Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 12:38:46 pm

Title: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 12:38:46 pm
Apologies if this belongs elsewhere but...

I've been looking for a hi viz tabard that has something suitably subtle on the back reminding approaching drivers that I'd appreciate it if they gave me a bit of room.

I don't like the POLITE stuff and most of the nice looking equestrian stuff looks like it would be either a wind drag or too hot and sweaty over a 200 km ride

So, has anyone seen anything?  Or anyone aware of a supplier who does nice tabards that can be customised with a text like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE"

Thoughts?

Liam
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: BlackSheep on 11 September, 2017, 01:22:01 pm
Apologies if this belongs elsewhere but...

I've been looking for a hi viz tabard that has something suitably subtle on the back reminding approaching drivers that I'd appreciate it if they gave me a bit of room.

I don't like the POLITE stuff and most of the nice looking equestrian stuff looks like it would be either a wind drag or too hot and sweaty over a 200 km ride

So, has anyone seen anything?  Or anyone aware of a supplier who does nice tabards that can be customised with a text like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE"

Thoughts?

Liam

Being purely objective.

High viz jackets already have "legal" standards attached to them so they're giving an indication to others that the wearer is there. Putting something that can only be recognised  at a much closer distance might not be effective. To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 01:34:09 pm
To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

I think you need to define the primary objective.  Mostly it's designed to make you visible in headlights from a long way off.  This makes sense if you're working on a railway, as it gives the train driver more time to slow down.  The evidence that this actually provides a safety benefit for cyclists is somewhat lacking, and I suspect the optical benefit is negligible if you've already got decent lights.

A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important.  Passive-aggressive slogans like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE" aren't likely to work any better than standard optical-visibility hi-vis.

The other problem is that while close passes are scary, most cyclists are hit from the front/side at junctions.  Any text on your back isn't going to help there.  If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.


[1] To avoid falling foul of the law against impersonating a police officer.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 01:35:44 pm
I assume you mean don't write in 12 point...or make it War and Peace

...which means you'd want to keep the word count down as much as possible. 

My challenge is that people know I'm there, but some people think I'd like it if they got really close.  I don't want to sound narky and cyclyarsy I just want them to get a polite and friendly reminder to swing wide. 

Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 01:37:49 pm

The other problem is that while close passes are scary


Which is the point of the post
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 01:38:05 pm
My challenge is that people know I'm there, but some people think I'd like it if they got really close.  I don't want to sound narky and cyclyarsy I just want them to get a polite and friendly reminder to swing wide.

People who don't give a fuck aren't suddenly going to give a fuck because your jacket's being polite.

Maybe if it said "BABY ON BOARD" it might help.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 01:38:34 pm

The other problem is that while close passes are scary


Which is the point of the post

If you really want to avoid close passes, ride a tricycle.  That actually works.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Veloman on 11 September, 2017, 01:41:45 pm
Get one with a big camera picture on the back which might suggest motorist is being filmed.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Redlight on 11 September, 2017, 01:42:06 pm
"OFF DUTY"?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: yoav on 11 September, 2017, 01:53:31 pm
Kim, would that be a regular or hi-viz gorilla suit?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Ian H on 11 September, 2017, 01:57:23 pm
The risk is that all the individual solutions to visibility simply end up causing visual confusion.

Within certain parameters, the best way I have found of reducing close passes is by riding further out.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: alwyn on 11 September, 2017, 02:02:58 pm
Gotta agree with IanH. If I think there's a risk of enabling or tempting a close pass, I take the primary position and force the issue.

99.99% of the time people get it and wait nicely. Sometimes you get the odd beep, but so what?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: jsabine on 11 September, 2017, 02:08:48 pm
A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important. 
[...]
If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.

Difference between visibility and conspicuity, or something.

Within certain parameters, the best way I have found of reducing close passes is by riding further out.

Indeed. My (London) rule of thumb has always been that you'll get given about 1.5x as much room as you give the kerb - ride six inches out and you'll be brushed past with a whole nine inches to spare, while a more reasonable four foot gap isn't enough to induce apoplexy in car drivers but still leads to six feet of space as they pass (well, mostly).

Probably also worth reprising David Martin's Theory of BIG (http://www.tibsnjoan.co.uk/Big.html).
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 11 September, 2017, 02:13:51 pm
I agree with the primary position, and riding two abreast as a group (as endorsed by Chris Boardman and British Cycling). I was getting close passes on the roads with nothing coming towards us, which baffles me, unless the drivers don't realise how close they are, or they're just lazy steerers.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 September, 2017, 02:25:39 pm
The widest passes IME are at night. Riding Wiltshire lanes at 2 a.m. everyone goes right on to the other side of the road. I surmise this is probably because of the lack of traffic coupled with headlights showing up round corners long before actual vehicles do, leads drivers to "know" there is nothing oncoming. Perhaps there's also a WTF factor; as in, "WTF is he doing out on a bike at this time? Must be a right nutter!" Especially if it's not even a weekend...

