound pleasing, but, other than for sprinting where it does make a difference, no-one has ever come up with other genuine benefits from clipping in.
I'm definitely faster when using clipless pedals, whatever scientific tests may say, especially when accelerating, but not only that, even on the flat keeping a constant fast pace when pushing hard seems easier, maybe it's the more rigid soles or lighter shoes/pedals, but it definitely makes a difference for me. I don't think I get any extra power from upstrokes, though, like some claim, I don't pedal that way. I'm also more of a fast spinner than a masher, and it's reassuring to know my feet aren't going to slip off the pedals at high rpms.
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I can spin faster (e.g. on fixed) using clipless pedals. I know BMXers can also pedal fast on flat pedals but I tend to ride further than they do.
I managed 180 rpm on flat pedals last week. My feet did come off though!
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Why not try flat pedals?
People find the clicky feeling and sound pleasing, but, other than for sprinting where it does make a difference, no-one has ever come up with other genuine benefits from clipping in.
Off the top of my head:
Reducing shin-bashings due to muddy shoe:pedal interface when riding off-road.
Reducing shin-bashings due to poor pilot-stoker communication.
Not breaking your ankle/leg by running over your own foot with a tadpole trike when you hit a pothole.
Not having to work to support the weight of your legs in a recumbent position.
Keeping your foot in a specific known-good alignment to prevent recurrence of owmeknee.
(As with sprinting, none of these may apply to the OP, making flats a potential option. But that doesn't mean clipping in is otherwise pointless.)
I accept that there are different considerations for recumbents. However I've given myself far more painful shin bashes with clipless pedals than flats. If you fail to clip in properly, as happens now and again, clipless pedals are pretty slippery
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Why not try flat pedals?
Well I have when commuting and touring for most of the past 10 years, apart from sometimes using SPDs, but I'm getting more into fast road cycling.
People find the clicky feeling and sound pleasing, but, other than for sprinting where it does make a difference, no-one has ever come up with other genuine benefits from clipping in.
I'm definitely faster when using clipless pedals, whatever scientific tests may say, especially when accelerating, but not only that, even on the flat keeping a constant fast pace when pushing hard seems easier, maybe it's the more rigid soles or lighter shoes/pedals, but it definitely makes a difference for me. I don't think I get any extra power from upstrokes, though, like some claim, I don't pedal that way. I'm also more of a fast spinner than a masher, and it's reassuring to know my feet aren't going to slip off the pedals at high rpms.
It is a comforting feeling being clipped in but nobody has ever come up with tests to show it makes you any faster. This gets discussed on the time trialing forum every now and again.
Obviously is up to you, and I'm not trying to evangelise for flat pedals, just pointing out that there could be a very easy fix if the problem is impacting your riding enjoyment
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I accept that there are different considerations for recumbents. However I've given myself far more painful shin bashes with clipless pedals than flats. If you fail to clip in properly, as happens now and again, clipless pedals are pretty slippery
YMMV but I'm half expecting that to happen when I'm in the process of clipping in, rather than with flats where it can slip at any random moment as you're giving it full force.
And of course you don't get the classic 'clipless moment' with flats. (Though I do a good line in raising my foot to starting position and wondering where the pedal went.)
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I have used clips and straps or clipless pedals for most of my riding for decades. You definitely need them if you are going to go 'full gas'; however not everyone does that.
I had always supposed that in everyday riding I didn't really need to be clipped in but just preferred it; occasional forays on flat pedals I could cope with but then the bike would usually be a very different kettle of fish so it is easy enough to recalibrate the brain.
However at present I have flat/SPD pedals on my hack bike. To my surprise I really notice when I am not clipped in; when starting off from junctions or when requiring that I get a move on for some reason (eg in traffic) I clearly am pulling up, normally, more than I supposed I might. I am pretty sure I don't need to do this when pedalling 'steady state' (i.e. at all-day levels of effort) but the occasions when I do pull up are more frequent than I had supposed might be likely.
cheers
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What really throws me is the rare occasion I have a proper go on a recumbent that has flat pedals (usually a demonstrator, or something). While I get back into the swing of things reasonably quickly on uprights, I've basically never ridden a recumbent without foot retention, and my laid-back pedalling technique has a lot of neutral spots where I rely on the pedal to support my leg, if not actively pulling back to apply power. I have to really think about it.
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A lot of force to clip out of? You were using the steel (not carbon) sprung ones, right? You know they have an adjustment screw?
Mine last several seasons at a time ...
Yes, regular Keo 2 Max pedals (not the blade ones), adjustment screw was at minimum, seemed quite a bit harder to exit than the Campagnolo pedals
Interesting. Perhaps try what LWaB suggests? Time are another option - I've been trying some out and they're very easy to release on the low setting, but apparently they wear fast - I wouldn't know, I haven't used them enough yet.
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I have used clips and straps or clipless pedals for most of my riding for decades. You definitely need them if you are going to go 'full gas'; however not everyone does that.
Going "full gas" is definitely a requirement for me, have recently joined a local road cycling club, and they're no slouches... I also couldn't have imagined even doing the recent Sportive I did without clipless pedals, though I was cycling with a (much fitter) friend who just uses MTB-style flats with pins (on a full carbon road bike), though he rides with a much slower cadence (not speed!) than me.
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As you mention speed play are an option. I love mine and have used them for about 10 years now. Easy in and out with lots of float.
The three to 4 hole adapter is fine. Stack height is a little greater and may require lifting your saddle a few mm.
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As you mention speed play are an option. I love mine and have used them for about 10 years now. Easy in and out with lots of float.
The three to 4 hole adapter is fine. Stack height is a little greater and may require lifting your saddle a few mm.
