Author Topic: Modern TV technology  (Read 2920 times)

Beardy

  • Shedist
Modern TV technology
« on: 19 December, 2022, 09:13:00 pm »
Who knows things about the various technologies and screen definitions associated with modern technology? There was a time when I was mostly up to speed on this stuff, ailed as it was with computers, but since retirement I’ve not really kept up and now,the main TV needs to be replaced I’m somewhat amazed at all the new stuffs that seem to have become common place on er the last 5 years.

So if anyone feels up to the challenge, what do I NEED, what would I want, and what I’m I unlikely to use. My main use case is streaming TV with some occasional broadcast TV. I’d like the smarts to be contained within the TV rather than needing an extra box. We don’t have satellite.

Alternatively, where can I find a quick primer to bring me up to speed.

Thank you.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #1 on: 20 December, 2022, 12:32:07 am »
I’d like the smarts to be contained within the TV rather than needing an extra box.

Bear in mind that in a year or two the manufacturer will inevitably stop releasing firmware updates, leaving you with an expensive telly full of largely useless smarts.  There's a lot to be said for a sacrificial Chromecast or similar on that basis.

(My up-to-dateness on the subject is limited to computer monitors, but 4k and HDR seem worthwhile.  Presumably televisions can actually run at 24fps - computer monitors generally don't, so I have to live with the occasional stutter when watching film-derived content.)

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #2 on: 20 December, 2022, 07:39:24 am »
I must admit that I like the Chromecast idea.  Access all that visual media through your phone and pump it to the big TV and soundbar in the corner.

The real question is, what will you realistically need?  We have been retaining a redundant pile of hifi separates beneath our TV but the reality is that an Intel nuc, a blu ray player and a soundbar connected to the TV (and blu ray to soundbar directly) replaces all the hifi separates and the floating speaker clutter.

The nuc will remain up to date with regards to streaming services far longer than the smart TV though the 4k hdr TV spec should stay relevant for a good decade with regards to our needs.  I already anticipate the TV becoming little more than a monitor over time though at present we can watch BBC iPlayer, netflix and much more if we so wished directly through it.

We can watch BBC, netflix, YouTube etc. on the telly, we zoom from our sofa with a webcam attached to the nuc, we can play our modest collection of cd's, DVD's and blu ray through the blu ray box enjoying the reasonable sound output of the mid range soundbar.

I bought same brand TV, blu ray and soundbar in the hope that they would talk seamlessly to each other and it appears to be the case. 

I anticipate upgrading the nuc in five years or so demoting the current nuc to lesser pc type duties elsewhere in the house.

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #3 on: 20 December, 2022, 09:49:58 am »
For a Smart TV look at getting one with Android TV built in rather than some propitiatory Smarts from the TV manufacturer. This relies much less on the TV manufacturer updating things to keep it going as it gets its updates straight from Meta (Goole). Obviously at some point those updates wont be supported either but it should work for longer. Once it does die you can then just hook up an external box, Nuc, Amazon Fire or whatever.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #4 on: 20 December, 2022, 10:04:24 am »
Forget smart TVs.  Many manufacturers drop support for the apps after a year or two, so you'll need a set top box or a dongle anyway.  Panasonic are especially crap for this.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #5 on: 20 December, 2022, 10:35:46 am »
Don't buy Toshiba. (Ours is slow, has trouble maintaining connection to WiFi).

Most smart TVs are fine, and as Kim said, you can plug a firestick or chromecast into the TV if there is an issue with support.

We've had a good experience with Samsung. One in our York house is 8 years old and still going strong.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #6 on: 20 December, 2022, 10:42:54 am »
Forget smart TVs.  Many manufacturers drop support for the apps after a year or two, so you'll need a set top box or a dongle anyway.  Panasonic are especially crap for this.

Hence Android TV ......
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Woofage

  • Tofu-eating Wokerati
  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #7 on: 20 December, 2022, 12:09:43 pm »
All our TV viewing is via Chromecast now (our Sony TV is well out of support, probably) since we no longer have an aerial. For 30-quid you really can't go wrong and it works with all* the catch-up services**

* all the ones we've tried (BBC, C4, C5, ITV, Netflix, Disney+, Apple, Kanopy, Amazon etc)
** you can't watch "live" TV on C4 and ITV yet, which may be a deal-breaker for some
Pen Pusher

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #8 on: 20 December, 2022, 01:29:42 pm »
Is the loss of privacy when using Alexa voice commands on the TV worth the convenience?
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #9 on: 20 December, 2022, 01:55:46 pm »
I'd be worried about Google or Amazon silently logging how often you freeze-frame the tits in Game of Thrones, then blackmailing you unless you buy more stuff from them.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #10 on: 20 December, 2022, 02:51:35 pm »
Quite like my LG smart TV. Has all of the streaming stuff I care about. And still working fine after a few years anyway. Also can view photos stored on my NAS.

