Author Topic: Winter Audax Tyres  (Read 9872 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Winter Audax Tyres
« on: 30 January, 2018, 09:38:54 pm »

Doing my first 200km audax at the weekend, a comment I received from a number of riders was that I was brave to use Marathon greenguard tyres (622x32), and that I should look at something faster if I want to make things easier.

So what do people suggest? What's the balance point for Audax rides for speed vs puncture resistance vs comfort? Should I just bite the bullet and stick 28mm conti 4000s ii tyres on there?

I'm running Pacenti Tl28 rims.

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #1 on: 30 January, 2018, 09:54:36 pm »
28mm Schwalbe Durano Plus? Although you can only get these in rigid rather than folding flavour.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #2 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:01:32 pm »
What leaps from the page for me is not a recommendation, but a memory from the Bryan Chapman several years ago.
I came across Garry King at the first control, and, noticing he was using these tyres, I commented of my surprise to see a very experienced and competent distance cyclist riding such seemingly sluggish things. His response was, 'I've always found them to be pretty robust'.

Needless to say, he finished hours and hours before me!
Guess he could have finished earlier with a faster tyre, but it didn't seem to bother him too much.

Try a few others out and see how you get on.
Personally I quite like the Vittoria Rubino Pro 28s - but I don't think they're regarded as particularly fast either.
Garry Broad

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #3 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:15:17 pm »
GP4000 are nice, they run wide (I measured the 28mm as 31mm on a 19mm internal rim).

Continental 4Seasons are a little slower, but also a little sturdier. It's what I have mounted at the moment (normally I run the very nice but also very expensive Compass Jon Bon Pass 35mm tyres); the 4Seasons also run a little wider: 34mm I'd say.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #4 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:33:55 pm »
Personally I quite like the Vittoria Rubino Pro 28s - but I don't think they're regarded as particularly fast either.

Rubinos score very well on that rolling resistance testing website that everyone always links to as gospel.

I've been using a Rubino Pro III on the front and a Gatorskin on the back (both 23mm). I think I've had one actual puncture in over a year on this setup.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #5 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:35:26 pm »
What leaps from the page for me is not a recommendation, but a memory from the Bryan Chapman several years ago.
I came across Garry King at the first control, and, noticing he was using these tyres, I commented of my surprise to see a very experienced and competent distance cyclist riding such seemingly sluggish things. His response was, 'I've always found them to be pretty robust'.

Needless to say, he finished hours and hours before me!
Guess he could have finished earlier with a faster tyre, but it didn't seem to bother him too much.

Try a few others out and see how you get on.
Personally I quite like the Vittoria Rubino Pro 28s - but I don't think they're regarded as particularly fast either.

I finished the 200km in 12:54. So didn't have much wiggle room. Average speed was 18.9kph.

The Marathons were what I had on the bike for cycling to work, I wonder how many punctures per 200km you'd need to take for the Marathons to be faster than 4000s ii or duranos...

GP4000 are nice, they run wide (I measured the 28mm as 31mm on a 19mm internal rim).

Continental 4Seasons are a little slower, but also a little sturdier. It's what I have mounted at the moment (normally I run the very nice but also very expensive Compass Jon Bon Pass 35mm tyres); the 4Seasons also run a little wider: 34mm I'd say.


Width isn't a major issue, my bike has clearance for 2.8" tyres...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #6 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:42:00 pm »
 Durano plus are unlikely to be very much faster than Marathon Greenguards.

FWIW my preference is for a nice easy-rolling, supple/comfortable tyre, and to put up with the occasional puncture. But others have different priorities. 

One of the ways that puncture resistant tyres catch you out is in terms of comfort. It is easy to look at two tyres and see that at the same pressure one is about the same as another in terms of Crr. What may be hidden is that the one tyre may feel very different to the other, and that if you set them up to be as comfortable as one another (important on a long run, I'd say) then typically a puncture resistant tyre may be  set 10-15psi softer than another, at which point is a fair bit more draggy.

cheers

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #7 on: 30 January, 2018, 10:45:22 pm »
28mm Conti 4 Seasons for comfort and 25mm if you like.

Good tyre for audax and for any time of year.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #8 on: 30 January, 2018, 11:00:28 pm »
I'm quite fond of both the Rubino Pro 28 and the Marathon Supreme 28.