Regarding the increased stack height, and the need to increase the seat height, that might be an issue at the moment, as on my current bike "someone" (ahem) forgot to grease the aluminium seatpost and it's stuck fast in the steel frame (I've tried various removal methods, though not the more drastic ones). A visit to The Seat Post Man (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiipcrctereAhUrDsAKHSpXBb8QFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheseatpostman.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw0HhWhrMWZ0r2kPX2Qa3YVt) is planned for next year, though...
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So, an update - I fiddled with the cleat positions on my Campagnolo Pro-Fit pedals again at the weekend, I moved them both back a little bit (though there would still be scope for moving them back further) and moved the left one in board slightly, so the crank no longer rubs on the toe covers.
I then did a quite relaxed 30 mile "social" ride with my local cycling club on Sunday, wearing quite thick woollen socks and tried not to over-tighten the boas. I also tried consciously to avoid clawing the soles with my feet and to try to keep them more relaxed.
Results were quite promising, no foot pain from the sole and the ends of my feet didn't go numb at all (bearing in mind it was quite chilly) though obviously this was quite a short ride, there were no serious hills nor was I ever really pushing that hard on the flat, so more testing will be required.
When I look at the cleat positions, it *looks* like I have them setup in exactly the same position on both shoes, though the position still doesn't *feel* quite right on the left - guess my feet must be different!
Also when I bring my ankles in as close to the cranks as the float will allow, the shoes are pointing dead forward, though my feet feel like they would like to be able to rotate slightly "duck-footed" I.e. a a bit more movement of the ankle towards the crank - I don't usually walk duck footed at all, as far as I'm aware, but it feels slightly odd to be constrained from moving at all in that direction off-centre. Should I rotate the cleats slightly to try to allow a little float inwards, or is that bad practice?
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Generally people set their cleats for equal float in and out from their normal/ neutral position.
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Generally people set their cleats for equal float in and out from their normal/ neutral position.
Ah - I only seem to have float outwards (I.e. able to move heel away from crank arm, not inwards from neutral), is my setup wrong then, or a limitation of the pedals/cleats I have?
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Reset your cleats so your feet are a bit further apart and the toes point out a little more. That should allow you to have float in both directions.
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A lot of force to clip out of? You were using the steel (not carbon) sprung ones, right? You know they have an adjustment screw?
Mine last several seasons at a time ...
Yes, regular Keo 2 Max pedals (not the blade ones), adjustment screw was at minimum, seemed quite a bit harder to exit than the Campagnolo pedals
Spring tension on new Keo's seems quite variable, $deity knows I've been through enough of them, my solution for an overly stiff release is old cleats mounted on an old pair of shoes with most of the rear cleat slot filled with car body filler, leave the old shoes clipped in while the bike isn't in use, seems to work.
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I've recently switched pedals from SPD to flats (big mtb-style ones I already had), because I was having some foot trouble from running and the bike seemed to be exacerbating it. Not a long-term decision. My experience definitely concurs with this:
However at present I have flat/SPD pedals on my hack bike. To my surprise I really notice when I am not clipped in; when starting off from junctions or when requiring that I get a move on for some reason (eg in traffic) I clearly am pulling up, normally, more than I supposed I might. I am pretty sure I don't need to do this when pedalling 'steady state' (i.e. at all-day levels of effort) but the occasions when I do pull up are more frequent than I had supposed might be likely.
I tend to enjoy just riding my bike rather than speeding about, so I've been surprised how often my feet have jumped off the pedals at first attempting to pull up. I'm not doing that any more after a few weeks, but still surprised how often I'm missing that extra torque for a few seconds around junctions and hills.
I'm hoping to fit in a decent length ride this weekend on the flats - curious to see how it goes.
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I had "hot foot" pain from a shoe/pedal set-up that had been comfortable for over 8 years. Solved with a pair of new (2nd hand) shoes. Maybe my feet had changed. I bought about a dozen pairs of cheap 2nd hand shoes on eBay - Shimano S-Phyre, Sidi Ergo 2, Specialized S Works, Louis Garneau, Gaerne. There was a surprising difference in their internal shape. The cheaper ones generally had more padding, the expensive ones were less padded and either fitted really well or really badly, often because they were too narrow for me. I thought my old shoes were a good fit bit I know now that there was much better to be found.
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I've recently switched pedals from SPD to flats (big mtb-style ones I already had), because I was having some foot trouble from running and the bike seemed to be exacerbating it. Not a long-term decision. My experience definitely concurs with this:
I tend to enjoy just riding my bike rather than speeding about, so I've been surprised how often my feet have jumped off the pedals at first attempting to pull up. I'm not doing that any more after a few weeks, but still surprised how often I'm missing that extra torque for a few seconds around junctions and hills.
I'm hoping to fit in a decent length ride this weekend on the flats - curious to see how it goes.
You'll get used to riding flat pedals, the same way as you did with clipless, but it does take a while. I've used only flat pedals since June and still occasionally forget and lift my foot off. It's a bit like riding fixed in that you occasionally forget and try to freewheel, then immediately realise you can't
The idea of getting any significant extra power from pulling up has been pretty much debunked. If you are really bored one day, you can try it (I did once out of curiosity). Put your saddle down by a few inches and hook your feet underneath the pedals, and see how fast you can go pedalling that way. For anyone who has ever tried it, the answer is they can only just get the bike moving on a flat road.
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The idea of getting any significant extra power from pulling up has been pretty much debunked. If you are really bored one day, you can try it (I did once out of curiosity). Put your saddle down by a few inches and hook your feet underneath the pedals, and see how fast you can go pedalling that way. For anyone who has ever tried it, the answer is they can only just get the bike moving on a flat road.