How you translate that to daytime, I don't know. Possibly visibility/conspicuity is or can be a factor, as I also recall some of the closest passes coming when in tree shade on otherwise sunny roads.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 11 September, 2017, 02:42:01 pm
I believe in being 'seen' and I will be getting a Proviz jacket for winter, aswell as the Proviz ruchsack ....

I also have the 'Polite Think Bike Jacket.... I've had this jacket for 2 years but have only used it twice.... it is very effective

I also have a cygolite hotshot rear light

I commute 6 days a week and cycle approx 300km per week .... I hate the dark

and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fKqy9iDkf0k/TiT0u-D8FDI/AAAAAAAAA80/0ERb1tODfbk/s1600/image_084_vendorbees.jpg)

Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: grams on 11 September, 2017, 02:45:38 pm
Bright lights that are on 24/7 are my solution, since it makes you look like a real vehicle or even a motorbike. Very easy to do if you have dynamo lights.

(As a driver I don't think flashing or deliberately blinding lights are a good idea, since they're harder to judge the direction and speed of. Also, many drivers associate flashing lights with joggers and slow-moving cyclists)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: grams on 11 September, 2017, 02:46:17 pm
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

Now stand those people up against green countryside foliage.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 11 September, 2017, 02:48:46 pm
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

Now stand those people up against green countryside foliage.

thats why hi viz orange is regarded as more effective for cycling in the countryside .... yellow for the city

Proviz now makes the jackets in various colours ....not cheap though:

https://www.provizsports.com/en-gb/cycling/cycling-jackets (https://www.provizsports.com/en-gb/cycling/cycling-jackets)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: BlackSheep on 11 September, 2017, 02:52:47 pm
To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

I think you need to define the primary objective.  Mostly it's designed to make you visible in headlights from a long way off.  This makes sense if you're working on a railway, as it gives the train driver more time to slow down.  The evidence that this actually provides a safety benefit for cyclists is somewhat lacking, and I suspect the optical benefit is negligible if you've already got decent lights.

A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important.  Passive-aggressive slogans like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE" aren't likely to work any better than standard optical-visibility hi-vis.

The other problem is that while close passes are scary, most cyclists are hit from the front/side at junctions.  Any text on your back isn't going to help there.  If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.


[1] To avoid falling foul of the law against impersonating a police officer.

Hi viz jackets can be spotted at distances of (say) a mile away. The reflective strips are very effective. At that distance i doubt you are going to be able to read anything, however ypu habe noticed a bright object.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Karla on 11 September, 2017, 03:10:04 pm
In Walker (he of women's wing fame) did a study with those POLITE jackets. They made not a jot of difference to passing distance, whereas an actual police jacket made a huge difference.  The lesson: people can see you perfectly well, it's whether they give a fuck that causes you problems
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 03:11:23 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

In open countryside and Central London it's normally OK but out here on the edge of London in Herts/Bucks it can get a bit hairy, especially around rush hours even if one is riding in primary.  My thought was that, rather than cursing under my breath and wondering if the next nutter would have me off, I could add a message to my hi viz that reminded them not to come so close.

It makes sense to keep the message short and BIG but does anyone sell such a thing?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 03:12:28 pm
In Walker (he of women's wing fame) did a study with those POLITE jackets. They made not a jot of difference to passing distance, whereas an actual police jacket made a huge difference.  The lesson: people can see you perfectly well, it's whether they give a fuck that causes you problems

Perhaps the issue is also partly about making the rider feel more confident?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Karla on 11 September, 2017, 03:18:48 pm
What's the point in being more confident if neither the danger nor other people's behaviour have changed? Surely either your original (fearful) assessment of conditions was correct, in which case the jacket is a placebo that is inducing you to rash behaviour where you take unwarranted risks, or else conditions have always been acceptable, you don't need the jacket and the problem you need to fix is in your head's inaccurate perception of danger.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: zigzag on 11 September, 2017, 03:19:17 pm
my logic suggests that it is not a good idea to have stuff written on the back for the drivers to read. firstly, there is not enough space to make it readable (only one big letter would be visible if it's printed on the lower half of the vest/gillet). secondly, if the driver tries to read what's written on your back he/she may drive in to you - similar phenomenon when people drive into roadside objects on deserted roads as they keep looking at them. imo, yacf jersey arrows on rear pockets are a good solution (for the uk) as it reminds a common road sign. another image that could work well is a big horizontal right arrow with "1.5m" printed on it.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 11 September, 2017, 03:20:09 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

In open countryside and Central London it's normally OK but out here on the edge of London in Herts/Bucks it can get a bit hairy, especially around rush hours even if one is riding in primary.  My thought was that, rather than cursing under my breath and wondering if the next nutter would have me off, I could add a message to my hi viz that reminded them not to come so close.

