Core strength

[Sergeant Pluck]

In addition to the benefits mentioned above, strengthening the muscles that surround the spine helps to support and reduce strain on the intervertebral discs. If you have existing or potential lumbar disc problems this is important and it has, so far, been very helpful for me.

I've tried the "cycle lots" method: no amount of cycling strengthens the back muscles in the way that my gym work does. Cycling only uses a small proportion of the many muscles involved in supporting the spine.

[toontra]

In addition to the benefits mentioned above, strengthening the muscles that surround the spine helps to support and reduce strain on the intervertebral discs. If you have existing or potential lumbar disc problems this is important and it has, so far, been very helpful for me.

I've tried the "cycle lots" method: no amount of cycling strengthens the back muscles in the way that my gym work does. Cycling only uses a small proportion of the many muscles involved in supporting the spine.

Exactly.  The theory seems very straight forward and intuitive, as well as actually working in practice for me.

A question for Bent Mickey?  I'm finding it hard to understand why you have so little time for core strength work - have you ever tried a core strength exercise regime?  On what basis you you have such a low opinion of it?

[Wendy]

Toontra, I don't have anything against core strength programmes.  In this specific case, they don't meet with Liz's stated goals, which is why I'm arguing against them.

No it wont. Cycling, specifically, will underuse the core muscles used to support your spine, putting more strain on the back muscles and spine. It will, in the long run, make your body as a whole weaker, increasing recovery time and risk of injury.
From skating, due to a lot of lateral movements, you most likely don't have that issue.

I have to disagree, I think your view is wrong.  It might be correct if you were trying to rely on cycling to build core strength for skating, for example, but that's not the case here.

[toontra]

Toontra, I don't have anything against core strength programmes.  In this specific case, they don't meet with Liz's stated goals, which is why I'm arguing against them.

In your opinion!  I would disagree, and I'm in the majority here it would seem, and these are people who've actually tried it and it's worked for them.  By the way, you didn't answer my question - have you tried core strength training yourself?  Also, have you cycled 150 miles a day for 6 days on the trot?

In this specific case I think Liz, or anyone, would benefit.  I understand you are a skating instructor - are you sure this isn't professional rivalry on your part?

[Wendy]

Yes, I have tried core strength training, and I'm glad to see there is a little balance from others on my point of view, so it's not as one sided as you might like to make out.  I also think the last part of your post is perhaps beneath your usual good nature.

[Sergeant Pluck]

As I mentioned above, I do think the value of core strength training depends to some extent on your starting point. I'd hazard a guess that for many people that starting point is such that it would help avoid problems and improve general posture and overall well-being. BM, I suspect that your fitness level and overall condition including core strength are considerably better than average.

The answer as to whether such training will itself make Liz go faster is no. But I think it could help her immensely during the other cycling specific training that would enable that.

To put it another way: could Liz achieve what she wants without core strength training? Quite possibly. But the risk of derailment due to injury and problems due to lack of training of non-cycling muscles would be much greater.

IMO.

[toontra]

I also think the last part of your post is perhaps beneath your usual good nature.

It wasn't intended to be offensive BM - apologies if it appeared so.  I'm just struggling to understand your antipathy for something as benign as pilates which has proven so useful for many in the specific discipline of long-distance cycling.

[Rich753]

Sorry Mikey if you think this is becoming personal - there's obviously a bunch of core-zealots out there (me included) that really don't understand your antipathy.  So, apologies.

But to return to Liz's original question !

Firstly restating the requirement - to become significantly faster riding, and be able to maintain that level of performance over distances longer than previoulsy ridden (ie 1000 miles in 6 days or whatever).  And to achieve this in time for the good weather in the spring

IMHO you would be very unlikely to achieve that performance increase by just riding your bike, it needs a solid strength training program, and that has to be supplemented by a core training. One without the other is unwise.

So, couple of  weeks getting used to weights in the gym, then 2/3 sessions a week of big weights/low reps,  "whole body" exercises like squats, lunges, pull-ups (or lat pull downs), cleans etc, and 2-3 core sessions, where you can do a lot of work in 15 mins.

That's my plan for the New Year anyway 

[inc]

But to return to Liz's original question !

Firstly restating the requirement - to become significantly faster riding, and be able to maintain that level of performance over distances longer than previoulsy ridden (ie 1000 miles in 6 days or whatever).  And to achieve this in time for the good weather in the spring

IMHO you would be very unlikely to achieve that performance increase by just riding your bike, it needs a solid strength training program, and that has to be supplemented by a core training. One without the other is unwise.

