Different leg lengths: short cranks, shims, that sort of thing...

[Kim]

Have the new cranks maybe changed this?  Square taper <-> pedal width varies between cranks; I had a pretty big increase in width after changing mine before I realised and fixed it with a shorter BB.

My thoughts exactly.  Will have a measuring session and find out.

Can you try and fiddle the boom out a bit further?

Yeah, I'll play with that when I get some proper 'bent-riding weather.  I don't really want to take it out when there's salty slush about, as it's just had a nice new chain and is generally a bugger to clean.

You've probably tried this already and I've forgotten, but have you explored fiddling cleat angle to try more heel in/outward angles?

I've been experimenting with cleat positions on the other bike.  I put them back to the original position to see what difference, if any, the short cranks would make.  So far it seems that having the cleats further forward, and with the left cleat further forward than the right, is helpful.

I've played with angles in the past, and know that my right knee wants to be pretty much straight on otherwise the *other* knee problem manifests (in fact, my main reason for using clipless pedals is that it stops me from twisting the heel inwards, which b0rks the front of my knee in short order).  Physiotherapist agrees that this is the Right Thing.


Since things are consistently worse on the 'bent, I think my best approach at this point is trying to determine what's different there.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Sorry about the delay Kim. The longer cleat bolts are in an envelope on the dining room table. I'll post when back in England at the end of the week.

[pumpkin]

As mentioned in an earlier post, a visit to eg Cadence Sport might help or a chat with Cyclefit in London (this may be expensive). You are trying to guess the solution on your own whereas an observer with biometric knowledge may see a number of contributory factors. From the posts I've read unequal length legs, knee pains, cleat issues,hip angles etc. Cyclefit use video analysis that does work and also work with a Physio but there is no magic bullet. Cadence Sport may use a Mk.1 eyeball but I've only heard +ve reports. If it gets you back on the road then it's money well spent.

[Kim]

Are such places going to have a clue about recumbents, though?  I'm wary of spending lots of money to be teeth-sucked at for not riding a proper road bike.

Thanks to robgul of this parish I now have a turbo trainer to play with, which should make it a lot easier to experiment with positioning, though have a small matter of norovirus to contend with first

[Feline]

Are such places going to have a clue about recumbents, though?  I'm wary of spending lots of money to be teeth-sucked at for not riding a proper road bike.

Thanks to robgul of this parish I now have a turbo trainer to play with, which should make it a lot easier to experiment with positioning, though have a small matter of norovirus to contend with first

Have you started to show symptoms yet? It's probably worth using an alcohol hand gel and going round disinfecting door handles, phones, loo seats etc etc if you haven't actually got it yet. GL!

[pumpkin]

Are such places going to have a clue about recumbents, though?  I'm wary of spending lots of money to be teeth-sucked at for not riding a proper road bike.

Thanks to robgul of this parish I now have a turbo trainer to play with, which should make it a lot easier to experiment with positioning, though have a small matter of norovirus to contend with first

Poss. phone them up/email and chat with them but trying to self-diagnose is v.difficult as one solution may throw up a problem somewhere else. just as your body compensates for one side being weaker than the other. Have a look at the two websites for the people I mentioned and as I remember,Longstaff Cycles were known to be good at the unequal crank things, providing solutions for people who had different leg lengths etc.

[Kim]

Finally starting to feel better from the norovirus, I expended what remained of today's energy with an hour of jibbly tedium with the 'bent on the turbo trainer.

I can solidly conclude that putting my leg down at junctions/lights isn't a factor.  That's more significant than it sounds.

I've also been able to demonstrate that my seating position changes dramatically after I've been riding for a while - basically, what feels reassuring bum-wise while stopped is not the natural position for prolonged riding: after a few minutes I tend to settle down/forward in the seat somewhat for a more comfortable spine position.  Setting up for optimal leg extension needs to be done with this in mind.  To that end, I extended the boom by several mm, with reasonably positive results.