It makes sense to keep the message short and BIG but does anyone sell such a thing?

add a camera on your helmet and have a jacket saying: You are being filmed or 'Smile .... You are on Camera' or similar

I use a cycliq fly 6 and Garmin Virb camera (on some rides), and I can say that when I have the camera mounted on my helmet, drivers are very polite
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 03:27:30 pm
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fKqy9iDkf0k/TiT0u-D8FDI/AAAAAAAAA80/0ERb1tODfbk/s1600/image_084_vendorbees.jpg)

Hi viz jackets can be spotted at distances of (say) a mile away. The reflective strips are very effective. At that distance i doubt you are going to be able to read anything, however ypu habe noticed a bright object.

I don't think anybody is disputing this.  The optical properties of hi-vis are proven.  That's why the railways use it.

But being a) seen  and  b) respected  on a bike isn't usually about optics, it's about psychology.  It's no good being spotted from a mile away at night if a driver still thinks passing you with 6 inches clearance is a reasonable thing to do.  It's no good standing out from the background on an urban roundabout when a driver is only looking for cars.

This is probably why there's no demonstrable correlation between use of hi-vis and cyclist RTCs.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 03:30:54 pm
What's the point in being more confident if neither the danger nor other people's behaviour have changed?

More confident riders position themselves more assertively in the road, which *does* make a difference?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: grams on 11 September, 2017, 03:40:40 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

The comment above about riding further out is probably the best you can achieve. If nothing else, it means you can pull inwards a bit when someone does close pass you.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 03:41:56 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

Put a garden fork/golf umbrella/battleaxe across your rear rack.

Seriously, try it.  Drivers are brilliant at spotting things that might damage their car.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: hellymedic on 11 September, 2017, 03:43:51 pm
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

Now stand those people up against green countryside foliage.

Or a police minibus.
Effective camouflage: only those pink heads look even vaguely human.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGYrwrMWsAA7lub.jpg:large)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: hellymedic on 11 September, 2017, 03:45:00 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

Put a garden fork/golf umbrella/battleaxe across your rear rack.

Seriously, try it.  Drivers are brilliant at spotting things that might damage their car.

+1
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Ian H on 11 September, 2017, 04:08:41 pm
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

In open countryside and Central London it's normally OK but out here on the edge of London in Herts/Bucks it can get a bit hairy, especially around rush hours even if one is riding in primary.  My thought was that, rather than cursing under my breath and wondering if the next nutter would have me off, I could add a message to my hi viz that reminded them not to come so close.

It makes sense to keep the message short and BIG but does anyone sell such a thing?

Semi-urban rat-runs are often the worst in terms of motorist behaviour.

The only thing I think might possibly work is a largish camera icon on your back.  Personally, I wouldn't bother.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 September, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
I think you need to define the primary objective.  Mostly it's designed to make you visible in headlights from a long way off.

That's 'reflective' surely.  'High viz' is more about being seen in daylight.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Greenbank on 11 September, 2017, 04:24:15 pm
Hi-Vis is one/both retro-reflectives and fluorescent colours.

The former are nigh on useless during the day.
The latter are nigh on useless at night.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: JohnL on 11 September, 2017, 04:40:59 pm
Slightly OT but those 'POLITE' jackets that horsey folk wear baffle me. Police horses are trained to deal with sudden and loud noises. I'd probably give a police horse less room if I'm passing it than a potentially skittish 'civvy' horse.

John
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Tillapaw on 11 September, 2017, 05:26:16 pm
I think riding so that cars can't overtake until there is no oncoming traffic is the only way to get some space, otherwise too many people try to sneak through without going over the centerline.  I was too close to the curb on an A-road a couple weeks back and had loads of close passes, once I moved away from the kerb a foot and the close passes stopped.  Luckily it was a short section of A-road.

This product might do what you want and is significantly lighter than a battleaxe, though less fun: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wave-120970-M-Wave-Safety-Flagpole/dp/B003LHO6S6/ref=pd_sim_200_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CEB4MQV10YVJ8TXHWN9Q
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 September, 2017, 05:38:31 pm
Hi-Vis is one/both retro-reflectives and fluorescent colours.

The former are nigh on useless during the day.
The latter are nigh on useless at night.

In that case it's unclear which the OP is looking for.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 September, 2017, 05:50:34 pm
Thanks everyone for their comments and for taking the time to chip in.

I find, after 30 odd years on a bike in London and country, that drivers do see me OK day and night and, like most riders, I do generally ride assertively on busy roads. However, on many roads, a cyclist riding in primary will not stop all close passes even if they are forcing cars to cross the centre line to overtake.

I don't want to be an a**e to other road users as I've seen the negative impact that can have (so that rules out for me POLITE jackets, assertions about reading the Highway code or pictures of cameras); I just think that reminding motorists to give cyclists space somehow will reduce some of the unpleasant experiences I have had recently and could be a way of reducing the fear that many cyclists have about riding near traffic on roads.

And I'd like to do it in a suitably stylish way without using an industrial-sized windbreak.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: jsabine on 11 September, 2017, 06:19:15 pm
And I'd like to do it in a suitably stylish way without using an industrial-sized windbreak.