The Rubino is more comfortable but the Supreme feels beter on cold wet winter roads.  Both have been reliable so far as punctures go.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #9 on: 31 January, 2018, 02:54:57 am »
I finished the 200km in 12:54. So didn't have much wiggle room. Average speed was 18.9kph.
OT - That sounds to me like a lot of time off the bike, if you're looking for a faster finish I think there could be more to be gained here than with a change of tyre.
Back on topic - This time of year I'll usually use a touring bike and take advantage of the better clearances, currently on 32mm Marathon Supremes, couldn't ask for better if you want a wider tyre.  When the weather picks up a bit I'll be back on the lighter Audax bike with 28mm Conti 4 seasons, they're faster but it's hard to say by how much, I doubt it'd be more than half an hour over a 200.   

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #10 on: 31 January, 2018, 07:24:29 am »
28mm GP4 seasons work for me.  I tend to average about 25km/h riding speed on either upright or recumbent. 
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #11 on: 31 January, 2018, 07:47:42 am »
Conti 4Seasons for me
Eddington Number = 132

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #12 on: 31 January, 2018, 08:40:22 am »
I finished the 200km in 12:54. So didn't have much wiggle room. Average speed was 18.9kph.
OT - That sounds to me like a lot of time off the bike, if you're looking for a faster finish I think there could be more to be gained here than with a change of tyre.

Total time moving: 10:44:26,
Total elapsed time: 12:54:07

So I was in controls, or stopped for just under 70 minutes over the 774 minutes. Which includes doing a quick repair, a cheese toastie and warming up in control 1, and chips and warming up in control 2. In warmer weather I'm sure I could shorten the time spent warming up in a control...

Quote
Back on topic - This time of year I'll usually use a touring bike and take advantage of the better clearances, currently on 32mm Marathon Supremes, couldn't ask for better if you want a wider tyre.  When the weather picks up a bit I'll be back on the lighter Audax bike with 28mm Conti 4 seasons, they're faster but it's hard to say by how much, I doubt it'd be more than half an hour over a 200.   

What do you define as a lighter bike? I'm using a steel framed bike that's about 10-11kg if I take all the crap off it.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #13 on: 31 January, 2018, 09:51:06 am »
With a brevet like last Saturday's, where climbing is measured in inches instead of yards, bike weight is irrelevant (unless you're the sprinting type).

I had a look at bicyclerollingresistance.com, the rolling resistance of a 37mm (measured: 35mm) Marathon Green @ 5bar is the same as a 25mm (measured: 27mm) 4Season @ 5.5bar. The GP4000 will save about 7W though (19.x vs 12.x Watt).

Judging from the bike calculator you would indeed save about 30 minutes riding time with 7W less rolling resistance (parameters: combined weight of 85kg, elevation 0, temperature 5, power 60W/67W). Also play around with the "position" variable on the calculator: a slight change of moving your hands from the tops to the brake hoods will save about as much time as faster tyres...

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #14 on: 31 January, 2018, 09:53:45 am »
Total time moving: 10:44:26,
Total elapsed time: 12:54:07

That's 130 minutes stopped, not 70, isn't it?

It's definitely trimmable, but if it includes a repair and a couple of controls I wouldn't worry too much - I find it very difficult to spend less than 40 or 45 mins at a control where I'm eating. And you had more than half an hour in hand at the end.

I don't think you'll gain much on the bike either (am I right in thinking you're restricted to just one bike?), though maybe a set of lighter wheels and tyres would make it feel a bit more responsive, and give a benefit out of proportion to the weight loss. (I've got Michelin Pro4 Endurance on one bike, and Schwalbe One Tubeless on another - both seem fine for audax speeds and distances on grotty roads.)

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #15 on: 31 January, 2018, 09:56:09 am »
According to your numbers you spent approximately 130 minutes not moving, not 70.  So there is an hour missing somewhere.
Clever enough to know I'm not clever enough.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #16 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:00:24 am »
Under 13 hours for a winter 200 including a repair? And you're in NL so it's headwind all the way. Positively flying! Sure, some will finish in less than half that time, but you have to want to.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #17 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:03:33 am »
Doing my first 200km audax at the weekend

Congratulations, welcome to the madness.

I took about the same amount of time on my first 200. If you keep doing them then you'll get faster. For the moment I wouldn't overthink it.

I was doing 80km a week of pan-flat commuting and then one Audax a month or so and my times started to come down. I was able to move through controls faster simply because I wasn't so broken when arriving at each one, I didn't need as much of a rest. I was also faster on the road.

I use 25mm GP 4 Seasons year round usually but I've done Audaxes on 23mm tyres on a carbon bike with no problems. It's not really about the bike.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

dim

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #18 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:11:40 am »
I don't mind paying a bit more for quality tyres.

My current commuter is fitted with Specialized Turbo Cottons. (My first set of these) ...

