Value for money in the Audax world

[Wycombewheeler]

Seems fine to me given the amount of faff involved in putting an event on.

It is silly how vague most events are about catering - some of them put loads of effort in and make no mention of it in the description, so I usually assume there'll be none.

I agree... there might be an element of not wanting to commit until the numbers are certain.

That said, I have done a few events where I got nothing more than validation for 6 pounds and given they were BP, even validation was of not much use... given a Perm or DIY costs half of that, I wonder where the rest of the money has gone. If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.

The thong is. When the ride is listed the organiser cannot know if it is going to attract 10 riders or 100. So how to set the price to cover the non scalable costs?

The fact is I go round an audax and spend £20 On food + the £6 entry and I look at sportives costing upwards of £30 for which I would get worse food and a crappy medal that must cost no more than £1.

I can't come to any other conclusion than they are good value. If the organiser gets a large field and so gets a financial bonus he's probably created a great route. I am very relaxed about the making some money on this. I'm sure it doesn't work out as a high hourly rate for all the time investment.

[jiberjaber]

You probably need to consider cash flow as well as costs.  A buffer de-risks some of the up front cost commitments they need to make in organising their other more involved events.

Here's the thing... let's say the organiser has a car park start and a cafe' finish to stay warm waiting for finishers... nothing is included in the 6 quid fee. On the day, it turns out there are 60 brevet cards waiting to be picked up, for a total of 342 quid after paypal and 222 quid surplus, assuming they all finish and validate. Once he's paid for 6 cups of tea for himself and lunch and a slice of cake, there's 200 quid left on the table...

Would you rather ask the cafe' owner if they can give all finishers a hot drink and beans on toast or put the money away for a rainy day?

I'd do the former to be honest and was a bit disappointed to see others didn't

To put it in to context, I am on about if the org has to book in advance and put deposits down for halls etc on any of their other events - that was the type of cash flow I am talking about.  Why should they use their own personal cash to pre-fund and take the risk ? 

Then there's the catering and other bits.... sometimes there's an Audaxers menu at commercial controls which might also be subsidised....   

I think you are going to get a fair number of differing views as there isn't a set way of organising....   

[whosatthewheel]

Seems fine to me given the amount of faff involved in putting an event on.

It is silly how vague most events are about catering - some of them put loads of effort in and make no mention of it in the description, so I usually assume there'll be none.

I agree... there might be an element of not wanting to commit until the numbers are certain.

That said, I have done a few events where I got nothing more than validation for 6 pounds and given they were BP, even validation was of not much use... given a Perm or DIY costs half of that, I wonder where the rest of the money has gone. If there are 20 riders on the line, I don't mind, but when there are 100, I really really would like to know where the money has gone.

The thong is. When the ride is listed the organiser cannot know if it is going to attract 10 riders or 100. So how to set the price to cover the non scalable costs?

The fact is I go round an audax and spend £20 On food + the £6 entry and I look at sportives costing upwards of £30 for which I would get worse food and a crappy medal that must cost no more than £1.

I can't come to any other conclusion than they are good value. If the organiser gets a large field and so gets a financial bonus he's probably created a great route. I am very relaxed about the making some money on this. I'm sure it doesn't work out as a high hourly rate for all the time investment.

Yes but (once again) I was talking about events that offer nothing more than validation, hence they only have scalable costs.

That was the all point of the thread... I think

[whosatthewheel]

You probably need to consider cash flow as well as costs.  A buffer de-risks some of the up front cost commitments they need to make in organising their other more involved events.

Here's the thing... let's say the organiser has a car park start and a cafe' finish to stay warm waiting for finishers... nothing is included in the 6 quid fee. On the day, it turns out there are 60 brevet cards waiting to be picked up, for a total of 342 quid after paypal and 222 quid surplus, assuming they all finish and validate. Once he's paid for 6 cups of tea for himself and lunch and a slice of cake, there's 200 quid left on the table...

Would you rather ask the cafe' owner if they can give all finishers a hot drink and beans on toast or put the money away for a rainy day?

I'd do the former to be honest and was a bit disappointed to see others didn't

To put it in to context, I am on about if the org has to book in advance and put deposits down for halls etc on any of their other events - that was the type of cash flow I am talking about.  Why should they use their own personal cash to pre-fund and take the risk ? 

Then there's the catering and other bits.... sometimes there's an Audaxers menu at commercial controls which might also be subsidised....   

I think you are going to get a fair number of differing views as there isn't a set way of organising....

Yes, but again, I was talking about events that offer none of that... basically the money only covers the validation, but the entry fee is 3 to 4 times higher than the validation costs

[Wycombewheeler]

I know of only one event I have ridden that started at the organisers house. In all other cases the organiser has had to travel to the start as well as riding a route check previously.

