Author Topic: Anyone else stupid enough to smoke, but lucky enough to of swiched to e-cigs?  (Read 20170 times)

The elephant in the room is that these are drug delivery systems for use in social settings. Today its nicotine, tomorrow, it's... take your pick. I'm amazed they're being rolled out with barely a whisper "because of the health benefits".Jesus Wept.

You can draw a straight line from these gadgets to the Penfield Mood Organ and Wireheads. Rest assured somebody's going to be taking profit, and power from these.

So the world is going to hell and we're all going to die. No change there, then. Sorry, I came over all "Amish" for a moment...

Are we banning cups (coffee) glasses and bottles (alcohol) as well)?


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
*shrug*

I've been using drug delivery systems in social settings for decades.  Often as a direct consequence of having to share the space with smokers.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
The elephant in the room is that these are drug delivery systems for use in social settings. Today its nicotine, tomorrow, it's... take your pick. I'm amazed they're being rolled out with barely a whisper "because of the health benefits".Jesus Wept.

You can draw a straight line from these gadgets to the Penfield Mood Organ and Wireheads. Rest assured somebody's going to be taking profit, and power from these.

So the world is going to hell and we're all going to die. No change there, then. Sorry, I came over all "Amish" for a moment...

Are we banning cups (coffee) glasses and bottles (alcohol) as well)?
Difference is that this is not like coffee, wine or beer, but neat caffeine or alcohol. In many ways more like the so-far still theoretical drunkenness pill than an alcoholic drink or even a conventional cigarette. As has been said, if you're using it to cut down or give up tobacco, then it's a positive move, but if not, it's an additional "drug delivery system" (and one which seems to cut round existing regulations) rather than a less harmful alternative.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
  • The Madcap!
Few links and a quote.

I dont have the BRANE POWAH to follow uo all the stuff I've read over the last year or so but there have been MANY detailed studies on E-cigs and stuff like 2nd hand Vapour. 
M<any Vapers, myself included, have cut down the amount of nicotine in the liquids we use and the absorption is a lot less than in a cigarette.
It's a bit like those cyclist types that still want to use the roads, they feel they Need them, when they could just use the cyclepaths and not have to worry about the dangers on the roads. Or those that still spend lots of money on expensive bikes and kit when they could just as well pedal a £80-00 bike in a box from Asda. It's just an addiction and when there are kids starving an expensive bike is taking the food from their mouths, WHO'LL THINK ABOUT THE KIDS O:-)




http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fda-note-study-shows-e-154000616.html



Also."Dr. Michael Siegel has been working for decades to get patients off tobacco smoking — and seems puzzled that agencies like the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention and the ALA are trying their hardest to throw up roadblocks to possible quitters.

Siegel said:

“True we don’t know the long-term health effect of e-cigarettes, but there’s a very good likelihood that smokers are going to get lung cancer if they don’t quit smoking. If they can switch to these and quit smoking traditional cigarettes, why condemn them?… It’s ironic the very thing that makes them so effective… drives the anti-smoking groups crazy. But what makes them so effective is it mimics the physical behaviors smokers have, which is something the patch can’t do.”

Do you think electronic cigarettes should be limited simply because they resemble smoking? Or should e-cig users be free to choose vaping as an alternative to smoking despite the discomfort of non-users?"


http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/10/1/19


http://acsh.org/2013/09/ground-breaking-study-supports-e-cigarettes-superiority-over-nicotine-patches/
You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
  • The Madcap!
tHIS IS A BIT MORE REALISTICALLY Presented.

compounds analyzed.”

Does e-cigarette consumption cause passive vaping?

Schripp, T., et al.

Published in Indoor Air, 2013

 

 

Worthy of note is that the initial tests in an 8m3 chamber did not show any of the expected chemicals from vapour, suggesting that the vapour is not sustained in the air, and is dispersed and settles out quickly, limiting exposure. They also detected formaldehyde, but stated:

“This might be caused by the person in the chamber itself, because people are known to exhale formaldehyde in low amounts and the increase was already observed during the conditioning phase, furthermore the release of formaldehyde was below the limit of detection in the small scale [10 litre] experiments”.