I think the product you seek can be found on aisle 11 3/4, next to the lunar support sticks and beneath the unicorn tears.

Mind you, I quite like redlight's Off Duty suggestion - suitably enigmatic.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 September, 2017, 08:36:09 pm
Ian Walker has done very interesting research on this and it has shown that there is one thing which he has proven to work, and it's not hi-viz with messages, it's a blonde wig.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 11 September, 2017, 09:02:57 pm
Ian Walker has done very interesting research on this and it has shown that there is one thing which he has proven to work, and it's not hi-viz with messages, it's a blonde wig.

LOL ... a blonde wig with my hairy fat legs and I will be tasting tarmac  ;D

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57e27ffdff7c5014aeff47a4/t/58353d9ee6f2e1fa62af48d7/1479884193377/transvestite+on+bike.jpg?format=750w)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Karla on 11 September, 2017, 09:12:12 pm
If you don't like people close-passing you, you don't have time to give them polite-yet-pedantic lectures about how wouldn't they mind awfully if they could just be a good sport and move just a teensy little bit over to the right, if they would be so much obliged?   If you don't like being pushy, don't try to influence car drivers from the saddle of a bike!
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Tull924 on 11 September, 2017, 10:29:20 pm
something suitably subtle on the back reminding approaching drivers that I'd appreciate it if they gave me a bit of room.
Got to be one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bicycle-safety-Lollipop-reflector-handlebar/dp/B00C7645H4

Just fitted one to my hack bike :)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Pingu on 11 September, 2017, 10:35:22 pm
Most people are wearing magic hats, after they're all wearing magic vests what next?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 11 September, 2017, 11:04:11 pm
Most people are wearing magic hats, after they're all wearing magic vests what next?

Magic trousers, Gromit!
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Planet X Paul on 12 September, 2017, 12:03:49 am
I bought a Proviz Switch gillet last Winter, mainly for dark evening solo training rides and Winter Audax rides, particularly if I'm likely to be on main roads for any time.  The first time I wore it was on a 'main roads' audax in December.  Wore it with flouro yellow during the day, then reversed it to the reflective side at dusk.  I'm sure that it must have been very visible to motorists as it was really noticeable that cars gave me a very wide berth when passing.  One thing though, it's not very breathable and you get a lot of condensation inside the gillet.  I'd imagine a full jacket would be even more so.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 12 September, 2017, 12:15:46 am
From my experience of people wearing it on night rides, the Proviz stuff is so effective it could be that they were giving you a wide berth to avoid being dazzled by it!
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Salvatore on 12 September, 2017, 08:19:04 am
From my experience of people wearing it on night rides, the Proviz stuff is so effective it could be that they were giving you a wide berth to avoid being dazzled by it!

That isn't as far-fetched as it might sound if you've never seen it. I was overtaken by someone wearing Proviz on the descent of Yad Moss last month and I've since bought a gillet. Mind you, when everyone is wearing one we'll be as invisible as ever. 
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: T42 on 12 September, 2017, 09:24:49 am
+1. When I'm driving at night I often have to dip my lights for road-signs.  I shall put some Proviz on my Christmas list.

Re putting text on gilets, IMO anything more complex that a 4-letter word won't be read, and then only out of the corner of the driver's eye as the car hurtles past.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: MikeFromLFE on 12 September, 2017, 09:29:38 am
Chevrons on your back. As seen on YACF jerseys?
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Greenbank on 12 September, 2017, 09:39:43 am
Whilst googling for something else I came across this:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CYCLIST-Reflective-Waistcoat-Jacket-Visibility/dp/B01DH16T26

(It's a generic yellow hi-vis tabard but it has "DEAF CYCLIST" in large letters on the back.)

My hearing is thankfully perfectly good, but that's one message that may have a more positive effect on motorists than others (such as POLITE).

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).

(The thing I was trying to google was a link to a report of some research about driver / hi-viz object association; can't find it now...)

[EDIT] DEAF hi-vis tabards in a range of colours: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deaf-Printed-Hi-Vis-Vest-Waistcoat/dp/B00P1ITUV6?th=1
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Rod Marton on 12 September, 2017, 10:55:47 am

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).


For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 12 September, 2017, 12:34:42 pm
From my experience of people wearing it on night rides, the Proviz stuff is so effective it could be that they were giving you a wide berth to avoid being dazzled by it!

That isn't as far-fetched as it might sound if you've never seen it.

It's particularly obnoxious if your light source is very close to the axis of your eyes.  Head torches need to be turned right down in the vicinity of them, and I discovered that with the higher bottom bracket on the Red Baron, riding a short distance behind someone in Provis gives much the same effect.

I've not seen one from inside a car yet.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 12 September, 2017, 12:42:58 pm
For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.

For me, 'yellow' is just the word for 'light green', though I agree about orange being poor contrast against foliage.  (The railways can get away with it, because they *know* their drivers aren't colourblind).