As I said previously in this thread, I don't think I get any extra power from upstrokes, like some claim, but I am somehow definitely faster when using clipless pedals "especially when accelerating, but not only that, even on the flat keeping a constant fast pace when pushing hard seems easier, maybe it's the more rigid soles or lighter shoes/pedals, but it definitely makes a difference for me"
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....The idea of getting any significant extra power from pulling up has been pretty much debunked. If you are really bored one day, you can try it (I did once out of curiosity). Put your saddle down by a few inches and hook your feet underneath the pedals, and see how fast you can go pedalling that way. For anyone who has ever tried it, the answer is they can only just get the bike moving on a flat road.
I don't think that anyone has said that you can't tap along all day without clips and straps, if you want to. However examples of folk putting in fantastic examples of athleticism without clips and straps are few and far between, and some types of riding are not sensibly possible without some form of foot retention, which for most folk has practically non-existent consequences. This much was amply demonstrated well over a hundred years ago. Maybe you should find some Victorian cyclists to have an argument with.
The 'pulling up only' experiment is daft; it is a bit like saying "icing on cakes can't possibly be any good because it doesn't by itself make for a good cake".
cheers
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....The idea of getting any significant extra power from pulling up has been pretty much debunked. If you are really bored one day, you can try it (I did once out of curiosity). Put your saddle down by a few inches and hook your feet underneath the pedals, and see how fast you can go pedalling that way. For anyone who has ever tried it, the answer is they can only just get the bike moving on a flat road.
I don't think that anyone has said that you can't tap along all day without clips and straps, if you want to. However examples of folk putting in fantastic examples of athleticism without clips and straps are few and far between, and some types of riding are not sensibly possible without some form of foot retention, which for most folk has practically non-existent consequences. This much was amply demonstrated well over a hundred years ago. Maybe you should find some Victorian cyclists to have an argument with.
The 'pulling up only' experiment is daft; it is a bit like saying "icing on cakes can't possibly be any good because it doesn't by itself make for a good cake".
cheers
Not quite sure where you are coming from with this, and fear that it is going off topic, but I've always acknowledged that foot retention was important for certain types of riding - ie sprinting.
There are plenty of 'examples of folk putting in fantastic examples of athleticism without clips and straps'. Lots of people have got round PBP or LEL on flats (see upthread) and in the mountain biking world, many top riders, such as Sam Hill, use flat pedals for racing at the highest levels. And Andrew Coggan, the guru of training with power, has stated he has no evidence that flat pedals are less efficient than other systems at transmitting power.
Finally, I fear the cakeist analogy doesn't work, but please do suggest a better simple experiment to test the hypothesis that it is possible to generate a significant level of power by pulling on the upstroke.
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Have you heard of Powercranks? Each crankarm has a freewheel, so riders have to pedal the full circle with both legs. Proponents claim all sorts of benefits, after training to do so. Regardless of the claimed benefits of pulling up, I doubt that a one-off trial lasting a few minutes is going to correlate particularly well with the performance of a trained individual for something like cycling, given that the pulling up action is hardly replicated in normal life (unless you habitually walk in heavy boots or deep mud).
http://powercranks.com/cycling1.html
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There are plenty of 'examples of folk putting in fantastic examples of athleticism without clips and straps'. Lots of people have got round PBP or LEL on flats (see upthread) and in the mountain biking world, many top riders, such as Sam Hill, use flat pedals for racing at the highest levels.
I think Brucey would characterise PBP as "tapping along all day" (and night), and downhill MTB racing hardly needs pedalling (riders have podiumed having lost their chain near the too of the run).
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The idea of getting any significant extra power from pulling up has been pretty much debunked. If you are really bored one day, you can try it (I did once out of curiosity). Put your saddle down by a few inches and hook your feet underneath the pedals, and see how fast you can go pedalling that way. For anyone who has ever tried it, the answer is they can only just get the bike moving on a flat road.
Just out of interest, I had a go at this. Before I tried it I thought it was unrealistic because you're having to carry the entire weight of your legs as well as missing 100% of the downpush. So I was expecting to be able to get along fairly feebly, but maybe just so.
Now I've tried it. I struggle to believe that you have both actually tried it and are suggesting it is relevant.
Completely different motion to learn. I couldn't even turn the pedals like this, because my feet were losing contact all the time as they were required to keep a small upforce throughout the cycle. The icing vs icing on a cake analogy is too generous - this is more like trying to drive a car with my feet on the steering wheel and hands on the pedals.
Sorry to be disagreeable. I actually agree with your main thrust - there isn't a large benefit to be had from pulling up on the pedals and over the course of a long ride it's not really going to add much.
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Fascinating - I don't remember it being that hard, but it's many years since I did it!
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There are plenty of 'examples of folk putting in fantastic examples of athleticism without clips and straps'. Lots of people have got round PBP or LEL on flats (see upthread) and in the mountain biking world, many top riders, such as Sam Hill, use flat pedals for racing at the highest levels.
I think Brucey would characterise PBP as "tapping along all day" (and night), and downhill MTB racing hardly needs pedalling (riders have podiumed having lost their chain near the too of the run).
I didn't mean downhill, but Enduro or XC racing, where there is plenty of uphill as well as down
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Sorry to be disagreeable. I actually agree with your main thrust - there isn't a large benefit to be had from pulling up on the pedals and over the course of a long ride it's not really going to add much.
But pulling-up on the pedals aside, there do seem to be other tangible benefits (apart from not slipping off the pedals etc.) to being clipped in When clipped in, I definitely seem to be able to accelerate a lot more quickly and sustain a faster pace without additional effort, so there is something going on there, whether it be more efficient power transfer through the stiff sole->cleat>pedal interface and/or lighter pedals/shoes (though in the latter's case, I imagine the impact to be very small).
