Author Topic: Incentivising groups riding  (Read 5726 times)

Incentivising groups riding
« on: 16 October, 2016, 11:10:56 am »
I have been wondering about coming up with an incentive for group riding and wondered what the mood was around here for that sort of thing.

My thought was that people might be encouraged to try out longer rides such as 400 if they felt that they were likely to have company for at least part of the ride. 

I was thinking of trialling on London Wales London something along the lines of:
- Groups of five that enter together and at least four finish together get some sort of incentive OR
- Groups of five who ride the last section together (i.e take a group photo as they leave the last control) get some sort of incentive (this will enable people to make friends on the way around) OR

I'm not sure what sort of incentive would be attractive.  I was thinking of something symbolic like an AUK 400k Medal and an honourable mention on the event website (www.londonwaleslondon.com) .

At the risk of opening the floodgates for a debate about AUK rules, I was wondering what people thought of the idea of removing loneliness as a factor in whether someone enters a 400...

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #1 on: 16 October, 2016, 11:32:34 am »
Perhaps people don't like listening to others rabbit on about meaningless topics and would rather be in their own world,
wanting to finish the ride and carry on with their non-cycling interests. Just sayin'.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #2 on: 16 October, 2016, 11:35:19 am »
Good thought LF.

Quite a few Continentals begin riding longer brevets with UAF group brevets, because they know they won't be left alone in the dark.

DS, riding together would not be compulsory for this brevet. Just sayin'.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #3 on: 16 October, 2016, 11:43:18 am »
I fear I'm the person De Sisti would want to escape. I can do 400s alone, but I get bored. I like company, as I find it makes the miles go quicker and can help with rough patches.

I think it sounds like a great idea

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #4 on: 16 October, 2016, 12:01:51 pm »
There are group riding events - the Arrows. What about giving extra club points if riders finish together. This could be done by having a virtual club member that gets allocate bonus points if two of more rides from the same club finish together? Would require some administration, but could work and would then not be any change to the accumulation of individual points.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #5 on: 16 October, 2016, 01:01:35 pm »
There are group riding events - the Arrows. What about giving extra club points if riders finish together. This could be done by having a virtual club member that gets allocate bonus points if two of more rides from the same club finish together? Would require some administration, but could work and would then not be any change to the accumulation of individual points.

BB

Thanks - I was hoping to go for something really simple that sort of administers itself and doesn't involve changes to anything back at AUK Towers...

... or do anything to limit the pleasure that people get from riding alone (I love being alone with my thoughts at night myself...)


frankly frankie

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #6 on: 16 October, 2016, 01:03:33 pm »
There used to be a trophy awarded to the club with most finishers on Windsor-Chester-Windsor.  Any event could do this, or a variation involving people finishing together.  As an extreme, the incentive can be quite big - eg on the Marmotte the 'winning' 'team' gets something like a group ski holiday.

Of course a group needn't necessarily be all from one club, and club members needn't necessarily ride together ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #7 on: 16 October, 2016, 03:35:34 pm »
It's an interesting idea. I did find the solitary nature of severn across last year as one of the tougher things about it.

But I think people who enter together with the intention of riding together are likely to stick together, and those being put off by the thought of riding alone would have to rely on finding company at the start.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #8 on: 16 October, 2016, 03:58:33 pm »
Perhaps the simplest scheme would be to pay in advance for a special team medal. You can fiddle with the exact rules, but basically if they all/most finish, they each get the medal/mug/T-shirt and a mention on a special Honours board on your spiffing event website.

(any scheme that is just an incentive based around the current points/trophies/awards will mainly reward experienced SRs who have already made lots of contacts on previous "long" rides.)

The fiddly bit would be finding teams for riders without much audaxing experience, but certainly not an insoluble problem.


Anyway, I like your goal - it's just the strategy that needs some thought. :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #9 on: 16 October, 2016, 04:33:25 pm »
Two main things some to mind.

First. Many Audax riders do not come from a back ground where they have learnt the method and etiquette of group riding.  For instance, they will sit on another riders wheel and contribute nothing.  When the rider in the front starts to fade a bit, and could do with a wheel to follow, the sit in sprinter wizzes past and breaks up the group, usually to end up 100 yards up the road.  Eventually they fade and get caught again, and repeat the process.  If you try and explain to the how they could work with the group, they get stroppy.

Second. Very often you go through an event naturally joining up with one or more riders, but often the group evolves and sometimes completely changes.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #10 on: 16 October, 2016, 06:03:41 pm »
There were several tired folk on the 2011 Severn Across that were happy to work together on the last stage to qualify for PBP. They came together naturally before the penultimate control, after some discussions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #11 on: 16 October, 2016, 07:26:41 pm »
Always surprises me, how many solo riders within a stone's throw of each other flog themselves to death into a headwind rather than group up to make the conditions bearable.

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #12 on: 16 October, 2016, 07:41:12 pm »
That's actually pretty easy to do on twisty British roads.  It's not too difficult to ride 200k a hundred yards behind someone and not even know they are there.  Even more so if they are a hundred yards behind you.  Some of us love wind, anyway - it makes the boasting real!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #13 on: 16 October, 2016, 09:25:19 pm »
Group riding takes practice - its not just the etiquette - but also the ability to ride a steady pace and to develop a sixth sense of whether other riders are starting to struggle - when you have to lift off for a while.  There are some really good group riders in Audax - I've certainly teamed up with a few and ridden turn and turn about for 100k or more.  However, there are others, who when it comes to their turn on the front put the hammer down, making the pace jerky and requiring short bursts of hard effort to keep on a wheel.  That may work well on an 80k club run but with 200k+ to go has me taking the back door option.

