Author Topic: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat  (Read 10601 times)

tiermat

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Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« on: 22 May, 2014, 10:30:16 am »
We need to replace the heating thermostat in our house.  The current one was designed, I believe, by Methuselah, when he was a boy.  It is erratic, to say the least.

We had the boiler replaced about 4 years ago as it too must have been designed about the same time.  I do not recall why we didn't get the thermostat replaced at the same time.

I have looked at just going for a standard replacement, of which N&E, B&Q, Homebase etc have no end of models to choose from.

However, after a discussion at a BBQ a couple of weeks ago I am thinking of going for a smart, learning thermostat such as the Nest or the Hive.  Primary requirements are reliability, and can work on my network (which is a lot different to your common or garden home use network).  Extras like control via an app (we are a non-fruit based phone home) and learning are all gravy.

Does anybody have any experience of these?  Or even any suggestions outside of the mainstream?

FWIW I have looked at, and compared the two main contenders (Nest and Hive) and can't split the two.
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marcusjb

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #1 on: 22 May, 2014, 10:49:11 am »
Heatmiser - particularly the new Neo are pretty interesting, especially if you have more interesting setups such as underfloor etc.  We interface with masses of it, and it's good, reliable stuff and very cost effective.   

Nest is very good and powerful (I've only experience of the US version, not the new Euro version with the new remote mount box).  For the peanuts it costs, it's probably what I would use at home. 

No experience with Hive.
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Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #2 on: 22 May, 2014, 11:50:21 am »
Slightly off topic but.

We had our boiler replaced some three years ago then recently had no end of bother with the boiler not performing and timer issues. We found after trying 6 clocks that there was a bad batch on the go so changed makes and that issue was resolved. Long story in brief a new pump made a HUGE difference. Now, our system is providing heat to some 18 rads many of which have been upgraded over the last four years so the system had in reality got bigger, singles changed out for doubles.

We have this winter, admittedly  a mild one, been turning the boiler down and down and down. We await the next gas bill with some hope!

PH
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tiermat

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #3 on: 22 May, 2014, 11:56:50 am »
Slightly off topic but.

We had our boiler replaced some three years ago then recently had no end of bother with the boiler not performing and timer issues. We found after trying 6 clocks that there was a bad batch on the go so changed makes and that issue was resolved. Long story in brief a new pump made a HUGE difference. Now, our system is providing heat to some 18 rads many of which have been upgraded over the last four years so the system had in reality got bigger, singles changed out for doubles.

We have this winter, admittedly  a mild one, been turning the boiler down and down and down. We await the next gas bill with some hope!

PH

To be fair, the thermostat issue was present before we changed the boiler.

A recent (as in this time last year) replacement of all the the windows in the house (from 18mm units to 28mm) has made a big difference, but there are still times the heating should be on, but isn't, and vice versa!
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #4 on: 22 May, 2014, 12:00:30 pm »
For completely over the top fun:

Each room has a FHT80B controller / thermostat. Each radiator has a FHT8 valve controller. The boiler is controlled by a FHT8B switch. All use wireless radio comms to talk to each other.

Then for more excitement add a RasPi with a COC board to control it all using FHEM software. Mix in a bunch of one wire sensors to measure the temps of water, solar thermal, tank and boiler flow / return.

All controllable from any device via the web - I have it on my (Win8) phone and my iThing. Graphs of temperatures and valve openings for every room and every one wire sensor.

FHEM is written in PERL, so easily extendable and already has modules for just about every radio switch, sensor, T etc. you could think of.

Everyone thinks it is very cool I am a complete idiot.

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #5 on: 22 May, 2014, 12:02:26 pm »
For completely over the top fun:

Each room has a FHT80B controller / thermostat. Each radiator has a FHT8 valve controller. The boiler is controlled by a FHT8B switch. All use wireless radio comms to talk to each other.