Practically, whatever colour you pick will be poor contrast against some background.  My colourblind perspective on what makes you visible is not to get hung up on particular colours, but to concentrate on being a recognisable human shape rather than wearing complicated patterns that effectively act as camouflage, even if they're brightly coloured.


Though IMHO this sort of thing is more relevant to being spotted by rescue helicopters than inattentive motorists.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 September, 2017, 12:54:10 pm
Railways use orange rather than yellow because it contrasts with the grey/brown of ballast and it's sufficiently different from any railway signal aspect.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 12 September, 2017, 01:03:55 pm
I tend to go for pink when I want visibility: my favourite gilet's a pink and navy striped Rapha one, which seems pretty good. That said, I see the Proviz stuff now comes in purple so I may well invest...
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 12 September, 2017, 01:11:28 pm
Railways use orange rather than yellow because it contrasts with the grey/brown of ballast

Surely yellow, being brighter, contrasts more?


Quote
and it's sufficiently different from any railway signal aspect.

That makes more sense.  In as much as people being able to tell what colour tiny things in the distance are ever makes sense.  Witchcraft, I tell you!
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 12 September, 2017, 01:32:02 pm
When I worked for Northants Council, we used orange hi-viz for the kids and instructors, when most private firms use yellow.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: 3peaker on 12 September, 2017, 02:28:18 pm
When I worked for Northants Council, we used orange hi-viz for the kids and instructors, when most private firms use yellow.

My Gloucestershire CC Bikeability 'Issue Tabard' is Orange upper 1/2, Yellow lower 1/2. Black Letters INSTRUCTOR in the upper half 4cm x 25cm band. This tabard would be worn in the company of students wearing yellow.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: tom_e on 12 September, 2017, 02:31:25 pm
I tend to go for pink when I want visibility: my favourite gilet's a pink and navy striped Rapha one, which seems pretty good. That said, I see the Proviz stuff now comes in purple so I may well invest...

Just out of interest, does the pink seem to work for getting any more consideration?  Seeing as there was that study with the false long hair which IIRC had a positive effect.  Just pondering.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 12 September, 2017, 03:46:07 pm
When I worked for Northants Council, we used orange hi-viz for the kids and instructors, when most private firms use yellow.

My Gloucestershire CC Bikeability 'Issue Tabard' is Orange upper 1/2, Yellow lower 1/2. Black Letters INSTRUCTOR in the upper half 4cm x 25cm band. This tabard would be worn in the company of students wearing yellow.
Some of us got those Respro orange/yellow pocketed and zipped vests, which we preferred to the orange "road safety officer" ones. Bikeability was privatised, along with many NCC departments. I still wear my Respro when instructing, which isn't much now (even wore it on a few Audaxes). I don't always wear hi-viz on the road, but light coloured jerseys. Vehicles still come in all colours, and I get fed up of drivers going on about cyclists not wearing hi-viz in daytime as well as night.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 September, 2017, 04:37:52 pm
Just out of interest, does the pink seem to work for getting any more consideration?  Seeing as there was that study with the false long hair which IIRC had a positive effect.  Just pondering.

If you ask someone who has not been knocked off, you might get a biased result! 
#magicjackets
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 12 September, 2017, 10:32:36 pm

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).


For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.

Yikes ....

I'd be very nervous if I'm on a bicycle and I knew that an elderly person in their 70's who is 'colour blind' n was driving on a busy fast road  and was heading towards me ....

 is this legal? (being allowed to drive if you are colour blind?)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 12 September, 2017, 10:55:12 pm
is this legal? (being allowed to drive if you are colour blind?)

Yes, perfectly legal.  In practice the only thing that's really affected is traffic lights[1], and not in the way that people with normal colour vision assume[2].  Spotting vulnerable road users in $generic_poo_colour clothing is a basic driving skill, even if you're not colourblind, because sometimes it is actually generic poo colour.

Train drivers and pilots and so on have tougher colour vision requirements, because they have to be able to discriminate coloured signal lights at a distance.


I'm not sure what being elderly has to do with it?  Most colour vision deficiency is congenital.  If a person suffers from, say, macular degeneration, then the loss of central vision is a far more serious issue and they rightly shouldn't be driving.


[1] Okay, cats eyes road studs on the motorway are colour-coded, but if you need the colours to tell what the lanes are, you're doing it wrong.
[2] The issue tends to be one of recognising that a distant light at night is a traffic signal, rather than some other random luminaire.  Telling the state of a known traffic light once you're close enough for it to matter isn't a problem, as the colours are chosen to minimise ambiguity, and it can be done by shape if necessary.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: frankly frankie on 12 September, 2017, 11:08:30 pm
I'd be very nervous if I'm on a bicycle and I knew that an elderly person in their 70's who is 'colour blind' n was driving on a busy fast road  and was heading towards me ....
 is this legal? (being allowed to drive if you are colour blind?)

(or elderly?)

