Bikeroutetoaster/waypoints/Etrex 20

[fhills]

Hi chaps

Bent Bikey has very kindly offered to talk me through some stuff on BikeRoutetoaster (BRT) but one specific question.

I'm maybe being really thick but I seem to be having trouble with coursepoints/waypoints.

I am using BRT with "autorouting" turned off as this just seemed to cause problems.

Following advice elsewhere on the web (I can dig out the page ref if anyone is intererested) I am using minimal BRT "coursepoints" just at junctions on the basis that I do not need any reassurance about my position between these points as I am actually on a tarmacced road and not likely to decide to climb over a hedge and head into fields. BRT's "coursepoints" I understand to be the same as Garmin's "waypoints" in that they can be labelled with names.

And again usng a hint from the above referrenced web page I am making thse short names unique and mean something, as in A01-L, meaning turn left. I have set the Etrex 20 up to show me on the map the name of the next coursepoint and the distance to it. I have the Etrex 20 switched to the option to link these coursepoints with straight lines on its map (ie there's no need for it to calculate following roads as I can do that for myself).

All of these coursepoints are by the way classed as "generic" on BRT's pull down labels for each point. And then I add the the name in the name field as detailed above.

To the point. I create the route in BRT, save it to BRT, then download it to my PC. Then I plug in the Etrex 20 by the USB lead and with it in mass storage mode copy it over to the main Etrex's memory in the location Garmin/gpx.

Switch on the garmin, I cannot find it under "routes" but eventually find out that it is there under "tracks". The route/track or whatever you want to call it (I understand that websites/manufacturers etc use these terms loosely at times) is displayed on the Etrex map perfectly but when I try to then GO and navigate the thing there appear to be no waypoints carried over.  At first the thing was navigating me via 2 waypoints that just happenned to be near this marked toute that I had created in the Etrex before  but these were of no use. As a test I deleted these two Etrex-created waypoints and after starting on the route navigation again the Etrex then told me to go to the "end point" 4m away.

Anyone got any clues?

I have tried this using both Explorer and Firefox as the browser but the results seem the same - no waypoints.
 

[frankly frankie]

Well I haven't used BRT and I await replies with interest, but I'll just offer this -
as you've discovered, a 'Course' is a type of Track.  As such, I would suggest Coursepoints are going to be Trackpoints and not Waypoints.  That's why you can't see them on the E20.

Sorry that didn't help much! 

[edit to add -
I think the E20/30 doesn't recognise 'Courses' as such - they are specific to the Edge-type Garmins and are distinguished by being TCX files (I think?) - however you may still be able to use a Course-oriented Planner provided it allows you to download the results in a way the GPS can use, ie a Route(s) or a Track(s) contained in a GPX file(s).  Downloading as a Route or Track would probably convert your Coursepoints to named Waypoints.

The E20/30 'Where To?' menu is a bit too clever for its own good, it will only show 'Routes' and/or 'Tracks' if these are actually available.  If they aren't available, you'd never know these options even exist.  On that basis, I suppose it could have an option for 'Courses' (because I've never loaded one, so I wouldn't know) - but somehow I doubt it.
Certainly, you want to be following one or the other, using 'Where To' to just go to a Waypoint is definitely the option of last resort.

[fhills]

Thanks for your reply franklyfrankie.

I maybe didn't make it clear. I saved what i imagined to be a route as a gpx file. I then put this in the Etrex's favoured place for gpx files.

From the bikeroutetoasters help:

   " Track Point - A basic point that simply marks a position on the map.
    Course Point - A point that contains additional information such as which way to turn at a junction."

and using it it seems to be so - ask for a Track Point and you get a dot on the map. Ask for a Course Point and you are invited to label it with a name/directions.

So I'm puzzled. Of course it would help if Garmin provided a decent manual in the first place (even the PDF has large gaps) and, as they always told us at school in exams, "define your terms fhills".

So, still puzzled. Any help welcome.

[fhills]

Well progress, but no real idea why.

I find Basecamp a bit of a pig to use so I downloaded Garmin "Training Centre" software, though I have the impression that this is mainly meant for the more training orientated Garmins.

Went back into BRT where I had saved my route (a good feature of it is that you can store routes or whatever there for quick loading into the map) and then exported it as a tcx file - don't ask me why I did - just thought I'd try it.

I then loaded this up into "Training Centre" where to my suprise I could see all those coded "waypoints" A01-L etc.

I then (again don't ask me why) exported this to my PC as a gpx file and then passed this over to the Etrex. Where everthing then appeared. Odd (to me) but it seems to work.