I've found it really hard to set out and complete a ride of more than 200k with someone else.  Over longer distances, everyone has bad patches (I typically struggle more than others of the same pace as me about 6 - 8 hours into an event).  If you ride as a group you end up riding at the pace of the slowest at any point, so unless you are all reasonably quick you risk flirting with time limits.

The way around this would be to ride a whole series of events as a group, so that you got used to each other's pace and foibles, and that sixth sense becomes easier to get.
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

mr ben

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #14 on: 17 October, 2016, 12:08:51 am »
None of us are born knowing group riding etiquette.  AUK rides are not club rides.

I find riding with other people very stressful. Partly because it's an extra dimension to cope with; an extra person or people to monitor, keep an appropriate distance from, etc; my mind is quite happy thinking about the next route sheet instruction.  But mainly because I am socially awkward and generally have no desire to 'chat' whilst riding.  If I saw an audax that 'incentivised' group riding I wouldn't enter.
Think it possible that you may be mistaken.

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #15 on: 17 October, 2016, 12:34:06 am »
ben, I don't think the OP is suggesting that lone riders should be excluded; he's just floating an idea.  I wouldn't let it put you off riding a good route.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #16 on: 17 October, 2016, 08:29:51 am »
Yes, the OP is about encouraging team/group entries, not 'group riding' per se.

mattc

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #17 on: 17 October, 2016, 08:45:06 am »
Whether it's about "group riding" or "group entries", I didn't see a single thing in the OP that was about discouraging solo entries (or solo riding).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

frankly frankie

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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #18 on: 17 October, 2016, 09:08:07 am »
Yes it's the 50-50 mix of solo riding with forming ad hoc groups which is one of the best things about audax IMHO.  As mentioned above, committing to riding with a buddy for the whole event just makes it more difficult.

For instance, they will sit on another riders wheel and contribute nothing.  When the rider in the front starts to fade a bit, and could do with a wheel to follow, the sit in sprinter wizzes past and breaks up the group, usually to end up 100 yards up the road.  Eventually they fade and get caught again, and repeat the process.  If you try and explain to the how they could work with the group, they get stroppy.

So would I if someone tries to tell me how to live my life.  The behaviour you describe, though it seems to irritate many, does no harm to anyone.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #19 on: 17 October, 2016, 09:26:06 am »
For instance, they will sit on another riders wheel and contribute nothing.  When the rider in the front starts to fade a bit, and could do with a wheel to follow, the sit in sprinter wizzes past and breaks up the group, usually to end up 100 yards up the road.  Eventually they fade and get caught again, and repeat the process.  If you try and explain to the how they could work with the group, they get stroppy.

So would I if someone tries to tell me how to live my life.  The behaviour you describe, though it seems to irritate many, does no harm to anyone.

It does, though. A rides in front for 10-15 minutes and then B, still fresh from the shelter provided, belts on up the road and leaves A still taking the wind for the bulk of the pack. Selfish.

Riding in impromptu pelotons I've noticed, though, that once someone takes the head position everyone else will happily fall in behind and stay there.  Eventually someone else behind may develop a conscience and take a stint. With a bit of luck so will the others, eventually, but more often than not it'll be just those two rotating and the others profiting from it.

I have occasionally ridden in small groups - 3 or 4 - when a proper rotation has developed, but it's very rare.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

LMT

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #20 on: 17 October, 2016, 09:33:04 am »
IIRC I read somewhere that in a group whatever time you are down by you multiply this by the amount of people in your group.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #21 on: 17 October, 2016, 09:38:45 am »
Riding in impromptu pelotons I've noticed, though, that once someone takes the head position everyone else will happily fall in behind and stay there.  Eventually someone else behind may develop a conscience and take a stint. With a bit of luck so will the others, eventually, but more often than not it'll be just those two rotating and the others profiting from it.

Have you ever watched an Elite race (track or road)?

The lead riders peel off. They don't grind themselves into the dirt, getting slower-and-slower, swearing under their breath about those selfish riders behind!

(and if you peel off when you're still fairly fresh, it's much easier to hold the wheels when you drop back in).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Phil W

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #22 on: 17 October, 2016, 09:49:55 am »
Quote
At the risk of opening the floodgates for a debate about AUK rules, I was wondering what people thought of the idea of removing loneliness as a factor in whether someone enters a 400...

You need a way on your website (or other means) for riders who would like to form a team, to register that interest.  Perhaps with some way to indicate their style of riding, a bit of background on their experience,  their typical on the road pace, and how long they expect to ride for.   Perhaps some questions on what they would do if they felt the group was going to be out of time (would they stick together for instance or split and try and make the finish in time on their own?).   Why do they want to ride in a team?

Then you can do a bit of Cupids magic to put those in touch you would most likely fit as a team.  Encourage them to meet and ride a shorter distance together to see if they gel. Then perhaps an incentive that members of teams that pre register, pass through all the controls together, and finish together get £5 back off their entry fee and a medal. Plus of course an entry in your hall of fame page on your website.


You could of course just advertise a pre event ride where riders interested in forming a team can come along for a day out with others with the same idea. Then let natural selection take place.  Those that get on during the day can make their own decision on whether to form a team. Make this far enough away from the event that they still have time to enter (if they haven't already).

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #23 on: 17 October, 2016, 10:09:00 am »
Training days............. for Audax?

Phil W

Re: Incentivising groups riding
« Reply #24 on: 17 October, 2016, 10:12:25 am »
Training days............. for Audax?

Who said anything about training?  It's just a day out riding, with a pub lunch somewhere, where the purpose is to see if there's anyone you gel with sufficiently to make the idea of riding as a team attractive etc.