(the answer's the same)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Karla on 13 September, 2017, 10:02:11 am

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).


For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.

Yikes ....

I'd be very nervous if I'm on a bicycle and I knew that an elderly person in their 70's who is 'colour blind' n was driving on a busy fast road  and was heading towards me ....

 is this legal? (being allowed to drive if you are colour blind?)

How about you try educating yourself before putting 'scare quotes' around it? 
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: rr on 13 September, 2017, 01:11:31 pm
Railways use orange rather than yellow because it contrasts with the grey/brown of ballast

Surely yellow, being brighter, contrasts more?


Quote
and it's sufficiently different from any railway signal aspect.

That makes more sense.  In as much as people being able to tell what colour tiny things in the distance are ever makes sense.  Witchcraft, I tell you!
I thought that the orange was so it shows up under sodium lights.
The other advantage is that it does not attract insects to the same extent, I have been on rural construction sites where no one can bare to wear a yellow hivis.

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 13 September, 2017, 03:03:05 pm

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).


For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.

Yikes ....

I'd be very nervous if I'm on a bicycle and I knew that an elderly person in their 70's who is 'colour blind' n was driving on a busy fast road  and was heading towards me ....

 is this legal? (being allowed to drive if you are colour blind?)

How about you try educating yourself before putting 'scare quotes' around it?

to be honest, I never knew that people who are colour blind are allowed to drive  :-[

there's lots of things that seem wrong to me as regards driving .... these are just some of my thoughts:

1. people who are on medication such as anti depressants etc should not be allowed to drive

2. People who suffer from illnesses such as Dementia etc should not be allowed to drive

3. People who have anger issues should not be allowed to drive (people who need anger management/counselling)

4. People over the age of 60 should be forced to do a driving test on a regular basis (most of my near passes have been from older people)

5. on a side note....politicians etc and people who make decisions that affect masses should be drink and drug tested on a regular basis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsPbtPjGfI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsPbtPjGfI)

but Hey .... thats just me  :P
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Karla on 13 September, 2017, 04:21:28 pm
Why wouldn't we be allowed to drive?  Or do you just hold these sorts of prejudices on no evidence, like "People called dim shouldn't be allowed to use a computer"?  I mean, you do know what colourblindness *is*, right?

...

...

... no, thought not.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: phil d on 13 September, 2017, 04:51:53 pm
I guess there's a reason dim chose that user name.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 September, 2017, 05:17:53 pm
Everyone is colour blind to a greater or lesser extent in dim light

Dogs have a limited colour spectrum compared to the majority of people and are pretty good at spotting moving objects.

Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: mattc on 13 September, 2017, 08:22:23 pm
By the way, I had become so tired of people referring to colours like turquoise and mauve that mean little to me, that I decided to invent my own colour:  Penge.   Unfortunately it eventually backfired on me as I referred to something as being penge, and my wife corrected me, saying "That's not penge, it taupe".

 ;D
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 September, 2017, 08:28:45 pm
I wasn't quite sure about taupe, so I looked it up. As I thought, it's another synonym for drab.
Quote
Taupe ( /ˈtoʊp/ TOHP) is a dark brown color in-between brown and gray. The word derives from the French noun taupe meaning "mole". The name originally referred only to the average color of the French mole, but beginning in the 1940s, its usage expanded to encompass a wider range of shades.

Taupe is a vague color term which may refer to almost any grayish-brown or brownish-gray, but true taupe is difficult to pinpoint as brown or gray.
Tenants can judge how ambitious their landlord is by whether the walls are described as beige, magnolia or taupe.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Rod Marton on 14 September, 2017, 08:28:07 am
By the way, I had become so tired of people referring to colours like turquoise and mauve that mean little to me, that I decided to invent my own colour:  Penge.   Unfortunately it eventually backfired on me as I referred to something as being penge, and my wife corrected me, saying "That's not penge, it taupe".  I can't even tell my own made-up colour.  I may entitle my autobiography "The Colour Penge".

Brilliant! Can I borrow it?

I've always assumed that as English contains about ten words for different colours, that's how many there are. I get fed up with all these made-up colours too.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 14 September, 2017, 05:08:47 pm
My colour vision is utterly pants (but I'm not yet in my 70s, so Dim's OK there).  It doesn't affect my driving or cycling.  As Kim says, the reflective cats eye things on slip roads are a different colour to other ones, so I've been told.  I've never been able to detect that, but it's not a problem.

I can detect it *if I'm paying attention*.  If I'm driving, then I'd better not be concentrating on trying to work out what colour little dots of light are.

That's the thing about colourblindness - when you've spent your entire life in a world where colours are unremarkable, then you don't waste cognitive effort on colour where there are more reliable cues.  I'd say that over half the real-world colour vision issues I have are due to attention[1] rather than colour discrimination.  For example, barakta might ask me to buy "the blue bagels", and I'll have to ask which flavour she means, because by default I pay attention to the perfectly good text on the label, rather than the colour of the wrapper, and I've no idea whether there's also a purple-that-I-might-mistake-for-blue flavour that I'm unaware of.  Or I might not spot that two things are subtly different because the colours appear similar (I once came home with a bottle of Jif lime juice for pancake day, because they were the same colour and I never realised that lime juice was a thing).  Actual colour discrimination issues tend to be things like charging LEDs, bad web design and resistor colour bands, which are surprisingly rare.