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I don't disagree. Like I said, I've switched in the short term right now for a foot issue probably related to running. Not a long term decision.
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But pulling-up on the pedals aside, there do seem to be other tangible benefits (apart from not slipping off the pedals etc.) to being clipped in When clipped in, I definitely seem to be able to accelerate a lot more quickly and sustain a faster pace without additional effort, so there is something going on there, whether it be more efficient power transfer through the stiff sole->cleat>pedal interface and/or lighter pedals/shoes (though in the latter's case, I imagine the impact to be very small).
There's benefit in whatever works best for you: not slipping off, and not backing off slightly for fear off slipping off, sounds plausible. Coggan, however, couldn't find any difference in power transfer / pedalling efficiency. I agree weight is not likely to be a factor. Aerodynamics could go either way - lower stack height on flat pedals vs smaller pedals and smoother shoes - but really only an issue in fine-tuning a TT setup.
I'd expect that feeling confident that you won't slip off is likely to be most significant for most people.
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I find being able to pedal with one foot is a tangible benefit, when things get a bit iffy and I need to keep the landing gear down. That's mostly a recumbent thing (because it takes longer to get your foot up and pedalling), but has occasionally come in handy off-road.
Confidence that I can spin at high cadence without bashing myself in the shin is certainly significant.
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in. I was surprised how easy it was to ride in trainers until the soles got wet. But the thing I don't understand - I do a bit of Audaxing - is why almost everyone I see uses MTB shoes with SPDs.
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But the thing I don't understand - I do a bit of Audaxing - is why almost everyone I see uses MTB shoes with SPDs.
2-bolt cleats gives you more choice of practical shoes. Both in terms of options for dealing with extremes of weather (eg. sandals, winter boots) and shoes that you can walk in easily without damaging floors (which means you don't have to take them off and risk getting your socks dirty at controls).
SPDs are cheap.
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in.
What are "rollers"?
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in.
What are "rollers"?
A way of falling off your bike indoors where nobody will see it.
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in.
What are "rollers"?
A way of falling off your bike indoors where nobody will see it.
Oh, of course, I was thinking he was talking about some sort of strange pedal cleat system, LOL!
Rollers have been round for a while, haven't they...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Antique_bicycle_on_antique_rollers_in_US_Bicycling_Hall_of_Fame.jpg)
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in.
What are "rollers"?
A way of falling off your bike indoors where nobody will see it.
Oh, of course, I was thinking he was talking about some sort of strange pedal cleat system, LOL!
I had something like this in mind:
https://www.tririg.com/store.php?c=mercury&page=features
(https://www.tririg.com/images/store/960/000_Store_212.jpg) (https://www.tririg.com/images/store/960/000_Store_212.jpg)
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They look a lot like Aerolite pedals, the lightest pedals I ever saw.
https://fairwheelbikes.com/aerolite-titanium-pedals/
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more wacky clipless pedals here;
http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pedalmuseum.clipless (http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pedalmuseum.clipless)
cheers
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I've bought some rollers and don't yet dare use them clipped-in.
What are "rollers"?
A way of falling off your bike indoors where nobody will see it.
You're not wrong there.
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Lots of familiar stuff on that Speedplay page.
My framebuilder (Frezoni) has a set of the Cinelli clipless pedals, one of the later versions from memory.
I raced on an early set of Keywin clipless pedals and was happy to swap to a later version that were easier to clip into.
I think Berto was a big fan of the CycleBinding clipless pedals but I never saw them in the flesh.
Lots of those Look 'racing' black pedals broke, we warranteed quite a few of them.
A mate had a set of the MKS clipless pedals and only retired them when he ran out of cleats.
The Campag SGR pedals were beautiful and about the most adjustable pedal ever but no racer used them. The set we had at the shop ended up on a steel Colnago, of course.
The Adidas clipless pedals were popular with trackies (couldn't pull a foot) but roadies stayed away.
The Foster aluminium Look cleats wore the pedals into dust instead.
The SR pedals worked ok but the cleats were so tall that they were impossible to walk in, even into a cafe.
I remember seeing the Time TBT pedals on the French team bikes at the prologue of the 1987 Tour Feminine and not knowing what they were.
Our shop had a set of Mavic Look pedals for years as the plastic appearance put off the punters.
I think we had a pair of Primax pedals that didn't shift too, despite deep discounting. Replacement cleats for orphans was always a problem.
A friend mourned his Time TWT pedals when there were no more cleats to be found.
The set of Diadora pedals ended up being used by the shop owner as the market were locked onto Look or Time only.
The Performance pedals were made by Wellgo and also sold under their own name. They were remarkably cheap, worked pretty well and were popular enough until the cleat supply dried up and Look pedals dropped in price.
Mag Flux pedals always collected magnetic dirt particles which wore the body and cleat interface away. Who could have guessed that would happen?
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it occurs to me that some of these pedals could be brought back into use now, with an 'endless supply' of 3D printed cleats.
cheers
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it occurs to me that some of these pedals could be brought back into use now, with an 'endless supply' of 3D printed cleats.
Perhaps, but you'd have to ensure the material used for the "printing" was robust enough and not going to crack easily
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I've recently switched pedals from SPD to flats (big mtb-style ones I already had), because I was having some foot trouble from running and the bike seemed to be exacerbating it. Not a long-term decision.
...
I'm hoping to fit in a decent length ride this weekend on the flats - curious to see how it goes.
Thought I ought to report back on that. Pleasant ride on Sunday, SS, but not hilly (1440m / 175km). No real issue with the flat pedals. There were a couple of times when the lack of One True Position on the pedals was mildly irritating, as my feet wriggled about trying to decide where to sit. Only a couple of short steep bits in the whole ride where it'd have been nice to be able to push and pull, but I survived.
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I've also got this problem - numb feet on a long ride.