Though got a Chromecast as well. Sometimes it is handy just to mirror the screen from phone or tablet.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #11 on: 22 December, 2022, 02:07:35 pm »
I don't work in telly any more (Hurrah!) but here's my £0.02

All the gimmicks are to make you buy more crap when the manufacturer wants you to, rather than when the kit actually needs replacing.

Things you actually need:

1. Decent sound system.
However you happen to define decent, remember that you're mostly listening to the sound, not looking at the pictures.  Trust me on this.

2. A screen whose resolution and size is correct for your viewing distance.
Numbers on this vary - THX standards are different from everyone else's - and there's quite a bit of leeway but it's relatively simple to work out the range, and these days there are online ready reckoners that do it for you. For 1080, the distance is further away than for UHD/4K(/8K - I mean, really?), because the limiting factor is the pixel size and distance at which you see individual pixels (Snellen limit). For most people the viewing distance is fixed by the size/layout of the room, so if you go to 4K for the same room you'd ideally want a bigger screen, and there isn't much overlap between recommended distances for the same size 1080/4K screen.  My 46" 1080 screen is roughly 2.5m (about 8') away which is in the middle of the range for that size, but if I went to 4K it would need to be a 65" screen to be in that range.

3. Technology appropriate to the resolution and dynamic range of your screen
If you're streaming, and you go to 4K, you should probably think about the High Dynamic Range aspect too.  Old-school telly was constrained in its parameters by the fact that CRT screens used phosphorescent coatings which glowed, and this kind of thing is notorious for non linearity.  Much Maths. Many headscratch. The maths fudged things by shifting the electronic parameters of the capture side (gamma) so that when it was shown through the non linear screen it came out kind of correct, but it was never possible to reproduce reality from black to white, so the dynamic range was also constrained.  This put limits on how things were lit, shot, and graded for viewing. The colorimetry was similarly constrained for different reasons, and there were such things as ‘illegal’ colours - colours in real life that couldn’t easily exist in telly in the PAL system in the UK. If you lived in the north west of England in the 90’s you could see illegal colours on TX of Star Trek TNG, where the blue of the credits went below sync level and used to disrupt the line sync.

Now we have a much-different set of screen parameters, and can show stuff we couldn’t previously transmit.  Purple, for example.  ;D

In reality this creates more problems than it solves.  If you’re watching old school transmitted telly, you need the correct gamma, as per the last 50+ years.  If you want to see High Dynamic Range in your streaming service, you need a system that will decode HDR.  The BBC were opting for Hybrid Log Gamma which is backwards compatible with the original gamma - if you have the right screen receiving HLG you can see the HDR, if you don’t you can see it as it used to look without the HDR making it wrong.  All screens should do standard gamma, but there are options for HDR - standards are everything, and there are many - and the transfer function for some HDR systems isn’t backward compatible.  HDR10 and its variations allow for the basics of HDR, and Dolby hope that everyone will eventually adopt Dolby Vision (because of course), and the world is full of buzzwords like ‘tone mapping’ and ‘REC.2020’ (see also: Rec.709, Rec.2100, Rec.1886) which I absolutely guarantee that almost nobody outside the industry (and very few within it) actually understands.  Don’t start me on ACES colourspace, and whether a colour is actually a colour if humans can’t see it, I can bore for England on this stuff.

Find out what your streaming service supports, and get a screen that does at least that.  If you know what standard they’re aiming for in the future it’s a bonus if you’re compatible with that too. HLG, HDR10 or HDR10+, Dolby Vision and PQ could all be shown if you’re looking for buzzwords or stickers on the kit.  Of course, if you're not going to be paying for 4K/HDR then you don't need it, but if you might pay for it later you'll need the right screen.

4. Thinking of colorimetry, I would go with a screen whose parameters can be set correctly.  At the very least make sure you can alter the main colour temperature of the screen to something other than 9300K, because that’s too blue, and most screens I dealt with in the last ten years came out of the box like that.  6500K is correct for the UK, and there should be a menu option to at least get you into that area, even if you don’t have the screen colour calibrated.

Otherwise, I’d go with whatever provides your service and fits your price bracket.  If you want forward compatibility for the long term, get a monitor and a separate streaming box so you can change the technology without being subject to the screen manufacturer’s planned obsolescence.

As ever YMMV, caveat emptor, suck it and see...
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #12 on: 22 December, 2022, 11:00:15 pm »
Wow, that brings back some memories from my 1980's broadcast engineering training with the IBA. Must revise Bruch blanking...

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #13 on: 23 December, 2022, 12:01:06 am »
You can’t buy a big 1080p TV anymore. A quick check of Argos says most models over 32 inches and all models over 43 inches are 4k, so that decision is made for you.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #14 on: 23 December, 2022, 10:35:40 am »
According to all the charts I’ve found online, the optimum size TV for my 3m sofa to screen distance is between 70” and 85”. We will NOT be going that large.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #15 on: 23 December, 2022, 12:59:55 pm »
Me neither. On the basis that I still watch 625 line DVDs that are perfectly acceptable when upscaled by my system, we haven't even considered going to 4K. Plus we can't be arsed paying for a streaming service.  ;D
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #16 on: 23 December, 2022, 01:04:17 pm »
Plus Sturgeon's Law applies to programming.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #17 on: 23 December, 2022, 01:31:47 pm »
4k is excellent for a computer display.  It's also excellent for watching Youtubers doing fiddly detailed work (you know, the sort of thing that's more interesting than proper television programmes), when you watch at a distance where you can actually see all those pixels, which either means a telly the size of your wall, or a large computer monitor at computer monitor distances.

