Open Pro's to Zonda's... worth it?

[Brucey]

I had a pair of Zondas back in 2011 ........ After about 1500 km, the wheels slowly started getting out of true. It was not only a pain in the a**e to make them true again, but the flat spokes on the front wheel kept rotating, which made me seriously question the idea of better aerodynamics with flat spokes.

apparently 'there are advantages' to straight pull spokes.

 I'm damned if I can see any worth having, unless perhaps you are determined not to stress-relieve your wheels or something. I can see plenty of downsides....  Needless to say there are numerous factory wheels with straight pull aero spokes that I wouldn't give you tuppence for, because the spokes often slowly rotate in service, resulting in a net aero deficit.

 Normal J-bend aero spokes just need to be untwisted when the wheel is trued (which is good practice anyway even with round spokes) . Other than that they don't seem like they are such a terrible thing, until it comes to sourcing identical replacements, that is....

BTW I am predisposed against wheels without very many spokes in (*), for several reasons. Even the wheel manufacturers will quietly admit it is just a fashion, if pushed.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html

(*) A 'sensible' lower value will vary with the rim stiffness used.  But in any event there is little penalty for having a few more spokes than is strictly  necessary, however you choose to define it.

cheers

[halvis]

Just thought I would report that I have now tried the Zonda wheels on my Fratello bike.  Both with Conti 4000 25mm and Conti 4 Seasons 28mm.

As you all predicted, the biggest difference appears to be with the tyres.  I tried the 4000 tyres first and the wheels spun up a little quicker and appeared to give less rolling resistance (what you would expect).

Then went with the 4 Seasons and the wheels felt pretty much the same as the Mavic' rimmed wheels, except for ride quality.

Given the stiffer build, the ride quality is very poor on the Zonda's.  It's OK on a good surface road (you can still feel the extra stiffnes though), but near bloody un-usable on a bad road (of which we have many right now after all of the rain).

I haven't been able to put much power through these wheels due to a back problem since Christmas and therefore didn't notice much improvement in power transfer tbh.  Others may have a different experience if they are pushing more watts through.

With the extra 3mm internal rim width, I do appear to get at least another 2mm of tyre width from the 28mm 4 Seasons, but couldn't really feel the comfort benefit, probably due to the stiffer wheel build.  As I think I mentioned, the H Plus SON build I had before were much nicer as far as ride quality goes.

Anyway, glad I didn't buy them as they don't suit my riding style.

Thanks for all of your help, it was dead on!

[Hot Flatus]

Take what the old farts say with a sack of salt. 12 years ago they were telling me my carbon Trek 5500 racebike  "wasn't appropriate for audax". Now they are (nearly) all riding them.

I don't know Zondas but I can tell you changing wheels can make a huge difference to the same frame and rider. I have some handbuilt Zipp303s with CXRay spokes....They don't come close to the feeling of immediacy that I get with my top end wide spoked Kysriums. Same bike same rider.

Equally, massive difference between my DTSwiss R23Spline wheels and my Fulcrum Quattro Carbon DBs.

But....they might not suit you, and factory wheels can be expensive disposable and unserviceable items. You try replacing a Mavic factory rim 5 years after you bought the wheels.

If you can, try a whole bunch of different wheels with the same tyres. Or just ride faster more supple tyres and take the hit on lifespan and puncture resistance.

[mattc]

12 years ago they were telling me my carbon Trek 5500 racebike  "wasn't appropriate for audax".

I wish I'd known you 12 years ago - I bet your face was a sight to behold that day!

[Hot Flatus]

Thanks for posting Matt. I've just won a fiver 

[mattc]

Thanks for posting Matt. I've just won a fiver 

So your "posts by Mattc" alert is still working? I worry when you DON'T reply to my posts 

[Hot Flatus]

Errr.....you replied to me Matt.

[Brucey]

BTW I am an old fart now but I must have been a young fart BITD; I didn't have much time for wheels without many spokes in then, either.

 BITD I did several TTs at about 30mph and I commonly used 36 spoke wheels, (which used to annoy people intensely even then, much to my amusement....)

cheers

[Hot Flatus]

With decent wheels you'd have gone 31mph

[Brucey]

With decent wheels you'd have gone 31mph

Doubt it... I had what you might call 'decent wheels' too and I didn't go any faster on those. I did all my best times on 36 spoke ones.

cheers

[mattc]

Errr.....you replied to me Matt.

oh OK. Let's forget all your past pavlovian responses.  You even turned a thread about a Danish pro into an  obsessive wibble about my posts!

You're a funny little man

[Hot Flatus]

So you reply to me, on a thread, and suddenly it's me who's following you around 

[Samuel D]

Given the stiffer build, the ride quality is very poor on the Zonda's.  It's OK on a good surface road (you can still feel the extra stiffnes though), but near bloody un-usable on a bad road (of which we have many right now after all of the rain).

This claim suggests that you feel the small fraction of a millimetre that axially stiff steel spokes allow an Open Pro rim to bend over hard hits, even though that bending is obscured by the tyre’s ~100 × greater elasticity and much elasticity in the fork, saddle, and handlebars, not to mention the other parts of the bicycle that don’t bend much but more than the rim.