I believe the Dean is run by ACH I do not think travel from east London to Oxford is a trivial matter.

Personally I would rather pay £6 and fund my own food than pay £25 to have food chosen by someone else provided. YMMV. I woukd hate to see the end of x rated brevet.

[whosatthewheel]

I know of only one event I have ridden that started at the organisers house. In all other cases the organiser has had to travel to the start as well as riding a route check previously.

I believe the Dean is run by ACH I do not think travel from east London to Oxford is a trivial matter.

Personally I would rather pay £6 and fund my own food than pay £25 to have food chosen by someone else provided. YMMV. I woukd hate to see the end of x rated brevet.

None of the above.
Judging by the organisers addresses, they had to travel less than 5 miles to the start and being BP route checks probably take 5-6 hours.

There is not going to be an end to X-rated brevets, in fact I was thinking to put up a long(ish) one for next year and when I did a bit of maths, with a car park start and postal finish, I worked out it was impossible to make a loss by charging as little as 3 quid per rider

I could charge 7 to make it more committal and offer an event mug to all finishers or something (although posting N mugs would be a royal PITA)

[grams]

Since you have their home addresses, perhaps get straight to the point and put a dog turd through their letterboxes? It would save everyone here a lot of time.

[Tull924]

None of the above.
Judging by the organisers addresses, they had to travel less than 5 miles to the start and being BP route checks probably take 5-6 hours.

That is seriously quick riding

in fact I was thinking to put up a long(ish) one for next year and when I did a bit of maths, with a car park start and postal finish, I worked out it was impossible to make a loss by charging as little as 3 quid per rider

I look forward to entering it. Please can you make sure it is near my house and that the weather is nothing less than perfect. Please don't be offended if I cancel after the last minute and demand a refund via paypal. After you have organised the event you will be in the perfect position to tell us how much organisers should charge for events

[whosatthewheel]

I look forward to entering it. Please can you make sure it is near my house and that the weather is nothing less than perfect. Please don't be offended if I cancel after the last minute and demand a refund via paypal. After you have organised the event you will be in the perfect position to tell us how much organisers should charge for events

Paypal gives buyers 60 days to claim a refund. Opening early insures the ride is full well before 60 days before the event. At that point you can close online entries and only accept postal entries if you want to have more riders... simples... 

[jiberjaber]

You probably need to consider cash flow as well as costs.  A buffer de-risks some of the up front cost commitments they need to make in organising their other more involved events.

Here's the thing... let's say the organiser has a car park start and a cafe' finish to stay warm waiting for finishers... nothing is included in the 6 quid fee. On the day, it turns out there are 60 brevet cards waiting to be picked up, for a total of 342 quid after paypal and 222 quid surplus, assuming they all finish and validate. Once he's paid for 6 cups of tea for himself and lunch and a slice of cake, there's 200 quid left on the table...

Would you rather ask the cafe' owner if they can give all finishers a hot drink and beans on toast or put the money away for a rainy day?

I'd do the former to be honest and was a bit disappointed to see others didn't

To put it in to context, I am on about if the org has to book in advance and put deposits down for halls etc on any of their other events - that was the type of cash flow I am talking about.  Why should they use their own personal cash to pre-fund and take the risk ? 

Then there's the catering and other bits.... sometimes there's an Audaxers menu at commercial controls which might also be subsidised....   

I think you are going to get a fair number of differing views as there isn't a set way of organising....

Yes, but again, I was talking about events that offer none of that... basically the money only covers the validation, but the entry fee is 3 to 4 times higher than the validation costs

Again... I was talking about the type of event you refer to being used to build up the coffers for the cash flow of an organisers other more resource hungry events... but anyhow - you've obviously got a bee in your bonnet on this one!   

Why not name and shame (off to get popcorn)...

[Arry-R]

If an org has funds left over from an event then surely they must be given to AUK? After all it is run by them. All funds could then be put to good use, such as a new website....
[/quote]

AUK coordinates events but doesn't run them - they are run by clubs or individuals.
[/quote]

PLUS ONE and well said

[whosatthewheel]

Again... I was talking about the type of event you refer to being used to build up the coffers for the cash flow of an organisers other more resource hungry events...

Oh, I see...

[Hot Flatus]

Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW 

[BlackSheep]

Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW 

Sounds like a plan, might even give it a go.

[Philip Whiteman]

If an org has funds left over from an event then surely they must be given to AUK? After all it is run by them. All funds could then be put to good use, such as a new website....

AUK coordinates events but doesn't run them - they are run by clubs or individuals.

Entirely so. 
 
If organisers became regarded as funding cash-cows for AUK Ltd then most would cease to organise events. My club for one, would no longer support audax events.

[Ian H]

Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW 

Sounds like a plan, might even give it a go.