 

The level observed during cigarette smoking stands in stark contrast to this, as indicated in this graph:

 
 

Given that formaldehyde is a ubiquitous airborne chemical, it suggests that emission of formaldehyde from the use of an electronic cigarette was not of a level to cause additional risk. Indeed, the results from the 8m3 show very few chemicals at detectable levels, and all of those chemicals have no risks associated with them at low concentrations, with the possible exception of isoprene (which is also generated in breath; in fact, it the most significant hydrocarbon in exhaled breath). Isoprene levels were 8 µg/m3 for the participant blank, and fell to below that for the first two e-cigarette tests, before rising to 10 µg/m3 for the third test.

 

No estimate of error margin was given, but these results are not suggestive of isoprene generation by e-cigarettes at significant levels. The value for cigarettes smoke was 135 µg/m3. Given the lack of results in a standard size room (8m3), the claim that “'passive vaping' must be expected from the consumption of e-cigarettes” does not seem to be well supported by the results. Indeed, the data would seem to demonstrate exactly the opposite.

 
Results from a much smaller 10 litre chamber did show more results (again, mainly harmless) and this is not a volume representative of passive vaping since even the smallest conceivable shared space is necessarily larger than this. (People do not cohabit saucepans.). Unfortunately, they did not run the smoke tests in the 10 litre chamber, so direct comparisons on this extremely small volume cannot be made.

 

Characterization of chemicals released to the environment by electronic cigarette use (ClearStream-AIR project): is passive vaping a reality?

Romagna, G., et al

Abstract presented at SRNT meeting, Helsinki, 2012

 

 

“…this preliminary assessment indicates that passive vaping impact, when compared to the traditional cigarette smoking, is so low that it is just detectable, and it does not have the toxic and carcinogenic characteristics of cigarette smoking. The absence of combustion and the lack of sidestream smoking, with its known toxic effects [2,6] are probably the main reasons for the differences observed in air pollution characteristics between e-cigarettes and tobacco smoking.

 

On the base of the obtained results and on ARPA data about urban pollution, we can conclude by saying that could be more unhealthy to breathe air in big cities compared to staying in the same room with someone who is vaping.



You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

clarion

  • Tyke
Are any of those papers peer reviewed?

Is there information on the funding of the research?
Getting there...

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
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There are a lot of peer reviewed studies.Konstanstina Farsalinos in Greece is doing a lot of them and has been taken seriously by many authorities and single issue groups.  Gubbinsment and Big Pharma are looking at huge losses, and the expense of many people living longer, all will have effect on Tax, and profits so we cant be having that can we!
You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

Toady

It's a tricky one to form an opinion on.  If they're used to replace tobacco as a means of nicotine delivery that's clearly a good thing for the individuals concerned.  But theoretically they could act as a gateway for backsliding in ex-smokers (which is why I would never touch them, even out of curiosity) or possibly as a recruiting sergeant for new addicts.  Some people are concerned that because they look like fags they act as a form of cigarette advertising, or that they rehabilitate smoking in some way.

I think I have a solution.  Legislation should be passed to ensure that they are utterly uncool.  For example, make them look like bog brushes, or dead mice.  Or perhaps embed tinny speakers in them and have them play a blast of Barry Manilow every time you take a drag.  They would retain the tobacco replacement properties to help people away from tobacco, but lose the attractive properties to lure people towards it.

I can't imagine - and wouldn't wish for - circumstances where I'd drink alcohol again, but if you were to present me with a cast iron guarantee that I was immune to the harmful effects of tobacco, I'd be down the tobacconists like a shot.  I'd accept a smoker's cough, but no worse.

urban_biker

  • " . . .we all ended up here and like lads in the back of a Nova we sort of egged each other on...."
  • Known in the real world as Dave
Quote
I can't imagine - and wouldn't wish for - circumstances where I'd drink alcohol again, but if you were to present me with a cast iron guarantee that I was immune to the harmful effects of tobacco, I'd be down the tobacconists like a shot.  I'd accept a smoker's cough, but no worse.

I totally get this. As an ex smoker there's something very alluring about guilt free nicotine use. Nicotine (especially for the addicted) delivers a very nice comforting psychological effect, while still leaving your brain functional (unlike alcohol).

Maybe some of the pushback against vaping is from ex-smokers worried they are going to end up addicted again. I know that I have to be very careful never to try it. It was hard enough to quit smoking, even knowing it was likely to kill me.