These are by far the best clinchers that I have ever used, and I would not hesitate to use them for an Audax ride, on condition that they don't have more than 700-800km wear on them. (I think that after 1500 km, they may start wearing thin). So far, I have cycled 1050 km on them, with one puncture (which would have punctured a Durano Plus).... they grip like superglue are fast, and are very good in the wet aswell.

I watched a video a while back, and that is what convinced me to give them a try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynD0Rwc3Ius

Prior to these, I used Vittoria Open Pave CGIII, and after 2500km I started getting multiple punctures. I also found that they were not as 'smooth, fast and comfortable as the Turbo Cottons, so I doubt if I would buy them again)

I used to own a Surly LHT with 26 inch wheels and I used the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme (35mm wide) .... they were ok. I sold the bike with them still fitted and had zero punctures after 2,958.5km, and they still looked in good condition. If I had kept the bike, my next set of tyres would have been the Compass Rat Trap Pass

I have used Conti GP 4000 SII .... they are ok, but I did have sidewall issues on 2 of them (Wiggle refunded on both occasions) .... I found that using latex tubes gained me some speed on the flats. I have also used Durano Plus (bombproof but not a plush ride), Conti 4 seasons (I actually liked these and had them fitted to my Specialized S-Works.... and I also tried  Gator Hardhell (really crap tyres IMHO, and they don't grip well in the wet)

I'm hoping to buy a new bike next month which I will uses for some Audax rides, aswell as commuting, and I'm leaning towards the Specialized Diverge E5 Comp) .... this bike can take tyres up to 40mm wide and I may look closely at the Compass tyres until I have a tubeless ready wheelset built with a Dynamo Hub etc

As far as tubeless, I'm still new to this but can say that I'm very impressed with the 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC ... I would definately buy these again

Some of the guys who I follow on Strava use Vittoria Rubino Pro (Graphene) clinchers and they are happy with these (they cycle along the busway/cycle path between St Ives and Cambridge, and this section is pretty bad when it comes to punctures/crap on the road (it's like 'puncture alley') .... I have not tried these yet
“No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness.” - Aristotle

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #19 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:15:35 am »
Total time moving: 10:44:26,
Total elapsed time: 12:54:07

That's 130 minutes stopped, not 70, isn't it?

I can maths, honest... You are right. 130 minutes, not 70.

Quote

It's definitely trimmable, but if it includes a repair and a couple of controls I wouldn't worry too much - I find it very difficult to spend less than 40 or 45 mins at a control where I'm eating. And you had more than half an hour in hand at the end.

I was with a small group of Germans, I followed their routine at the first control, and arrived after them at the 2nd, so was there a shorter time than them. I did ponder the relative merits of eating on the move and food choices that are easier to ingest while moving. In my rush to leave the house on Friday night I grabbed 2 800ml bottles, thinking I would put one on the pouch by the stem, and one in the bottle rack on the frame, I could then use the second pouch on the stem to store biscuits, chocolate, etc... that I can graze on without stopping. What I failed to remember is that the 800ml bottles don't fit in the frame. What's annoying is the 600ml bottles that do fit, are on the shelf next to the 800's I could have picked them up...

But then it's hard to eat when you're wearing thick gloves that seem to have far too much of a coating of chain oil on them... I'm sure they used to be yellow...

Quote

I don't think you'll gain much on the bike either (am I right in thinking you're restricted to just one bike?), though maybe a set of lighter wheels and tyres would make it feel a bit more responsive, and give a benefit out of proportion to the weight loss. (I've got Michelin Pro4 Endurance on one bike, and Schwalbe One Tubeless on another - both seem fine for audax speeds and distances on grotty roads.)

I am currently limited to a choice of 2 bikes: Brompton (16 speed heavily customised), or my self built steel bike based on the Genesis Vagabond frame. I am in discussions with a frame builder about an S&S coupled steel steed as a general purpose adventure/audax/tourer bike.

Wheel wise I switched at the start of December from Ryde DP18 rims on Shimano Deore hubs, to Pacenti TL28 rims, with a Shimano DH-T8000 front hub, and the rear is a Shimano Deore XT hub (can't remember the model off the top of my head). Wheels were built by Madmen Cycles in Amsterdam using Sapim spokes. This shaved a few hundred grams off the weight of the wheels compared to the old DP18 wheels. But I'm at the point where I'm on real diminishing returns unless I go either full carbon, or throw a lot of money at lighter hubs. I could save some rotating weight by switching from Marathon green guards to pretty much anything else tho. I'm just not sure what that would get me bar perhaps the marginalist of marginal gains on a hill.

As I said at the start of the thread, several people commented that I should investigate faster tyres, hence this thread. I'm still uncertain how much is to be gained by spending €60-100 on a new set of rubber. I'm just glad I switched from the Studded tyres to the greenguards the week before...