Then for more excitement add a RasPi with a COC board to control it all using FHEM software. Mix in a bunch of one wire sensors to measure the temps of water, solar thermal, tank and boiler flow / return.

All controllable from any device via the web - I have it on my (Win8) phone and my iThing. Graphs of temperatures and valve openings for every room and every one wire sensor.

FHEM is written in PERL, so easily extendable and already has modules for just about every radio switch, sensor, T etc. you could think of.

Everyone thinks it is very cool I am a complete idiot.

If it was just me in the house, I would go down that route, unfortunately I need whatever system we put in to pass the Wife/Daughter Test.  I suspect yours wouldn't.  From what I have seen the Nest, Hive and Heatmiser will.
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #6 on: 22 May, 2014, 12:06:45 pm »
No experience with the commercial systems, because I've rolled my own (currently a twisty mess of PICs and LM35s, but the new Raspberry Pi-based alerting system will include 1-wire sensors for heating control - because if you're going to put a micro in every room, it would be silly not to).  A thermostat is just a switch, so is utterly trivial to integrate with your microcontroller of choice.

What I can say is that a bit of occupancy detection goes a long way, as does measuring the temperature in the spaces which you're actually inhabiting, rather than whatever makes sense to put a thermostat.  If the system knows when you're in bed (and when you're going to wake up) all the better.

I don't have individual control of radiators, but an occupancy-weighted average of the temperatures in various rooms is still far better than a timer can ever achieve.  And few things are as satisfying as being able to kick the heating into action from Mordor Central on your way home...

Back when I first rolled it out, it made a massive improvement in comfort level, and a measurable improvement in the gas bill.


ETA: Crosspost with Simon Galgut

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #7 on: 22 May, 2014, 12:26:39 pm »
If it was just me in the house, I would go down that route, unfortunately I need whatever system we put in to pass the Wife/Daughter Test.  I suspect yours wouldn't.  From what I have seen the Nest, Hive and Heatmiser will.

Actually, it is fairly idiot friendly. Each room can be switched up to 'daytime' temperature by the press of one button the wall stat, or can be set to the desired temperature by turning the big knob. Daughters have no problem with this or even browsing to http://raspberrypi:8086 and doing it from there. Wife is, of course, hopeless, but can call on help from offspring.

The complicated stuff and the one-wire stuff they have no interest in, but I love to see how much my thermal store is saving and whether the hot water is store direct or via boiler top-up etc. etc.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #8 on: 20 December, 2016, 03:04:52 pm »
I got a nest themostat in the deal they ran on black friday.

The bad
- the green leaf / energy report etc is just gamifying being cold. The essence of it is you win by progressively getting used to not using the heating above 16.5c. Nest - winning by wearing a coat and hat indoors. We're all in body warmers. I find myself putting on my down jacket, and emptying the dishwasher when the contents are drying, just for the warmth.

The good
- MrsMekon used to randomly turn the thermostat up to 22. I'd find myself shouting at the kids, basically because it was 9 o'clock at night and sweat was pissing out my armpits in Yorkshire in December. I now have IFTTT turn the heating back down to 19 whenever the heating hits 20.
-The Eco / Away stuff doubles as a check on if someone is home, and can trigger other stuff where before doing that was via phones, killing battery life.
-The IFTTT integration is fun.

robgul

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #9 on: 21 December, 2016, 08:22:40 am »
Our boiler was replaced in April 2016 (by British Gas who offered the best deal) and we had the Hive gadgetry added - excellent for controls and the thermostat seems to make the right decisions (siting is obviously critical - the house is only plumbed for only one heating circuit so control is a bit blunt)

Setting "holiday mode" and being able to control it all from anywhere in the world (e.g. being home later/earlier than expected) is great . . . and we have a couple of things on Hive sockets - one is an industrial type coffee machine that switches off at night . . . we used to have it on a simple time switch but the Hive gives more control (e.g. went to London the other Sunday so switched it to off mode before we left and then switched it back on from the train when we were about 45 mins from home.)