Not only that, but you notice the even tinier difference between the Zonda and the Open Pro-based wheel.

This reminds me of the princess who felt a pea through 20 mattresses and 20 feather beds. Consider whether it’s likelier that you have royal blood or are imagining the whole thing.

[Hot Flatus]

Then there's tyre pressure...
Then there's riding style and skill, some people ride like a sack of potatoes over rough surfaces, some float.

So many variables between different riders.

[halvis]

This claim suggests that you feel the small fraction of a millimetre that axially stiff steel spokes allow an Open Pro rim to bend over hard hits, even though that bending is obscured by the tyre’s ~100 × greater elasticity and much elasticity in the fork, saddle, and handlebars, not to mention the other parts of the bicycle that don’t bend much but more than the rim.

Not only that, but you notice the even tinier difference between the Zonda and the Open Pro-based wheel.

This reminds me of the princess who felt a pea through 20 mattresses and 20 feather beds. Consider whether it’s likelier that you have royal blood or are imagining the whole thing.

There is a difference, for sure, I went out on my Open Pro's this morning over the same road with the same tyre pressures.

I'm just off to rent a van so I can borrow mattresses from all the neighbours.  I'll be sure to report back on the pea thing!

[Brucey]

in fairness once the tyre is a slightly different width and height (because it is mounted on a different width rim) the same tyre pressure may not give the same ride feel, and comparisons may be coloured by that.

cheers

[halvis]

Exactly, many factors contribute to the feel of the wheel.  I am not saying the wheel felt stiffer because of X, Y, Z, but the whole package felt stiffer.

I did think that the Zonda wheel may offer more comfort due to its wider internal width and this may offset some of the claimed stiffness.  However, overall, the ride quality is poorer than my hand-built 32 spoke Open Pro with the narrow profile.

H Plus Son wheels I owned previously, from memory, did offer a a smoother ride, whilst still offering more urgency when power was put through them.  Therefore, personally, I would prefer these over the Zonda's.

[pumpkin]

there is the new OP which has a wider channel and looks fantastic.. HED rims are available. Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic is knowledgeable about these things.

[Karla]

This claim suggests that you feel the small fraction of a millimetre that axially stiff steel spokes allow an Open Pro rim to bend over hard hits, even though that bending is obscured by the tyre’s ~100 × greater elasticity and much elasticity in the fork, saddle, and handlebars, not to mention the other parts of the bicycle that don’t bend much but more than the rim.

Not only that, but you notice the even tinier difference between the Zonda and the Open Pro-based wheel.

This reminds me of the princess who felt a pea through 20 mattresses and 20 feather beds. Consider whether it’s likelier that you have royal blood or are imagining the whole thing.

There is a difference, for sure, I went out on my Open Pro's this morning over the same road with the same tyre pressures.

I'm just off to rent a van so I can borrow mattresses from all the neighbours.  I'll be sure to report back on the pea thing!

TBH I'd guess that the variation in tyre pressure based on you inflating from your pump's gauge will overwhelm any minor differences in the metal parts of the wheel.

[Samuel D]

I think that, to the extent that the perceived differences are real rather than imagined – and I’m not convinced about that – they have to do with something other than vertical acceleration. Noise is my main candidate.

In motor vehicles, much effort is devoted to improving NVH, even though the H there (harshness) is subjective or psychological rather than objective. This is why a modern Volkswagen Polo can feel smoother on a rough road than a rattly Renault 5, even though it subjects its occupants to demonstrably higher accelerations.

[Brucey]

it is as well to remember that the bike isn't perfectly upright all the time; it is obvious when climbing that this is the case, but rather less obvious when you are riding normally. You can judge this from the straightness of your tyre tracks; if they are wavy then the bike is weaving slightly but even if they are pretty straight it doesn't always mean that the bike is perfectly upright all the time.

Whenever the bike isn't perfectly upright the lateral stiffness of the wheel (which is typically lower with minimal-spoke wheelsets) will start to affect the ride quality.  I dunno how important this is but it might be more important than one might think.

Also the wheels will inject a spectrum of vibration frequencies into the fork and the frame; whether this feels good or bad depends on how the frame, fork, and handlebar etc react to those frequencies, and how the rider reacts to them.  [This is why cars feel different BTW]. Remember I said earlier that IMHO the Open Pro wheelset would be likely to be 'well matched' to the frameset? That is in good part what I meant.

cheers

[halvis]

So what is it about the frame that you think it makes a good match to the wheels in my case.  Is the fact that’s it’s possibly not as vertically compliant as more modern carbon bling or....

I’m keen to know as ride quality has actually just become a bit of priority for me as I have just been diagnosed with lower back issues and could do with eliminating as much road buzz as possible.

Thanks


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[Brucey]

I wish I understood what exactly makes the difference and how; I have experimented with a few different wheelsets in a few different framesets and that is what I found.  I assume it is because of the way various parts tend to move around and thus move the parts connected to them but the net result is that there is often a difference that you can feel, and some wheelsets just feel nicer than others.

That the way the wheel moves around (even though it might be only a small amount) might be important is obvious to me; for example you only need to have used a full disc wheel for a short distance to realise that they feel very different indeed to ride on.

cheers