Doing my first 200km audax at the weekend

Congratulations, welcome to the madness.

Thanks... I sat down with a calendar last night and pencilled in all the BRM's I want to do this year. It's a full diary.

Quote

I took about the same amount of time on my first 200. If you keep doing them then you'll get faster. For the moment I wouldn't overthink it.

I was doing 80km a week of pan-flat commuting and then one Audax a month or so and my times started to come down. I was able to move through controls faster simply because I wasn't so broken when arriving at each one, I didn't need as much of a rest. I was also faster on the road.

I ride ~15km per day round trip to commute, but I've been taking longer rides home to up the milage, doing anything from 8-53km as a ride home from work.

In December I had this crazy idea of challenging myself to ride 6054km in 2018 (3x2018). Hence the longer rides. The Audax rides came separate from that goal. I'm currently 40km ahead of pace for this, but I have 5 days off the bike next week as I'm at a conference :(

Quote

I use 25mm GP 4 Seasons year round usually but I've done Audaxes on 23mm tyres on a carbon bike with no problems. It's not really about the bike.

Interesting.

Under 13 hours for a winter 200 including a repair? And you're in NL so it's headwind all the way. Positively flying! Sure, some will finish in less than half that time, but you have to want to.

There was a headwind for the first 80km or so. It wasn't too bad, started as a force 2, but it got stronger as we got further west. Then we turned and the wind was behind us, I went from 18pkh cruising speed to 24+kph. It was great. Then the route turned more across the wind, which sucked. Just before the last control we turned south into the wind, it was utterly brutal. There was only about 2km of it, but it was a grind I was down to about 12kph for that bit. Post control, was back up in the 20kph area, then 15k from the end turned back into the wind, with a long 1km gradient, only a few meters in ascent, barely enough to count as an up, but the combo of wind and non flat meant I was down to 10kph for that slog. Then what should be a coast down the other side (also about 1km), wasn't because of the wind.

I'm used to the idea of an Omnidirectional headwind in the Netherlands, but this ride really made me understand why some people call it the Dutch mountains. I understand why Dutch pro riders are so damn good in the hills!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #20 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:31:30 am »
As I said at the start of the thread, several people commented that I should investigate faster tyres, hence this thread. I'm still uncertain how much is to be gained by spending €60-100 on a new set of rubber. I'm just glad I switched from the Studded tyres to the greenguards the week before...
IMO&E, tyres are the most noticeable difference you can make to your bike in terms of effect per $.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #21 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:33:16 am »
(I think that after 1500 km, they may start wearing thin).

I'm as much of a tyre tart as the next cyclist but 1500km? Really?  :o :o

Vittoria Rubino Pro (Graphene)

I'm friends with a guy whose job it is to find commercial applications for University of Manchester's tech. The fact that he's a keen cyclist and doesn't run these tyres probably says it all.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #22 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:40:51 am »
I think you did very well  for your first 200K audax, I normally take about the same time.
I don't think it matters what time you finish in as long as you enjoyed the ride.
As for tyres, I have had a range of them over the years and now run 23c Conti 4 Seasons. I find these fast enough for audax and pretty good puncture resistance with good grip all round.
My bike weighs around 12Kg crap free. as long as you have enough low gearing to get over steep hills when your legs have had it that's more important imo.
John

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #23 on: 31 January, 2018, 11:55:23 am »
Plenty of people use Marathons for audax, especially over the winter. Nothing wrong with them, works fine, and means very little chance of any punctures. And fairly grippy, not too bad if you have a bit of mud/dirt on the roads.
Yes, Marathon Supreme are better, they feel a bit nicer, and a lot lighter weight, and still pretty puncture proof. But not sure how much difference it really makes to overall speed.

Re: Winter Audax Tyres
« Reply #24 on: 31 January, 2018, 12:18:40 pm »
Back on topic - This time of year I'll usually use a touring bike and take advantage of the better clearances, currently on 32mm Marathon Supremes, couldn't ask for better if you want a wider tyre.  When the weather picks up a bit I'll be back on the lighter Audax bike with 28mm Conti 4 seasons, they're faster but it's hard to say by how much, I doubt it'd be more than half an hour over a 200.   

What do you define as a lighter bike? I'm using a steel framed bike that's about 10-11kg if I take all the crap off it.

J

That would be my lighter bike!  The tourer I'm on this time of year is closer to 15kg.  I wouldn't like to estimate the difference, or what to attribute it to (Weight, tyres, riding position...) Whatever the disadvantages are, there's some winter rides where the advantages outweigh them.