So, couple of  weeks getting used to weights in the gym, then 2/3 sessions a week of big weights/low reps,  "whole body" exercises like squats, lunges, pull-ups (or lat pull downs), cleans etc, and 2-3 core sessions, where you can do a lot of work in 15 mins.

Training is like diet and weight loss, there are many experts with some new trendy ideas with accompanying   book and DVD. So now we have core training, which just seems to coincide with the growth in gyms. Just to comment on what you have written above. Cycling is primarily an endurance activity which requires training of the cardiovascular system, the Op has 12 weeks or so to make any improvement and you recommend spending the first two weeks weight training and also suggesting some usable strength can be gained in a 15 min session ( not possible)  how will this help the OP achieve their objective. A tailored training plan will be bike or turbo based, this will bring about any strength requirements in ALL the muscles used to perform this activity, but more importantly the improvements in fueling those working muscles. Others have mentioned back problems, this will be almost certainly down to position and or overtraining, which is too much load,  either intensity or duration, for their level of fitness, .When you start increasing load it is always the weakest point where the problems occur usual the back or knees but also often the neck wrists or shoulders. Training is about specificity and measured progression that is the same for any sport. I have training diaries going back to 1980 and  can see what has worked or not over the years, I have done a lot of gym and weights work and can say for me it has had no measurable effect on my cycling performance.

[dehomag]

Do I need to improve my core strength to get faster,

No. Embark on an interval training program on the bike and/or hang on the the back wheels of faster riders for as long as you can and learn how to suffer.

[Rich753]

Sorry Inc, you just don't get it.

No amount of cardiovascular work will make you go faster - it will help you go longer, but not faster.

To go faster you need to be stronger.  You can achieve that by hanging on to faster wheels/interval training etc but the quickest way to get stronger is a tailored weight-lifting program.

And if your weights/gym efforts haven't paid dividends then I would respectfully suggest your prgrams havebeen either badly designed or badly executed (or both).

 

[Sergeant Pluck]

Others have mentioned back problems, this will be almost certainly down to position and or overtraining, which is too much load,  either intensity or duration, for their level of fitness.

Not in my case. I've back woes for many years, and I had had surgery before I returned to cycling 5 years ago or so. Wear and tear and a lot of ill-advised heavy lifting in the past.

Position: agreed. I took me quite a long time to get right - but I am sure Liz has that one cracked long ago.

I agree, obviously, that progressive structured training on the bike would be the mainstay of the programme - but what some posters are just not getting is that that will be a lot less prone to disruption and will progress faster if some time is spent on the muscles supporting the spine and all the muscles involved in posture etc.

Re gyms: aside from the one I go to now, no gym I've ever attended (i.e. the big-name chains and the local authority gym) has effectively addressed core strength. They seemed to be all about aiming for aesthetic improvements.

Is Liz reading any of this? 

[Julian]

I'm reading; I'm just too intimidated by all this training stuff to comment! 

I'm reading and absorbing.  This is a really fascinating discussion for someone like me who has never really thought about it before.

[annie]

I believe that core strength should be included in any fitness regime.  It is often the bits that cannot be seen that are ignored, yet are crucial to the rest of our bodies.

We all pick up bad habits in terms of posture, walking etc and often compensate for weaknesses, injuries or pain, these can all lead to further problems.

Core strength training alone will not make you go faster but it will encourage a better posture and a stronger starting position.  Let it be something that you do gradually and aim to improve in the longer term. 

Surely comfort is the number one factor here.  It doesn't matter how fast one is, if discomfort causes pain then speed is surely irrelevant?

[Rich753]

I'm reading; I'm just too intimidated by all this training stuff to comment! 

I'm reading and absorbing.  This is a really fascinating discussion for someone like me who has never really thought about it before.

That's great- if it's helpful to have all us self-opinionated so-&-so's sounding of, pleased to be of assistance   

I think it's a great thread, too, some good opinions and useful links too.

All the best for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

[inc]

Sorry Inc, you just don't get it.

No amount of cardiovascular work will make you go faster - it will help you go longer, but not faster.

To go faster you need to be stronger.  You can achieve that by hanging on to faster wheels/interval training etc but the quickest way to get stronger is a tailored weight-lifting program.

And if your weights/gym efforts haven't paid dividends then I would respectfully suggest your prgrams havebeen either badly designed or badly executed (or both).