Now when are they bringing out a THC vaper? ( I just googled - looks like they are already available)
Owner of a languishing Langster

Toady

I totally get this. As an ex smoker there's something very alluring about guilt free nicotine use.
Isn't there just.    There was a chap on the radio 5 this morning (or was it yesterday) saying just this:  that he'd given up for a long time, then tried these vape things, and ended up back on the fags.  I wouldn't touch them for this reason, but I applaud anyone like the OP who has used them to get their tobacco intake down.

Hi

I'm new to the forum, but I came across this post and am quite shocked by some of the replies I have read!!

I have used PV's (not e-cigs) for nearly two years and the health benefits I have noticed are truly amazing.

E-cigs are not a gateway to cigarette's, I do not know of one non-smoker who has ever even wanted to try one, they are there because patches, gum, Champix, hypnotherapy and counselling do not work (I have tried them all, and failed many times)

PV's are there for the many who have turned to the NHS prescribed drugs (which have a success rate of just 5%) and failed.

After using my first PV (after a 40 a day 25 year habit) I never picked up another cigarette again.

Yes, I am addicted to nicotine (no more harmful than caffeine) but I am no longer addicted to the hundreds of nasty chemicals in a tobacco cigarette!

red marley

Perhaps you could expand on what you find shocking about some of the responses.

I think it is worth remembering that e-cigarettes are not healthy. It's the stopping tobacco smoking that's the healthy bit. I'd believe the claims of the manufacturers that they provide a means for smokers to wean themselves off cigarettes if they weren't so vehemently opposed to regulation as a medicine (as for patches, gums etc.). The fact that increasing numbers of e-cigarette brands are being designed to look like their tobacco counterparts and with advertising to match suggests they at least wish to blur the boundaries as much as possible between the e- and tobacco versions. And that works both ways.

It seems incredible to me that a new, known physically addictive product is being advertised so openly. Putting the ads on bus stops, billboards and busses means certainly that kids are being targeted. They are now available in my local newsagent on the counter top along with all the other impulse buy stuff. Waving them under kids noses, saying "over 18s only" is pretty cynical.

E cigarettes are not aimed at children, TBH I would rather my 17 year old son used one rather than smoking tobacco

Sadly, they are not cool enough for kids (ask them)

Flavours are not aimed at children either, I could not carry on vaping tobacco flavours as they taste nothing like tobacco, therefore I choose to use Vanilla Custard, my partner uses Absinth flavoured juice (all made by me so we know exactly what's in it)

They are not used for marijuana either, it would not work as the herb would ruin the atomiser (the bit that heats the liquid)

There is too much bad press about e cigarette's,  the sheeple will follow the bad but think nothing of the good that is coming of them (less pressure on the NHS through lower smoking related diseases)

As said already, I do not know of one non smoker who has thought "today I will try an e cig"  Why would they? they do not smoke *shrugs*

I do not use them as an excuse to smoke in restricted places such as restaurants etc etc, that would be wrong, I still go out side at work and in the pubs.

I do not insure myself as a non smoker as I still use nicotine, all I miss out on are the horrible chemicals such as rat poison and arsenic that are used to make tobacco cigarette's.

I am still a smoker, I just choose to do it in a healthier way  :thumbsup: 

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
E-cigs are sexier than sex itself (as are most things, we'd be led to believe).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/E0CazRHB0so&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/E0CazRHB0so&rel=1</a>
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Tell us about your bike, dan.
It is simpler than it looks.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
As said already, I do not know of one non smoker who has thought "today I will try an e cig"  Why would they? they do not smoke *shrugs*

While I broadly agree with you, the corollary to this is that I don't know of one smoker who hasn't, as a non-smoker, thought "today I will try a cigarette".

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Over the last 30 years smoking has been marginalised and made socially unacceptable. This is a fantastic result for public health, on a par with providing clean water supplies, and other great advances.

Smoking is a body damaging drug addiction, and breaking the addition to nicotine has been the key in the reduction in smoking.

E-cigs potentially make addiction to nicotine socially acceptable again, blurring the stigma attached to it and if uncontrolled, reversing the great public health advance. They should be a prescription item, used as treatment for addicts that have not responded to other forms of treatment.