I've also had chilblains on and off all year and I've tried five different pairs of shoes with bad to middling success.
I've used MTB SPDs, speedplay and now road SPDs. I've got some seconds hand winter boots with road pedals which I hoped would solve the problem but no. My feet go numb after an hour. I'm going to try fiddling with the cleat position but I think that the boots are just too narrow even though they are a size up. I'm feeling pretty down about this as I can't afford to keep buying and trying shoes which feel fine when I'm not cycling but then cause my feet to go numb after an hour.
I don't want to go back to flats but this needs sorting out for longer rides as it's too painful to live with.
Any magic bullet suggestions?
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SPD sandals?
I'd be inclined to guess that your shoes are too tight.
Sandal straps can generally be set fairly loosely, and there's not the same shoe structure to squeeze the foot into. I find they allow windproof/waterproof socks such as sealskins, or goretex + regular socks, and aren't any colder than normal shoes in winter.
Numb feet even in warmer weather must be either a nerve being squeezed somewhere, or restricted blood supply.
Too tight shoes would affect the blood supply to the whole foot, but I'd expect squeezed nerves to only affect part of the foot (and numbness being preceded by tingling), in the same way as you get either numb/tingling ring/little fingers or middle/index/thumb from handlebar/riding position problems
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SPD sandals?
This is actually a good idea. I saw someone on Fenland Friends in sandals and I couldn't believe it. He had bare feet. Must be on here.
Wide fit shoes are my next port of call before the weather gets warmer. I'll be scouring ebay before spending another £££.
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I agree with Andrew's comments.
However I would also note that it just might be what some folk call 'a referred pain' i.e. there may be poor circulation or a trapped nerve, but it might be far away from where you feel it. For example there might be a problem in the base of the spine or in the pelvis and your feet might go numb as a result of it. I find that if I am forced to spend an hour in one position only (i.e. without even raising my bum out of the saddle) I can go numb in all kinds of weird places, even on a saddle that I am normally comfy on. This has only ever happened to me under weird circumstances though, eg riding a tandem time-trial.
cheers
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Wide fit shoes are my next port of call before the weather gets warmer. I'll be scouring ebay before spending another £££.
Just beware that manufacturers definition of wide can vary considerably. Wide fit Lake's have worked for me whereas Sidi's and Shimano's did not. There a few guides around on the net including this, https://road.cc/content/feature/223770-where-can-i-find-wide-cycling-shoes
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I saw someone on Fenland Friends in sandals and I couldn't believe it. He had bare feet. Must be on here.
I misjudged things during the cold snap at the end of October, and came out the pub, with 8 miles to do back home, wearing shorts, sandals with no socks, and no gloves, to find that the Garmin was reading -2° when I turned it on (Tempe ANT sensor under saddle).
I can't say it was comfortable on the toes, but the fingers were the main problem.
I have been out voluntarily barefooted when it's been 5°, expected to drop to 3° or so, and once it's above 7° or so, bare toes are no problem.
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Unfortunately, I've got Raynaud's disease - poor circulation as well.
"Hot Hands" were a blessing on the Nov RRtY but only for the hands, the feet ones didn't work. I've just got to sort my bloody feet out in the colder months. They don't suffer quite as much in the summer shoes. The combo of cold and poor circulation is not good. It has taken weeks for the feeling to come back into my fingers and toes after some long cold rides and I've had to take medication to widen the little capillaries in my fingers and toes on two occasions.
I'll sort myself out some wider shoes and try again.
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I've also got Reynauds. Is what you describe anything other than what happens with Reynauds when you get cold? Ie is it connected with the boots at all? Obviously you need shoes that fit but I would expect to get those symptoms with perfect shoes if I got cold on a ride
Based on what you've written I'd say the most likely magic bullet would be an extra merino base layer.
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Is what you describe anything other than what happens with Reynauds when you get cold? Ie is it connected with the boots at all? Obviously you need shoes that fit but I would expect to get those symptoms with perfect shoes if I got cold on a ride
Based on what you've written I'd say the most likely magic bullet would be an extra merino base layer.
Good point.
I feel like I've been on a circular journey. My Reynauds and poor circulation are definitely causing the problems with my feet. I probably should have started with that!
When I commute 20 mins on my bike in normal shoes and wrapped up in a normal coat my chilblains flare up.
I tried to get warmer boots to prevent or limit the problems on longer rides so I can do proper rides in the winter but they haven't helped at all. Perhaps upping my core temperature is the way to go (and wider winter shoes).
I've started running and gyming again to try to maintain fitness while it's still cold (or I find a solution).
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Yes, it's definitely core temperature you need to focus on with Reynauds. Warmer shoes on their own won't help.
This was my experience today.
I set off at 7:30 and rode until 8:45, wearing lots of layers. Feet were warm. I was meeting others at 9, and one was late, so didn't get going until 9:15. I cooled down in this time and my feet went numb. They stayed numb even though the temperature increased. Around 1pm, when it had warmed up quite a lot, and I was on a long climb, my core had warmed so that I had to stop to take a layer off. At that point, my feet stopped being numb.
My experience in winter is that if, for even a few minutes, my core temp falls, I will generally have numb feet all day unless, like today, it got pretty mild.
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Okay, latest update on my experience with my Campagnolo Pro-Fit pedals on another long ride (65 miles over about 4 hours, no breaks longer than a minute or so). This was after moving the cleats back a little, after my previous experience. This sportive was much less hilly, though the strong headwind for a lot of the ride was really energy-sapping.