[1] Often other people's attention, if we want to be social model of disability about it.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Fructify on 15 September, 2017, 10:06:27 am

If only it were orange as, personally, I'm becoming less of a fan of yellow hi-viz. I subscribe to the theory that many car drivers will subconsciously associate yellow hi-viz with static road furniture; which, in my mind, explains some of the dreadful anticipation (e.g. left hooks as the object they've just overtaken is static) and close passes (hi-viz bollards, being inanimate objects, don't mind being passed closely).


For drivers who, like me, are colour-blind, orange is NOT a good choice for hi-viz, as it blends really nicely into a green background. Yellow is the only colour which stands out against anything.

On the railways you see the track workers wearing orange rather than yellow.  My understanding is that this is because yellow can blend in with the vegetation.  In the US many states make hunters wear orange because its stands out whilst the deer they are after only see in black an white so orange doesn't give hunters way so I can understand people with different vision will see things differently. 

It would appear that there is no universal colour that stands out for everyone. 
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: mustgettaller on 15 September, 2017, 12:09:47 pm
Yellow high-viz can definitely blend in.

A few months ago when driving in the leafy West Sussex lanes I rounded a corner and spotted some horse riders very late. When I'd slowed down and apologised to them for the speed of my approach, I pointed out that their yellow high-viz tabards blended in perfectly with the sunlight shining through the trees.

This is one reason I ride with lights all the time  (and don't bother with high-viz). When going in and out of heavily shaded wooded lanes, it's easy to be hard to spot by other road users.

Just my 2p worth.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 15 September, 2017, 01:04:13 pm
It would appear that there is no universal colour that stands out for everyone.

Blue is the colour that's unaffected by most types of colourblindness (true monochromats usually have the receptors for blue light - though of course it will appear 'white' to them), but that doesn't mean it's any good for contrast against a blue background, or when there isn't much blue light around.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Cpt Sisko on 17 September, 2017, 08:26:30 pm
As a Sales Rep doing a lot of miles in both urban and rural envioroments, just chucking my tupence worth in as well.

I think yellow Hi Viz is vastly over rated as a safety tool in the busy urban envoiroment for cyclist to think it's going to make them stand out anymore. There are just so many 'others' also wearing hi viz for the cyclist to be the exception. Everyone from workmen to binmen, charity collectors to paramedics seem to wear yellow hi viz, the cyclist wearing hi vis just another jacket. Okay, it may still help, but it isn't a magic defence shield.

In less busy area I do think it serves it's purpose, in rural ones, maybe but I do tend to sway to the blend in point of view.

My big exception, at night. The yellow bit is useless, but the reflective parts works a treat and draws your eye, paticularly of movement is involved. However, and this is a big however, don't wear a rucksack over top and block off the said reflective strips. Ditto with back lights pointing to the stars or down to the ground. Point them horizontal so they can do thier job.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Kim on 17 September, 2017, 08:32:40 pm
My big exception, at night. The yellow bit is useless but the reflective parts works a treat and draw your eye, paticularly of movement is involved. However, and this is a big however, don't wear a rucksack over top and block of the said reflective strips. Ditto with back lights pointing to the stars or down to the ground. Point them horizontal so they can do thier job.

My general approach is correctly aligned lights (preferably not under the saddle where clothing can dangle in front of them) and liberal application of Scotchlite tape to convenient parts of the bike - rear rack, seat stays, mudguards, cranks, back of recumbent seat, etc.  Those 3M spoke reflectors are good too, in the subset of situations where they can actually do anything useful.

At which point reflective clothing becomes largely redundant (but if you're going to wear reflectives, on a conventional bike the lower leg is by far the most effective place - it's down in the headlight beam, and the distinctive movement screams 'cyclist').

Those 'Hump' rucksack covers solve the rucksack-over-hi-vis problem, but for some reason they seem to be overwhelmingly popular with the fast-prat-on-a-bike demographic.  I assume because they appeal to the people who've been cycle commuting for long enough to have developed some fitness, but who haven't yet discovered panniers or road sense.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: dim on 17 September, 2017, 08:39:18 pm
As a Sales Rep doing a lot of miles in both urban and rural envioroments, just chucking my tupence worth in as well.

I think yellow Hi Viz is vastly over rated as a safety tool in the busy urban envoiroment for cyclist to think it's going to make them stand out anymore. There are just so many 'others' also wearing hi viz for the cyclist to be the exception. Everyone from workmen to binmen, charity collectors to paramedics seem to wear yellow hi viz, the cyclist wearing hi vis just another jacket. Okay, it may still help, but it isn't a magic defence shield.