The late, great Nik Peregrine did pretty much that:  £1 in those days.

[jsabine]

Yes, but again, I was talking about events that offer none of that... basically the money only covers the validation, but the entry fee is 3 to 4 times higher than the validation costs

They're a cash cow for the organisers, designed to fund retirement to the Caymans. They won't be able to run events once they're no longer UK residents, so your complaint will die a natural death in a year or two.

[hellymedic]

Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW 

Sounds like a plan, might even give it a go.

The late, great Nik Peregrine did pretty much that:  £1 in those days.

And they were great events!

As has been pointed out, the cost of travel and accommodation makes entry fees appear trivial indeed. Fares to Bristol/Chepstow were rather more substantial for me...

[Paul H]

Here's the thing... let's say the organiser has a car park start and a cafe' finish to stay warm waiting for finishers... nothing is included in the 6 quid fee. On the day, it turns out there are 60 brevet cards waiting to be picked up, for a total of 342 quid after paypal and 222 quid surplus, assuming they all finish and validate. Once he's paid for 6 cups of tea for himself and lunch and a slice of cake, there's 200 quid left on the table...

Would you rather ask the cafe' owner if they can give all finishers a hot drink and beans on toast or put the money away for a rainy day?

I'd do the former to be honest and was a bit disappointed to see others didn't

If I've enjoyed the ride I'm happy to buy my own beans on toast and another drink for the organiser if they want one. 
If I haven't enjoyed it, no amount of free food is going to change that. 
Last thing I want is for an organiser to feel any need to justify their decisions, including the entry fee.
My two favourite rides from last year were I think also the dearest and cheapest (£16 & £5) my costs with travel and Travelodges and food was around £100 for each, I would have been equally disappointed if I hadn't enjoyed either.

[hellymedic]

It is 20 years since I did any Audax rides.

I have very scant memory of my entry fees.

I have all kinds of memories of events before, during and after rides.

Event fees do/did not figure in the big scheme of things.

Ever.

[Delph Cyclist]

I'm offended by this whole topic, and I'm probably just a little grateful that I don't know the identity of our friend Whosatthewheel.  Putting together an Audax event doesn't just happen.  Some of the intangibles are: working out a decent route, identifying where the controls are going to be and whether these controls can cope with and welcome the expected numbers, tweaking the route to meet AUK's requirements, etc.  Even after you have an established event, you'd probably need to constantly review whatever is on offer, so it's an ongoing cost.

It's never £6 for nothing, or £6 for just a brevet card, or a brevet card and validation, or for a GPX file (which has nil material value, but is priceless as intellectual property).

What do I do with my surplus?  Look after my controllers and helpers (who you may not even see on the day)?  Make contributions to club funds?  Pay for my own riding entry fees (grossly overpriced as they might seem)?  Buy myself a beer as I worry about that last rider who hasn't yet finished (only to find out the rider finished hours ago and didn't let me know)?  Buy myself another beer as I handle yet another rider query, or defending myself against accusations of profiteering?  Frankly, that's my business (but hint; it's all of the above and more, but I'd pay attention to those beer references). 

It's a good job there are a small number of people prepared to put in the effort.  At times like this, I consider whether I should make Mrs DelphCyclist happy and allow others to continue the good work.  (And yes, I'm happy to hide behind a pseudonym too, although I reckon I may have blown my cover on previous postings)

I think you may be in the wrong club, Whosatthewheel.

[yanto]

I haven't undertaken that many audaxes but I've done enough to realise that I'm paying for a service, all the org's I've met have gone out of their way to help me in the ride be that as simple as pointing out where I might have difficulties with the velomobile, some offer more than others even with the same entry price, but I look at as a bonus if I get anything.

If an org' makes money out of it, so what? Nobody is forcing anybody to enter!

If i want a cheap audax I do a DIY and take my own food, but even then the DIY still has to be validated so the couple of quid it costs is still payment for a service.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It is the tag end of winter and the audaxers get a bit restless sometimes. The mood will blow through within a month.

[Martin]

my events aim to break even any extra is a bonus; I charge a bit more for the X event but that pays for my travel and accommodation as I'm not from those parts; all the surplus goes to charity

I have no problem with £5-6 for an event with no overheads even though it can be done for as little as 55p on paper but that doesn't take into account route checking printing route sheets thanking helpers etc etc

I've paid substantially more for some events and they were worth every penny, as were all the events I've ridden


I confess I often sneak in to very busy café controls and grab a sticker, but absolutely not when they have opened early / late / taken on extra staff specially


+1 LWAB

[hellymedic]

DelphCyclist, you have my sympathy and respect!

When I was fit enough to ride, I was mostly working too many hours to organise events and appreciated the efforts of those who put in HUGE efforts getting events together.

I hope most of us aren't mean-spirited, even if there are exceptions!