Anyone, as far as the pedals felt, this time they were fine up to about 20 minutes miles, when the first tingles started, then the ends of my feet started to progressively a bit numb (don't think due to cold, had toe covers and (thin) thermal socks on and it wasn't that cold). The numbness actually didn't get that bad and was bearable, BUT after around the 45 mile mark I had a similar experience to last time, started to feel like there was a solid bar perpendicular to the sole pressing into my feet, just behind the ball of foot. This really wasn't nice to ride with, had to point the pedals downwards on the down stroke to try to minimize the pain.
I was wearing Specialized Torch 2.0 shoes with carbon soles.
I'm sure alot of it is probably down to cleat position, but I'm finding it hard to get this right, if this is what it is. Think I may try some (new) Shimamo 5800 SPD-L pedals I picked up cheap recently, to see if they're any more comfortable. I can already tell that the bearings are not as nice, though and am concerned the release tension may be too high for my liking/safety, especially when tired near the end of a long ride.
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Have you excluded the possibility that it is the shoes, not whatever they are fitted to? With a carbon sole the type of cleat/pedal shouldn’t make much, if any, difference.
Additionally, have you tried different, maybe even custom, foot beds.
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Have you excluded the possibility that it is the shoes, not whatever they are fitted to? With a carbon sole the type of cleat/pedal shouldn’t make much, if any, difference.
Additionally, have you tried different, maybe even custom, foot beds.
No to both, but it's not so easy to try out different shoes (in my size), attach cleats to them, then go out for a 4 hour ride... Also you usually can't return shoes after wearing them out, so that would get expensive.
The shoes themselves seem to be comfortable, other than the issues mentioned, and fit well without being overly tight anywhere. It's possible a custom foot bed might help. Where would I go to find out about these?
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Have you excluded the possibility that it is the shoes, not whatever they are fitted to? With a carbon sole the type of cleat/pedal shouldn’t make much, if any, difference.
Additionally, have you tried different, maybe even custom, foot beds.
No to both, but it's not so easy to try out different shoes (in my size), attach cleats to them, then go out for a 4 hour ride... Also you usually can't return shoes after wearing them out, so that would get expensive.
What about functionally different shoes that you'd buy anyway? No winter boots, or touring sandals (okay, probably not with road cleats)...
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I strongly suspect that it is your shoes.
What is a comfortable (not tight, but close) fit when you set off will be too tight after a while. Your feet swell as you ride. It doesn't take much to go from 'fitting closely' to 'starting to restrict circulation'. This is one of the reasons why the SPD sandals have been so popular with mile-munchers and tourers; you can adjust the tightness as you ride.
Unless you are racing, I see no reason to not have pretty loosely-fitting shoes. The strapping mechanisms on modern shoes mean there is no reason to have them done up firmly at all. Give your feet space to move around in the shoe, let the blood circulate.
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I strongly suspect that it is your shoes.
What is a comfortable (not tight, but close) fit when you set off will be too tight after a while. Your feet swell as you ride. It doesn't take much to go from 'fitting closely' to 'starting to restrict circulation'. This is one of the reasons why the SPD sandals have been so popular with mile-munchers and tourers; you can adjust the tightness as you ride.
Unless you are racing, I see no reason to not have pretty loosely-fitting shoes. The strapping mechanisms on modern shoes mean there is no reason to have them done up firmly at all. Give your feet space to move around in the shoe, let the blood circulate.
I deliberately had the boa on each shoe set pretty light on this ride, though, and the shoes seemed fairly loose. It's possible the strap nearer the toe end could have been a bit looser, but couldn't adjust that on the ride so easily (especially with toe covers).
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I get numb feet if my shoes are done up too tight - one of the problems of mega-wide feet. I now use a Specialized footbed in my shoes (also Specialized, but they should fit any shoe). This is supposed to spread your toes slightly by being raised in the centre of the insole. This as well as keeping the shoes loose has helped a lot. I am pretty sure that the numbness is due to the fit of the shoe as when I wear my winter boots (also Specialized but MUCH wider in fit) I never get the problem.
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What winter boots do you use?
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My experience in winter is that if, for even a few minutes, my core temp falls, I will generally have numb feet all day unless, like today, it got pretty mild.
Do you ever have trouble getting the feeling back in your toes? I did a couple of very long, cold rides last year and the numbness lasted for weeks and I had to take medication to get the feeling back properly.
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If the issue was blood supply then the discomfort kicks in straight away due to the squeezing being there straight away.
I’d be looking at insoles to alleviate nerve issues.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If the issue was blood supply then the discomfort kicks in straight away due to the squeezing being there straight away.
I’d be looking at insoles to alleviate nerve issues.
The discomfort didn't start until about 20 miles into the recent sportive ride, which was also the case on a recent club ride, though there was a rest stop shortly after the later, so I had forgotten about it, as the numbness went away during the rest. I also get no numbness/pain ever on my 4 mile commute.
Insoles might indeed help, especially if they also prevent me from "clawing" my feet, which I've been trying not to do, as think this contributes to the problem, but it inevitably still happens.
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What winter boots do you use?
I don't have any, I've just been wearing toe covers and slightly warmer socks and don't do long rides when it's dark (and colder) in winter. My feet haven't felt especially cold, and certainly weren't last weekend.
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I am pretty sure that the numbness is due to the fit of the shoe as when I wear my winter boots (also Specialized but MUCH wider in fit) I never get the problem.
Are your Specialized boots the same shoe size as your Specialized shoes, but come up wider?
BTW my Specialized Torch 2.0 shoes don't feel *tight* unless I crank up to boas/tighten the front strap, though are fairly snug, they're certainly not loose. I suspect even a half size up would too big for me (though not as much as a half size down would be too small).
I'd actually understood that Specialized cycling shoes were on the wider side compared to some (e.g. Fizik)? My ones are the same size (43) as most of my regular shoes.