In less busy area I do think it serves it's purpose, in rural ones, maybe but I do tend to sway to the blend in point of view.

My big exception, at night. The yellow bit is useless, but the reflective parts works a treat and draws your eye, paticularly of movement is involved. However, and this is a big however, don't wear a rucksack over top and block off the said reflective strips. Ditto with back lights pointing to the stars or down to the ground. Point them horizontal so they can do thier job.

for night, you need the proviz reflect jacket .... If you do audax and cycle in the dark, this is a must have IMHO ... you get lit up like Caspar the ghost ... amazing

if you use a rucksack, get the Proviz


and I'm not a Proviz employee  :P
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Jacomus on 20 September, 2017, 04:17:33 pm
From a lorry driver's perspective, yellow or orange hi-viz is very effective in low contrast situations. Lights* are most effective in high contrast situations, and reflectives do work well at night. 


*Of the bright, but well adjusted, variety.

Poorly adjusted frikkin' lazers are downright dangerous, as is aiming your Exposure headtorch on Turbo Mode at the driver. Tripleplusdangerous at night, in the rain.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: hellymedic on 22 September, 2017, 11:22:08 pm
From my Twitter feed:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKW42zzUEAAR4CJ.jpg:large)
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Jacomus on 06 October, 2017, 12:50:48 pm
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Peter on 06 October, 2017, 01:01:24 pm
Scene attended by Australian police, apparently.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 October, 2017, 12:13:32 pm

On the railways you see the track workers wearing orange rather than yellow.  My understanding is that this is because yellow can blend in with the vegetation.  In the US many states make hunters wear orange because its stands out whilst the deer they are after only see in black an white so orange doesn't give hunters way so I can understand people with different vision will see things differently. 

It would appear that there is no universal colour that stands out for everyone.
Last time I worked "on or near the line" in the UK, which was 6 months ago, railway hi viz was orange. No ifs, buts or maybes.  They're strict on hardhat colour too - no red or green, as that's what colour signals are.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 08:13:09 am
my logic suggests that it is not a good idea to have stuff written on the back for the drivers to read. firstly, there is not enough space to make it readable (only one big letter would be visible if it's printed on the lower half of the vest/gillet). secondly, if the driver tries to read what's written on your back he/she may drive in to you - similar phenomenon when people drive into roadside objects on deserted roads as they keep looking at them. imo, yacf jersey arrows on rear pockets are a good solution (for the uk) as it reminds a common road sign. another image that could work well is a big horizontal right arrow with "1.5m" printed on it.

I'm reminded of Sarah Outen's hi vi jacket on her ride across North America. It had something along the lines of "I'm not mad" or "I'm ok" written across it because people kept stopping to check on this cyclist crossing Alaska & Canada in the snow...

J
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 08:31:27 am
I think yellow Hi Viz is vastly over rated as a safety tool in the busy urban envoiroment for cyclist to think it's going to make them stand out anymore. There are just so many 'others' also wearing hi viz for the cyclist to be the exception. Everyone from workmen to binmen, charity collectors to paramedics seem to wear yellow hi viz, the cyclist wearing hi vis just another jacket. Okay, it may still help, but it isn't a magic defence shield.

The thing with yellow is to do with saturation, the effect is that to the human eye, it just washes out. Orange sticks out a lot more.

Yellow also can be an issue in country lanes when on a backdrop of oil seed rape fields in full bloom...

I got an orange and yellow hump pack cover when I was regularly cycling to college down country lanes. The combo of both colours plus the reflectives and me sticking a blinky light on it basically gave noone an excuse for not seeing me.

Years ago the HSE did a test of the visibility of various colours at sea and found that during daylight hours, Black bouys are more visible than yellow ones on a lumpy ocean. It's interesting how this all works.

I don't like hi vi, it always feels like victim blaming to insist on it in addition to the bike lights. Each unto their own.

J
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 October, 2017, 05:40:17 pm
Official Nevada Department of Transportation ones are mostly orange with both yellow and reflective stripes, though the Dutch kids' bright orange team-issue T-shaped shirts were just as visible.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Moleman76 on 17 October, 2017, 04:19:31 am
" heyreflecto " in Australia sell an interesting assortment of eye-catching hi-viz vests / gilets.  They probably don't strictly comply with any standards, but look to be very visible.

www.heyreflecto.com should get you close
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: 504steve on 17 October, 2017, 10:58:41 am
" heyreflecto " in Australia sell an interesting assortment of eye-catching hi-viz vests / gilets.  They probably don't strictly comply with any standards, but look to be very visible.

www.heyreflecto.com should get you close

www.heyreflecto.com.au (http://www.heyreflecto.com.au) will get you closer  :)

also eye-catching prices.
Title: Re: HI VIZ
Post by: Jaded on 17 October, 2017, 11:23:13 am
Ironic - in a country where helmets are compulsory, most models in that website are not wearing them. In this country it is often the other way round!