I'd imagine that the greatest proponents of e-cigs, by far, are those that stand to gain financially from them.
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Yes x a thousand to that. Some smokers will switch to them as a less harmful way of getting their nicotine fix - the couple I know who've done this do admit that they are still addicted. But the industry behind them isn't about that anymore, if it ever was.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Yes x a thousand to that. Some smokers will switch to them as a less harmful way of getting their nicotine fix - the couple I know who've done this do admit that they are still addicted. But the industry behind them isn't about that anymore, if it ever was.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. E-cigarettes aren't intended as treatment for nicotine addiction, they're designed to reduce the harms of that addiction. Efforts to reduce smoking rates have largely stalled in recent years, so sustaining nicotine addiction with a vastly reduced risk of cancer and heart disease is a massive win. I think it's strange to suggest that e-cigarettes might re-popularise combustible cigarettes in any meaningful way - the invention of the motorcar didn't lead to a boom in horse sales. Research indicates that the use of e-cigarettes by non-smokers is negligible.

As regards the industry, it has until recently been led largely by small companies owned and operated by e-cigarette users. The tobacco industry is (for obvious reasons) investing heavily in e-cigarettes, but they're slightly late to the party. Innovation has been primarily driven by e-cigarette users themselves, with home-made prototypes shared on internet forums becoming mass-produced products. The image of a powerful and manipulative industry simply doesn't correspond to reality.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
The motorcar undeniably led to a boom in road transport.
Where smokers switch to e-cigarettes in order to reduce harm to themselves and others, that's great. Where they do it in order not to give up or to convince themselves it's now harmless, that's not good (see unleaded petrol or even low-tar cigarettes in the '80s). Where smokers who wouldn't smoke in various places because it's now illegal and/or they are aware it harms others, now feel it's ok to e-smoke in those places, that's bad - not only for those others but probably also for them by increasing their nicotine intake. I don't think anyone's saying they act as a gateway to tobacco cigarettes, the problem is they are in part a replacement (mostly good, with caveats as above) and an addition (bad). They are without doubt a cheap drug.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
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I disagree Cudzo'. "To Convince themselves it's harmless is bad"? Why is it bad when it is as near as dammit harmless?
Most people don't vape in places where it would make others uncomfortable, there is no "2nd hand smoke" to harm people and the odour is a/. minimal and b/. disappears after a few seconds. They are more an Alternative than a replacement. Many people use them as well as a lower level of smoking, dual fuel, and it seems to be only lack of knowledge that scares people into thinking it is bad.
You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

Pedaldog.

  • Heedlessly impulsive, reckless, rash.
  • The Madcap!
Tell us about your bike, dan.

Dan is not so much a cyclist as a Bloke that occasionally rides a BSO. He found this topic as I mentioned it in another place and appreciated his support in saying things better than I can.
You touch my Coffee and I'll slap you so hard, even Google won't be able to find you!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
I disagree Cudzo'. "To Convince themselves it's harmless is bad"? Why is it bad when it is as near as dammit harmless?
The harm is reduced, not completely done away with. And at the end of the day, you're still addicted.
Quote
Most people don't vape in places where it would make others uncomfortable, there is no "2nd hand smoke" to harm people and the odour is a/. minimal and b/. disappears after a few seconds.
If people are only vaping in places where they'd otherwise smoke tobacco, then fine. Even an improvement for everyone (bearing in mind that improvement here = less bad rather than more good - but still, less bad is better than more bad!)
Quote
They are more an Alternative than a replacement. Many people use them as well as a lower level of smoking, dual fuel, and it seems to be only lack of knowledge that scares people into thinking it is bad.
If they are an alternative but not a replacement they must be an extra! Lack of knowledge seems to be an all-round thing - someone upthread mentioned WHO research which has not been done.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Charlotte

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In an age where well-funded front organizations working for big money corporates employ offices full of astroturfers equipped with sophisticated persona management software, I tend to treat enthusiastic posts advocating things like e-cigarettes with all the suspicion that they deserve.
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urban_biker

  • " . . .we all ended up here and like lads in the back of a Nova we sort of egged each other on...."
  • Known in the real world as Dave
I disagree Cudzo'. "To Convince themselves it's harmless is bad"? Why is it bad when it is as near as dammit harmless?


This is just incorrect. What evidence us there that it is "as near as dammit harmless"? The best we can say is that its unlikely to be as bad for you as bad as smoking tobacco.

It impossible to judge one way or the other whether it is harmful or harmless until specific studies are done. And that will take years.
Owner of a languishing Langster