So far we seem to be saving on energy consumption and costs - partly a better boiler and significantly with better controls.

A couple of friends have Nest and are not impressed.

Rob

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #10 on: 21 December, 2016, 09:19:01 am »
I'm not sure how 'smart' heating controls help at all with different people wanting utterly different temperatures; I can identify with MrMekon!
I will happily stand on an ice-cold floor in bare feet (actually, I've been known to happily stand on ice in bare feet), where as MrsC gets cramp in her feet in seconds when standing on tiles . She wears insulated shoes indoors. She'd like underfloor heating, I think it was invented by Beelzebub as a hint of what hell would be like. 

It's not uncommon for me to sleep with no duvet covering me while she has a double thickness over her, and I wake up because I feel too hot. But checking skin temperature, I'm ice cold, she's boiling.

Individual controls on radiators sound like interesting idea, but they must play merry hell with the cycling of a combi boiler. They'd work ok with a non-combi-boiler.
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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #11 on: 21 December, 2016, 09:36:15 am »
Ive (almost accidentally) ended up with EQ3-Max! thermostats /system. This allows for a variety of solutions. In the bedroom I've got the time programmable thermostatic valve, but on the two living room radiators I've gone with a room timer/controller to drive the valves. I haven't attempted the EQ3-Max! Internet connected box for two reasons - mainly it's overkill for my situation, and a lot of the EQ3 instructions are badly/incompletely translated from the original German and I wasn't prepared to risk it!



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LEE

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #12 on: 21 December, 2016, 09:52:26 am »
It doesn't matter how much tech you throw at home temperature control, my Wife would continue to turn it between Min & Max, in a vain attempt to keep up with her being either too hot or too cold.... but seemingly never just right.

Any modern thermostat used in combination with thermostatic Radiator valves should get you what you want.
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Jaded

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #13 on: 21 December, 2016, 09:53:52 am »
We've got Hive, consumption went down a bit when I had it installed. Probably would have gone down more if I hadn't trained the family to accept 16c as a reasonable temperature a few years before. Different temperatures at different times on different days, rather then one temperature at different times is a plus. As well as the holiday and Boost. It the past Boost was switch on then forget until many hours later.

Added after LEE's post

The other great advantage of it is the other occupants of the house don't know how to use it.  ;D
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #14 on: 21 December, 2016, 11:05:02 am »
We've taken delivery of the Heat Genius system, just waiting for the installer. I saw the main advantage being that rooms can be individually controlled, on timer or using the learning system - the motion sensors record room usage, and will set the heating for the room based on that usage, accommodating variance by day as room usage will be different at weekends, etc. When working at home, it will give the option to heat just a single room rather than the whole house. Oh, and it has good features like switching off the radiator if the window is open, and it turns on later in warmer weather - if it needs to be at a certain temperature at 7am, the time the heating comes on to reach that target temperature will be later on a warmer day.

This system is only cost beneficial if you have multiple people in the house, and varying heating requirements. I've estimated my breakeven at 3 years. 

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Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #15 on: 21 December, 2016, 01:18:04 pm »
I'm not sure how 'smart' heating controls help at all with different people wanting utterly different temperatures; I can identify with MrMekon!

It doesn't matter how much tech you throw at home temperature control, my Wife would continue to turn it between Min & Max, in a vain attempt to keep up with her being either too hot or too cold.... but seemingly never just right.