Played about with cleats some more, but I'm reserving judgement till I come back to it tomorrow with a fresh knee.

The trainer does make this sort of thing a lot easier, thoguh.  It also means you can do things like grope around to work out where your pelvis is (seems to be straight and still wrt the seat, so leg length difference must be being taken up in the knee/ankle) and what your glutes are doing (very little, it seems).

[Feline]

A bent on a turbotrainer?? 
I didn't even know that were possible!

[tom_e]

A bent on a turbotrainer?? 

Does sound cool.  Can you just like lay back and close your eyes?  Do the legs stop straight away and give the game away when you fall asleep?  Hmmmm

[Kim]

Thing about recumbents, is that while they look weird, they're usually about 80% normal bike (in a hodgepodge of road and mountain components sort of way).  There's nothing particularly weird about the rear triangle, so it's just a 26" wheeled bike as far as the trainer's concerned.

Would be slightly less silly if the bike wasn't fully suspended, of course, but I've dialled the preload up to 11 and it only really bounces if I pedal unevenly (HPVelotechnik know a thing or two about non-bouncy suspension anyway).

[Kim]

Does sound cool.  Can you just like lay back and close your eyes?

I've been doing just that, though the lack of a head-rest on the seat is an issue.  For serious reasons, though - it occurred to me that my pedalling technique might be being affected by being able to see what my legs were doing (eg. I was subconsciously trying to make my knees symmetrical WRT the bottom bracket when they wanted not to be, or something).  Lying back and concentrating on making the sound from the turbo as steady as possible does seem to lead to smoother pedalling.

Another thing I've been doing is experimenting with pedalling by pulling back and up rather than forward and down.  This seems to bring the underdeveloped glutes into play, which can only be a good thing.  I did about an hour of that last night without any knee/ITB issues at all (though lots of aches in exciting new muscles), which is interesting.

[tom_e]

Interesting.  My recumbent results came on greatly when I focussed on trying to keep steady torque throughout the pedal cycle.  Particularly uphills.

I spent a little time concentrating on each area of the cycle, things like pulling back and up, but then forward and drop with no power, like you say.  And several weeks when I tried to commute avoiding any main 'thrust' pushing at all and just get all my motive power from the other phases.  Partly training technique, and partly a few new muscles needed building up too I think.

Also found I had to deliberately practice higher power sprints like this too, or I tended to revert to shoving hard when I needed to pull out quick and didn't have time to think.

[Kim]

I'm wondering if, leg length issues aside, the main difference between the 'bent and the upright is that it's much more conducive to shoving hard.  I don't really do the honking out of the saddle thing, as it tends to result in rapidly exceeding the capability of my lungs (with hideously asthmatic consequences) so I tend to sit and spin on an upright.  There's a limit to how hard you can push when doing that without resorting to pulling up on the bars, which is much more obvious than pushing back against the seat on a 'bent.

I think I've got the cleat adjustment for leg length mostly sussed - it's quite apparent when it's wrong by feeling the movement of my hip bones WRT the seat - so I think I'll stick with working on pedalling technique for a bit and see how it goes.  The trainer is hideously dull, but does make this sort of thing a lot easier, as there aren't distractions like hills and traffic to complicate matters with unwanted power demands.

[barakta]

I also makes the house shake alarmingly at some gearings and cadences.

I guess I'd better go down and keep her company rather than making unhelpful comments about Kim on the Internet

[Kim]

Okay, tried a pair of 20mm pedal axle extenders today.  Hour and a half on the trainer with pretty much zero knee/ITB/lower leg pain, though some muscular aches in quaddy glutey places.  And it felt like I was flailing around all over the place.

Interesting.

I also note that the Q-factor on the Dawes is significantly *wider* (looks like something of the order of 20mm, though I haven't tried to measure it precisely) than on the SMGT, which would be consistent with this.

It can't be that simple, can it?  

[Feline]

  I hope so!

[CrinklyLion]

A nice, simple, 'why didn't I think of that before' solution would be good