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Okay, regarding Specialized's own footbeds, this is what I found from the product blurb:
"Redesigned for lighter weight and more efficient power transfer. Ergonomically designed & scientifically tested BodyGeometry footbeds were co-developed with Andy Pruitt, Director of the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, to customize fit and measurably improve performance.
Body Geometry footbeds provide longitudinal arch and metatarsal support for a custom fit.
By standing on the Specialized Arch-O-Meter, a rider can determine the optimum level of foot contour:
+ Red = minimal contours for riders that prefer minimal support
++ Blue = moderate (slightly higher longitudinal arch & metatarsal button) = for people with flat to standard arch
+++ Green = significant support = for people with standard or high arches
Body Geometry shim and wedges sold separately"
I don't know what my arches are like, so guess I need to find somewhere I can get to (I don't have a car) that has this "Arch-o-meter"
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My experience in winter is that if, for even a few minutes, my core temp falls, I will generally have numb feet all day unless, like today, it got pretty mild.
Do you ever have trouble getting the feeling back in your toes? I did a couple of very long, cold rides last year and the numbness lasted for weeks and I had to take medication to get the feeling back properly.
No, my feet warm up when my core temperature warms, usually when I get inside. No lasting numbness.
What medication?
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Re insoles - if you have a Specialized shop locally they may well be able to help. I use Superfeet yellow, that are specific to cycling/ speed skating ( easily available Wiggle, web shops etc).
You can get a rough idea about your instep by wetting your foot and standing on a sheet of paper.
I’d also suggest using the fact that you are in a club. Ask if you can try on a few makes around your size, particularly trying their insole in your shoe. Some will be worried about hygiene etc, but I’ve let quite a few try my insoles.
Some years ago I used some very nice top of the range Carnacs-fitted beautifully in the lounge before making any effort. Into longer rides I got increasing pain. I gave up on them and found that my foot size had increased over time ( quite common I found out). I’ve gone from a 42 Carnac to 43Wide Shimano -and 44 in models where wide isn’t available. No foot issues at all since.
It can take a few goes before you find the right shoe fit, but it’s better than painful cycling. I regularlyly buy Shimano shoes in my size on eBay. Many are almost new “ tried them and didn’t like them” so many people are experimenting before finding their own holy grail.
Once you have found the ideal shoe, buy more! It’s always advisable to have at least two pairs in case e.g. a boa wire snaps. Also, once your best pairs wear out there’s nothing worse than not being able to get any more because the model is out of production.
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My experience in winter is that if, for even a few minutes, my core temp falls, I will generally have numb feet all day unless, like today, it got pretty mild.
Do you ever have trouble getting the feeling back in your toes? I did a couple of very long, cold rides last year and the numbness lasted for weeks and I had to take medication to get the feeling back properly.
No, my feet warm up when my core temperature warms, usually when I get inside. No lasting numbness.
What medication?
Nifedipine. It relaxes and expands the blood vessels in the fingers and toes. It is also used for high blood pressure and angina. It definitely works, thankfully.
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I am pretty sure that the numbness is due to the fit of the shoe as when I wear my winter boots (also Specialized but MUCH wider in fit) I never get the problem.
Are your Specialized boots the same shoe size as your Specialized shoes, but come up wider?
The shoes and boots are the same size - whatever the equivalent of a 9 is. The shoes are wider than most others that I have tried, but the boots are even wider - they are the Defroster boots, although I don't think they are made anymore. They were sold as being a wide fit and they certainly are. I can wear two pairs of socks with them on and they don't feel tight. My shoes (can't remember the model, but mid-range and have a Boa dial) are narrower. I always try and wear thin socks which does help a lot with the fit and keep them fairly loose which does make them a lot more comfortable and largely stops the numbness unless I do a really long ride.
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Okay, regarding Specialized's own footbeds, this is what I found from the product blurb:
"Redesigned for lighter weight and more efficient power transfer. Ergonomically designed & scientifically tested BodyGeometry footbeds were co-developed with Andy Pruitt, Director of the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, to customize fit and measurably improve performance.
Body Geometry footbeds provide longitudinal arch and metatarsal support for a custom fit.
By standing on the Specialized Arch-O-Meter, a rider can determine the optimum level of foot contour:
+ Red = minimal contours for riders that prefer minimal support
++ Blue = moderate (slightly higher longitudinal arch & metatarsal button) = for people with flat to standard arch
+++ Green = significant support = for people with standard or high arches
Body Geometry shim and wedges sold separately"
BTW as far as I've been able to find out (from reading elsewhere (https://forums.roadbikereview.com/beginners-corner/got-some-new-specialized-bg-blue-footbeds-242157.html#post3238305)), Specialized shoes as standard come with the equivalent of the "Red" footbeds from the factory, though the ones in mt Torch 2.0 shoes are black, so I can't confirm.
Specialized now seem to sell their footbeds separately from the adjustment shims:
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/shop/search/?s=footbeds
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I think that you are correct. My replacement footbeds were the blue ones, and they have made a difference.
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I think that you are correct. My replacement footbeds were the blue ones, and they have made a difference.
Did you use any of the shims too, or just the replacement footbeds?
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/1859/2009-bg-shim-kit/
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Just the footbeds. I got them after doing a bike fit and complaining to the fitter about the foot pain, and so he recommended starting with the footbeds and then possibly using the shims as well if the footbeds did not solve the problem completely.
As I said I do still get the pain if I do a long ride but the footbeds have massively improved things along with really thin socks; not doing my shoes too tight (let's face it I'm never going to be able to sprint as fast as Cav anyway) and taking my shoes off when I stop to let my feet cool down. I do still get it sometimes but it is not so bad that I feel the need to buy the shims.