The other great advantage of it is the other occupants of the house don't know how to use it.  ;D

This is one of those "it's easier for you because you're lesbians(sic)"[1] things, isn't it?  Barakta and I are usually within a jumper or so of thermal harmony, barring illness, poor circulation, or post-bike-ride frozen lard.   :smug:



[1] ©2002 Barakta's younger sister, in a fumbling attempt to express her dislike for the rigid gender roles she spends the majority of her emotional energy enforcing.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #16 on: 21 December, 2016, 02:16:46 pm »
I'm not sure how 'smart' heating controls help at all with different people wanting utterly different temperatures; I can identify with MrMekon!
This is one of those "it's easier for you because you're lesbians(sic)"[1] things, isn't it?  Barakta and I are usually within a jumper or so of thermal harmony, barring illness, poor circulation, or post-bike-ride frozen lard.   :smug:
[/quote]
I'm the only regular member of the household who likes camping, cold weather, being outside and doesn't habitually shut myself in a separate room from everyone else. Nothing to do with gender, sexuality, just I'm the weirdo (as far as the rest of them are concerned).
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Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #17 on: 21 December, 2016, 02:23:19 pm »
I was being tongue in cheek, but the trope of men not feeling the cold as much (and resulting thermostat wars) seems to have some basis in reality.

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #18 on: 21 December, 2016, 03:07:22 pm »

Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #19 on: 21 December, 2016, 04:52:29 pm »
A proper smart thermostat would lie about what it's set to...

Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #20 on: 22 December, 2016, 12:02:19 am »
Or in the alternative, simply install a placebo stat ...

(Strangely, my wife doesn't touch the wall stat at all, only the TRVs in the lounge. And she's not the sort of person who only believes the heating is on if the radiator is pumping out heat, so she'll turn it up a couple of notches if she's feeling cold rather than insisting it stays on max the whole time.)

robgul

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #21 on: 22 December, 2016, 08:03:22 am »
. . . the real answer here is delegate control of the thermostats/time switches to the energy bill payer  :thumbsup:

Rob

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #22 on: 22 December, 2016, 01:42:43 pm »
For completely over the top fun:

Each room has a FHT80B controller / thermostat. Each radiator has a FHT8 valve controller. The boiler is controlled by a FHT8B switch. All use wireless radio comms to talk to each other.

Then for more excitement add a RasPi with a COC board to control it all using FHEM software. Mix in a bunch of one wire sensors to measure the temps of water, solar thermal, tank and boiler flow / return.

All controllable from any device via the web - I have it on my (Win8) phone and my iThing. Graphs of temperatures and valve openings for every room and every one wire sensor.

FHEM is written in PERL, so easily extendable and already has modules for just about every radio switch, sensor, T etc. you could think of.

Everyone thinks it is very cool I am a complete idiot.


How open are these protocols? I'd like to set up a smart heating solution for the church as at present it is a dumb controller with no thermostatic action. Having it able to read from a calendar is a plus.

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rogerzilla

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #23 on: 27 December, 2016, 10:28:55 am »
I've had Hive for a couple of years.  It works OK; I don't use the geolocation thing to remind me to turn the heating on or off, since I leave it off by default and turning it on just before I leave work is a habit.  Water is on a timer for weekday evenings and twice a day at weekends.  If I get up on a weekday and need a shower (because I'm driving in rather than cycling) I just put the hot water on a 1 hour boost when I get out of bed, and it heats up while I'm having breakfast.  Life is simpler if you have a combi boiler, of course, but I like my airing cupboard.

The point is that you can allow for the time it takes for the house to warm up by turning the heating on half an hour (or whatever it takes) before you arrive home.  Likewise, you might as well turn it off an hour before you go to bed because it's going to stay warm enough.  I don't use heating on work mornings as I don't feel the cold for the first hour or two after getting up.

Hive is most useful if you live alone and arrive home at unpredictable times, or you're frequently away from home.  In those cases, a fixed heating schedule is going to waste an awful lot of gas.  I haven't been able to think of any real use for the "smart" light bulbs they sell yet...
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Kim

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Re: Nest/Hive/other IP enabled thermostat
« Reply #24 on: 27 December, 2016, 11:32:38 am »
I haven't been able to think of any real use for the "smart" light bulbs they sell yet...

For bodgy retrofits of lighting control to rented houses where you can't do it properly.  They're such a nasty solution that I'd only consider them worthwhile if you can't use the switches for disability reasons or something.