I remain unconvinced that it's of much use for mainstream programming, except when you nerdily freeze frames to appreciate the efforts of the set dressers or read the full text of whatever document is briefly shown on the screen.

(Disclaimer: We got rid of the telly some years ago to fit more bikes in the living room.  I do my television watching on my computer, where the sound is better[1], and I can spod around on the second monitor during the dull bits.  Crucially, I can watch HD[2] at computer-monitor distances without glasses, whereas anything across the room is VHS-quality by default.)


[1] You need some very expensive kit to come close to the performance of a decent pair of headphones.
[2] 4k is marginal, and I need to go back to the optiquack and get them to work out an intermediate-distance prescription that doesn't go the wrong way.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #18 on: 23 December, 2022, 02:36:56 pm »
The current screen is 48” which is about right. Given that the replacement is more than likely to be 4k on the basis that this seems to be the default over 30”, I might get a 55” but that is most definitely the maximum. That’s also still a might.

I think I’ve decided on OLED, and the only facility that is a must is support for audio out and simultaneous TV speakers. Preferably Bluetooth, but I can gibble a Bt transmitter to a 3.5mm jack if necessary.

Having had a cursory look, I can’t find a receiver and separate monitor, so I’ll probably get a smart TV of some sort and when the smarts die, use the screen as a monitor for updated standalone smarts.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #19 on: 23 December, 2022, 03:48:33 pm »
OLEDs are good at black levels, although some LCDs can be close if they have a full array backlight and good dynamic local dimming.  Check your viewing angle is catered for without an angular colour shift.
OLEDs will age gradually, and eventually suffer from a colour shift, but it shouldn't be an issue over the likely burn time of a domestic screen.  We did see this on gen 1 Sony OLEDs but they were on 12-18 hours a day, which is normal for a TV station. The big difference these days is that an OLED screen no longer costs £20,000!
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #20 on: 23 December, 2022, 04:30:36 pm »
I can't get bigger than a 36" TV between the stove's melting zone and the curtains, so boo to optimum sizes. 
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #21 on: 28 December, 2022, 06:37:54 pm »
After all the fantastic input, thank you all, I’ve decided that I want an LG 55 C2 OLED. It ticks all the boxes, and seems the best for my needs.

But before I press the button, I thought I’d check that there are no gotchas anyone knows about with LG sets or WebOS that runs on their sets.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #22 on: 28 December, 2022, 06:43:04 pm »
Suggest you check out slope's new thread?
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=124800.0
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #23 on: 14 February, 2024, 04:08:51 pm »
Rise from your grave topic!

Ummm, I am struggling to read subtitles on my 21 inch TV (est 2011).  Looking to get a monster 40 inch and want to be able to see things and hear things.

Looking at
Hisense
Or
Bush

Any red flags or is it very "meh whatever"
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
    • redshift home
Re: Modern TV technology
« Reply #24 on: 16 February, 2024, 11:31:02 am »
Bush is a name-only these days, and so the machine will be made in Turkey by Vestel, Poland by TPV/AOC, or somewhere further East by whichever company Sainsbury's have gone to to make the order for 20,000 tellies. 
HiSense is definitely Chinese and they are mostly known for making stuff aimed at a lower price-point than the more 'name' brands like Sony, LG, Samsung etc.  They bought the Toshiba imaging brand some years ago, so Toshiba TVs are now HiSense. There aren't that many panel makers, so lots of the lower price-point stuff is made by the same companies and badged.  Even the name brands use outsourced panels at the lower levels.  High end Sony, LG, Samsung are still made in house, I think, but it's a few years since I stopped working in TV and things have moved a lot since then.

The Bush shows a better energy rating, which is a 2kWh per 1000 hrs difference in full power modes.  If you're watching two to three hours per day that's around 2 units of electricity per year. Standby power is the same for both - although I simply switch our old Sony off properly rather than leaving it in standby, that way standby power is zero.  Neither is particularly great, nor particularly bad.  If you can't actually go and see what the screen is like, or check out things like whether the menu system is sluggish, or if it takes too long to lock up after changing channels, then it's probably much of a muchness. 

The Bush one claims to do HDR10 which is of use if you're planning to watch high dynamic range material, just be aware that it doubles your power consumption when you push it like that (75W as opposed to 37W).  The Hisense doesn't do HDR, if that's a 'must-have' for you.  Do you use a streaming service or local server system that does HDR at 1920x1080?

You might try somewhere like DigitalSpy forums or similar places for the geeks' views, but at that price point I'm not sure there's much to point you to one over the other.

L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…