Composers

[Steph]

Pissed off today, so a thought. My faves, in order, of those who understand how to use an orchestra.
Mahler
Sibelius
Beethoven
Bruckner
Shostakovitch.

[nicknack]

Messiaen
Berg
Britten

[Wowbagger]

J. S. Bach (without a doubt... Bach every time for me).
W. A. Mozart
Beethoven

This order changes with the mood, and whatever piece I am learning at the time. I don't normally rate Chopin, for example, but I have recently started to learn his waltz, op 64 no 2, and it's a lovely piece. But no matter what, those three above occupy the top slots, but not necessarily in that order.

[phantasmagoriana]

J. S. Bach (without a doubt... Bach every time for me).

That.

[Karla]

Glad we all agree 

[Steph]

And there are the results of individual taste! 

I was thinking of the actual ability to handle the technical;ities of orchestras, rather than the Art of Fugue, etc. Mahler is not my favourite composer, though A fave, but I admire his technical virtuosity with instrumentation. I heard a quote yesterday on R3 that chimed with my view on Beethoven: Mozart on steroids, and that was indeed apt.

I believe it was Schoenberg, conducting one of Mahler's works (the 6th?), who Mahler kept telling to boost the brass in one section.

"But Gustav, if I do that, they will end up drowning out the strings!"
"Exactly!"

There are any number of guitarists I admire for their amazing technique, but whose out put of music I consider to be utter shite; that sort of sums up what I was thinking.

[Jakob W]

I read a piece years ago that suggested the canonical list of greatest composers was Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, plus one other of your choice. Hipster bonus points for being obscure, contentious, or otherwise: Brahms and Mahler are run-of-the-mill, but Gorecki, Charles Ives, Ligeti, or even Paul McCartney are the choices of the connoisseur, or at least of the iconoclast.

For symphonic music, mind, the orchestra and conductor can make a huge difference to the overall effect, but for my money Wagner has to go on the list; it's a truism, but after him classical music didn't have anywhere else to go except by breaking with the past.

[perpetual dan]

Mozart rarely excites me, so I’d go with Beethoven, Sibelius and ... depends on my mood. Maybe Ligeti, maybe Terry Riley on the basis that he does “understand how to use an orchestra” by crediting them with some musicality.


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[Steph]

Thanks to all so far for a really thoughtful and interesting set of replies

[Mr Larrington]

No-one has mentioned John Cage yet?  Standards are slipping.

[Steph]

Didn't he write that big hit for the Tremeloes?

[Peter]

No-one has mentioned John Cage yet?  Standards are slipping.

He's been mentioned several times but nobody heard.

[pcolbeck]

Interesting

My gut reaction as with any  what's best in classical would be the same as WoWs ie JS Bach however he didn't really do large scale orchestration sometimes you hear Bach stuff like that but that's probably someone else's orchestration (eg Mendelssohn).

So I had to think again. The first two would be the exemplars of putting a large orchestra to good use rather than just making everything louder ie using it for varied textures and effects.

Mahler
Wagner
Elgar
Brahms
Shostakovich

[clarion]

Using an orchestra?  Multifaceted, that.  Do we mean getting the most from?  Or dominating the orchestra to the composer's purpose?  Or the blending of the various sections to best effect?

Keeping it broad, I'd say:

Stravinsky
Beethoven
Mahler
Sibelius
Bruckner

Unranked, because they all qualify for different reasons.

[pcolbeck]

I'd forgotten Bruckner !

[clarion]

I would have done, too, if Steph hadn't mentioned him in her OP!

[rogerzilla]

Mozart
Rachmaninov
Khachaturian
Tchaikovsky

(A bit Russian-heavy, I know)

[pcolbeck]

Korngold

His orchestration and style have been massively influential on film music.

[Steph]

As an aside, I have a vinyl recording of Bruckner's 8th by Barbirolli. I name the conductor rather than the orchestra because for a lot of the recording the dominant sound is the conductor sort-of-grunting-sort-of-singing to the music.

[pcolbeck]

As an aside, I have a vinyl recording of Bruckner's 8th by Barbirolli. I name the conductor rather than the orchestra because for a lot of the recording the dominant sound is the conductor sort-of-grunting-sort-of-singing to the music.

That reminds me of Glenn Gould's humming that you can hear in the background of his Bach recordings. He doesn't actually hum the tune though its thougth that he hums the counterpoint to the melody.

[citoyen]

J. S. Bach (without a doubt... Bach every time for me).
W. A. Mozart
Beethoven

This order changes with the mood, and whatever piece I am learning at the time. I don't normally rate Chopin, for example, but I have recently started to learn his waltz, op 64 no 2, and it's a lovely piece. But no matter what, those three above occupy the top slots, but not necessarily in that order.

For a few months a couple of years ago, I found myself needing to drive to the station every morning just before 7am, so I took to listening to the regular Bach they always play in that slot on Radio 3. Never been much of a Bach aficionado but I always found that an enjoyable way to start the day. Made some really interesting discoveries of stuff I'd never heard before.

Used to listen to a lot of Tchaikovsky and Brahms and Rachmaninov but my tastes are generally more modern and minimalist these days - got quite into Steve Reich a while ago.

[Efrogwr]

Steph specifically referred to composers' use of orchestral resources.

Haydn used a relatively small orchestra with much simpler instruments to great effect.

Richard Strauss made good use of the orchestra as we now know it.

[citoyen]

Steph specifically referred to composers' use of orchestral resources.

In that case... Aaron Copland is a name that stands out for me, for the way he uses the orchestra to capture and evoke the essence of American life and culture.

And for similar reasons, George Gershwin, of course.

[Ian H]

Steph specifically referred to composers' use of orchestral resources.

Haydn used a relatively small orchestra with much simpler instruments to great effect.

Richard Strauss made good use of the orchestra as we now know it.

Orchestras were smaller before the later nineteenth century.  Beethoven, for instance, is more often played by 'full-sized' orchestras than smaller 'authentic' groups. 

Roger Norrington recorded all of Beethoven's symphonies with a small orchestra on period instruments.  However, I must admit that, the last time I listened to one, it sounded terribly wooden.

[Steph]

R3 played the Haydn London symphony today, and I was reminded why I love it so much. Masterful, majestic writing indeed. I am now having a very odd thought, after Ian H's reminder about orchestra sizes, and a conversation I had yesterday about the rugby, and in particular George North. One variant of that is the perennial question of whether the evil sods who formed the Pooler front row would heva survived, playing under the old Laws, versus a modern front row.

The musical part of my reverie was to wonder how someone like Haydn, or Bach senior, would have reacted when confronted with experiencing a modern orchestra playing, say, Mahler's 7th, and then being handed the keys to the conductor's box (ITSWIM).

Both Wagner and Mahler, at least, along with Sousa and Saxe, created New Toyz, or, especially Mahler, came up with new ways of using existing ones (horns in Mahler 2nd, bass strings in Beethoven 6th). Look at how the greats reacted when pianos arrived and then developed as an example.