Please, don't be sorry for me,    but it would help if you read what I am saying.  A structured  bike based training plan will develop both cardiovascular and muscular aspects of improvement at a rate for maximum gains. The two systems need to be matched, there is no point being stronger if your cardiovascular system can't supply it with fuel.

Do you understand what happens to muscle when you train with weights, you may get stronger ie you can lift more weight but it is not going to help with cycling speed or endurance you may be able to sprint faster but that is not much use on a 1000 mile multi day event.

Suggesting hanging on to faster wheels to make you faster is an unlikely outcome, most probability you will be training at a level too high and delay the required adaption. It is not structured or tailored for the individual.

When I was doing weights ( a while ago)  it was a programme for cycling developed by a friend who was also a national coach who I trained with.

The plain truth is training to go faster requires a lot of motivation, more than most people have, it can be boring sitting on a turbo in your garage ( AC/DC helps) or going out for three hours on your own in crap weather  but the Peter Keen ( architect of our current  national success) developed system works for anyone, is free, and is individual.

Being in a nice cosy gym with all those fit lycra clad people     or sitting in your garage on a turbo  , tough call, one will make you a fitter faster cyclist, we just disagree which one.

[MSeries]

erm, shouldn;t this trhead be in "Further and Faster " by the way. To inc. I guess I was lucky then, following faster wheels DID make me faster.

[inc]

To inc. I guess I was lucky then, following faster wheels DID make me faster.

The thread is about Liz wanting to go from 20kph to 20 mph and asked would core training help. All my post have had that in mind. If following wheels made you faster great but I doubt you were riding at 20kph when you started following wheels and there is no knowing how much faster you may had gone with a structured plan.

[annie]

Personalized Triathlon Training Online - [tri-eCoach]

An interesting article.

and also

Pain-Free Cycling, at the Core

[Jakob]

Will core training on it's own make Liz faster - No.
Can Liz get faster by just cycling more - Yes.
Will core training enable Liz to train more & harder - Yes.

[MSeries]

 

To inc. I guess I was lucky then, following faster wheels DID make me faster.

The thread is about Liz wanting to go from 20kph to 20 mph and asked would core training help. All my post have had that in mind. If following wheels made you faster great but I doubt you were riding at 20kph when you started following wheels and there is no knowing how much faster you may had gone with a structured plan.

The question was more specific. It was "Do I need to improve my core strength to get faster".  If we want to be pedantic we could I suppose believ that my core strength improved by cycling alone or something else and not by doing specific exercises on it. I don't know. (I do ride up hills in a large gear with no hands sometimes) I got faster without doing core strength exercises.  Let me add that I am not saying that training core strength is a waste of time, far from it, I now do it on a Swiss Ball two or three times a week along with leg and upper body exercises. I was answering the very focussed question from my own experience.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Well, looks like we've done core strength 

I'd like to have a proper go at improving my speed and endurance next year. Any good web sources regarding progressive training programmes on the bike?

[Rich753]

I think Inc mentioned a Program from Peter Keen that is free and available - would be good to have a pointer to that?

And further to Inc's points - I don't disagree at all that a structured training program with turbo training etc could make you faster, I'm just suggesting that a structured weights program is likely to give faster results.  Here's my thinking:

Assumption is that Liz's CV systems is reasonably well-tuned, lots of long rides etc, so I'm assuming that fuel supply to the muscles won't be an issue (this will change later), and so the initial emphasis should be on getting stronger.

And getting stronger isn't about just sprinting faster - if your top speed is 22 mph then riding at 20mph will feel very stressful, if your top speed is 25mph then 20mph will feel a lot more comfortable.

So periodise your training - couple of weeks to get used to handling weights (expect to be stiff) 10-12 weeks of high intensive weights paralleled with general bike riding, transition to a more bike-based training regime as the weather gets better/nights are lighter with ridng up hills in high gears etc etc,

I think this regime is a) more likely to be followed (yep, gyms can be full of attractive fit people) and b) will give more bang for the buck in timevs results.

And yes, core stability training is vital.

Make sense?  Useful?

[mattc]

Sorry Inc, you just don't get it.

No amount of cardiovascular work will make you go faster - it will help you go longer, but not faster.

To go faster you need to be stronger.

Do they have gears on the bikes where you live?

[inc]

Just Google for Peter Keen there are a few useful links, this one caught my eye
High Performance Interval Training | Association of British Cycling Coaches
the second paragraph Specific Muscle Fibre Actions makes interesting reading and explains what I have been trying to ( unsuccessfully) explain.