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Okay, latest update on this - I found a local bike shop that had the Specialized "Arch-O-Meter" that is meant to indicate how much arch support your feet need - for my feet it definitely showed I had fairly high arches and that the blue or even higher green footbeds would be more suitable for my feet than the flatter stock ones (which are the same as the red footbeds). So (after a quick try out) I purchased and fitted a pair of the mid-level blue footbeds for my Specialized Torch 2.0 shoes.
I've not had a chance to try them out on a proper long ride yet, though did a fast and quite hilly 10 miles wearing them at the weekend. No numbess at that distance, but then I wasn't getting that with the red ones either until further on. Overall sole comfort seems a little better, and I can imagine how better arch support may help prevent that solid bar underfoot feeling I was reporting, but too early to tell yet.
On the downside, the blue footbeds take up a little more space inside the shoes, and now the shoes are definitely feeling borderline too tight in the toe box area, both from the sides of the balls of my feet and a little from the top (e.g. I can now feel my big toe against the top of the shoe, which I couldn't before). This is when wearing relatively thin Rapha Performance Winter socks and the toe velcro strap as loose as it can be. I can't imagine this feeling of tightness is going to help with the numbness on longer rides at all... So now I'm wondering, should I try a half-size up (i.e. 43.5 - though my local bike shop doesn't stock this) of the same shoe, on the basis that I have a known baseline to progress from, or should I try a different (wider) shoe entirely?
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FWIW in some shoes the half sizes (eg 43.5 rather than 43) are built on the same sole moulding as the smaller size, just with a revised upper. You can tell if this is likely the case by careful measurement. In some cases it is more obvious; the '.5' bit either isn't marked at all on the sole moulding or is marked in a very different typeface or something.
Needless to say sometimes the half size is noticably wider and sometimes it isn't.
cheers
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FWIW in some shoes the half sizes (eg 43.5 rather than 43) are built on the same sole moulding as the smaller size, just with a revised upper. You can tell if this is likely the case by careful measurement. In some cases it is more obvious; the '.5' bit either isn't marked at all on the sole moulding or is marked in a very different typeface or something.
Needless to say sometimes the half size is noticably wider and sometimes it isn't.
Thanks Brucey, I hadn't thought of that. As far as I can tell, there are no markings on the sole moulding for my existing Specialized Torch shoes. I can't measure the shoes without ordering them in, either through my LBS or online, as my LBS doesn't stock half sizes, though I guess I could just return them, if they're no wider. I'm just concerned that 44 are going to be too much larger.
BTW what other makes of cycling shoes either come up quite wide (not Fizik, I'm guessing!) or have specific wide options?
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quite often there is a mark somewhere on the sole moulding which indicates the size. Often you have to pull the insole out of the shoe to see it.
Dunno much about wide shoes; I have fairly narrow feet; I have only ever rejected one pair of shoes (that I got as far as buying) which were narrow enough to hurt my feet.
cheers
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quite often there is a mark somewhere on the sole moulding which indicates the size. Often you have to pull the insole out of the shoe to see it.
Under the insole my current (size 43) Specialized shoes say this on the top of the sole: 1802031306 (same for both shoes), but not sure of that's particularly helpful
Dunno much about wide shoes; I have fairly narrow feet; I have only ever rejected one pair of shoes (that I got as far as buying) which were narrow enough to hurt my feet.
I've never needed particularly wide normal shoes before, so it does surprise me a little in this case, especially as I'd understood Specialized shoes where wider than many, but perhaps I just got too small a size?
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Snip
Thanks Brucey, I hadn't thought of that. As far as I can tell, there are no markings on the sole moulding for my existing Specialized Torch shoes. I can't measure the shoes without ordering them in, either through my LBS or online, as my LBS doesn't stock half sizes, though I guess I could just return them, if they're no wider. I'm just concerned that 44 are going to be too much larger.
BTW what other makes of cycling shoes either come up quite wide (not Fizik, I'm guessing!) or have specific wide options?
Lake. Yes, and they are Italian. I got talking to the salesman on the Lake stand at Bespoked last year. He suggested I try some shoes on, I laughed at him and said he hadn't got any wide enough. "Oh yes we have, try these". They were comfy, really comfy. And they cost £270! They were a pair of shoes with the new knitted uppers and a series of sort of straps which came up over the knitted upper. Great in Italian sunshine, but not so good in the cold on our mucky roads, but they were comfy...
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Lake. Yes, and they are Italian. I got talking to the salesman on the Lake stand at Bespoked last year. He suggested I try some shoes on, I laughed at him and said he hadn't got any wide enough. "Oh yes we have, try these". They were comfy, really comfy. And they cost £270! They were a pair of shoes with the new knitted uppers and a series of sort of straps which came up over the knitted upper. Great in Italian sunshine, but not so good in the cold on our mucky roads, but they were comfy...
The pricing was a little more sane for the Specialized Torch shoes, around £125 I think. I wouldn't fancy knitted uppers, though, even in Spring (and what often usually passes for "summer" in the UK) that would probably be a bit too chilly
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Hi @oxford_guy - any update on your insoles and numbness? How are you getting on? I think I just need to bite the bullet and get a shoe fit done somewhere in south london to sort my shoe size/innersole/cleat type out once and for all.
If anyone has any good recommendations / ideas on how I can do this (as cheaply as possible) that would be great.
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Hi @oxford_guy - any update on your insoles and numbness? How are you getting on? I think I just need to bite the bullet and get a shoe fit done somewhere in south london to sort my shoe size/innersole/cleat type out once and for all.
Bit early to tell, have not done any long, fast rides since I've got the new footbeds. I did a slow 30 mile leisure ride with some friends last weekend and didn't get any numbness or feeling of a bar under my feet for that, but I really wasn't pushing hard on the pedals for that ride. The shoes did feel a bit tight, as mentioned previously, though.