One thing I'd like to sort if possible - for some reason the name of the next point in the little data box seems too small for the space available and I don't imagine will be too easy to read on the bike, even though I had deliberately (as advised) kept the names short. But the other data boxes, fed with data from the Etrex rather than my typing in are bigger and far more visible.
If anyone can help with this, please let me know.

But I seem to be getting there.

[Somnolent]

The older Etrex models share this same irritation -  even with Trip Computer set to display "Big Numbers" so that just three data fields are visible, the waypoint name, however short, displays in small characters.

[fhills]

Thanks for thatPpPete - bad news but at least it will save me hunting around the Etrex's poorly documented system to try to sort it.

I did think of trying to put the type in bold or something in a txt editor but of course you can't do format changes.

If anyone knows of a workaround, do let me know. You'd think Garmin could sort this with a software update.

If you have a similar device, do you have any suggestions for clearly noting the nature of the "next point" turns?

I've been using, as suggested somewhere, labels like A01-L to keep the points unique and also indicate the nature of the turn but of course as detailed above the type is somewhat small.

[Manotea]

The older Etrex models share this same irritation -  even with Trip Computer set to display "Big Numbers" so that just three data fields are visible, the waypoint name, however short, displays in small characters.

See Settings~Map~Text (Vista, Legend (H)Cx

[frankly frankie]

No I think there's nothing you can do to improve the data fields on the E20/30 - I agree they are far too small, totally unneccessary.

On the old models, provided you limited the number of characters to 6 or fewer, you got a decent size of text:

With 7 or 8 characters the font is a smaller but still useful size, and hits the tiny minimum size with 9 chars or more.

On the new models it doesn't vary -
here is an example with 6 characters - this is about the same as the smallest size on the old model, certainly too small for me to read, and I don't find the font smoothing helpful either.

[fhills]

Thanks frankly frankie

Yes, that's exactly the problem.

Crazy.

I haven't actually used the thing on the bike yet as I need to fix it to a certain bike, so it remains to be seen whether I can see it or not - though I know I'll have to at least raise my glasses over the nose. I suspect I won't.

Pity as that way of numbering waypoints seemed to address the need to keep waypoints unique while using the minimum number of waypoints on a trip and giving you all the info you needed.

If anyone thinks of any workarounds by all means let us know.

A real pity as, terrible documentation apart (but then we've got the nice folks on here) I'm really happy with the E20 - got me walking through a dark wood last night - very impressive 

[fhills]

Spoke to Garmin tech support about this "waypoint text size" in the data field issue.

They confirmed that that was it - nothing to do.

I asked if this could be sorted with a software update/rewrite - the chap didn't hold out too much hope but suggested that it might be an idea to post views on the Garmin forum.

[frankly frankie]

If anyone thinks of any workarounds by all means let us know.

Well with some workflows my E30 exhibits the 'Waypoint Name Bug' more or less as described here.

If you get this behaviour (ie the 'name' data field actually displays the 'Comment' not the 'Name') then you can use it to your advantage. 
Comment fields don't have to be unique.  So you can get something like this (NB, Dakota screenshots):
   
which even with the smaller font can be more readable.

[Somnolent]

The older Etrex models share this same irritation -  even with Trip Computer set to display "Big Numbers" so that just three data fields are visible, the waypoint name, however short, displays in small characters.

See Settings~Map~Text (Vista, Legend (H)Cx

I've already got it set to Large - but still a touch small for my eyes.

Well with some workflows my E30 exhibits the 'Waypoint Name Bug' more or less as described here.

If you get this behaviour (ie the 'name' data field actually displays the 'Comment' not the 'Name') then you can use it to your advantage. 
Comment fields don't have to be unique.  So you can get something like this (NB, Dakota screenshots):
   
which even with the smaller font can be more readable.

FF - can you get display like this
  on E30 as well as on Dakota?
Looks like that gives a font that would be big enough for me - and might just be enough to persuade me on to the newer generation from the Legend HCx

Meanwhile - your idea of using < and > symbols along with "L" & "R" might be useful to increase readability.

___________________
Edit
> and < symbols work on Mapsource, but dont transfer across to the Legend 

[frankly frankie]

Yes to the font size.  Again its dependent on not using too many chars in the waypoint name (or comment, in the above screenshot).  Though you can go up to 10 or so, and still get a good font size in this mode.  What you're seeing there is the 'Guidance text' which is an option in map setup.  I would like it a lot if it didn't use compass directions all the time - eg SW in the above example, instead of (I would prefer here) SO.

No to the combined Compass/Map page.  The E30 doesn't seem to offer this, maybe because the screen dimensions are smaller than most other models.

[edit to add - Actual E30 example:

(obviously, used like this, the 'Next' data field could be altered to something more interesting as the 'next' name always shows in the guidance text. Or you could lose the data fields but I like to keep the 'distance to next' display.)