Author Topic: 'mericans and being imperial  (Read 2664 times)

'mericans and being imperial
« on: 03 July, 2015, 04:06:57 pm »
I wonder when the good ole US of A will grow up and join the rest of the world and use metric threads and fastenings?  I have just been dealing with a number of items from over there and it does make life difficult.

For instance we have a fanless PC mounted in a cradle designed to fit between a gas arm and a monitor using the VESA mount.  The cradle is attached to the arm with imperial screws but attached to the monitor with M4 as it picks up on the VESA mounts.  All products from the same manufacturer.

While I was amusing myself with this I wondered what fastenings American manufacturers use on their cars?  Especially those sold over here.  If they are metric as I hope they would be where do they draw the line?
Don't they badge engineer Japanese or Taiwanese cars?

Random musings.....

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #1 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:11:42 pm »
Not everything is metric, even in france some plumbing fittings use BSP
<i>Marmite slave</i>

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #2 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:20:49 pm »
Lots of exceptions - look no further than your bike.

(OK, someone's still pushing a 1894 Mercian hobbyhorse with agate bearings, but you know what I mean.)
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Jaded

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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #3 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:22:57 pm »
While we are about it, lets get the whole world to speak the same language and use the same currency.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #4 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:23:50 pm »
And don't ever dream of going into the Aerospace industry.
Most of the small parts (fasteners, plumbing etc) on Airbus are 'inch' size, except they've renamed it all so that that instead of nice simple "quarter inch" it's described as "six virgule trente-cing millimetres"
Most of the threads are UNJF though... I think even the French ran out of steam before they got around to renaming those.

One of the reasons the Russians and Chinese struggle to get into the market (apart from a propensity of their products to fall out of the sky) is that they insist on 'proper' metric and then wonder why they struggle to buy any western equipment that will fit.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #5 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:30:21 pm »
I can remember my dad in the 60s extolling the elegance of the Whitworth thread as opposed to its American counterpart, and drawing cross-sections of both for illustration.  Metric was not in his dictionary.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #6 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:40:26 pm »
Electronic components:  Lead spacings are mainly imperial measurements, though often specified in millimetres.  Occasionally you come across a true metric size.  Plenty of scope for embarrassing cockups as you confuse 'mils'[1] with 'mm', and with surface-mount passives, where size code '0402' might mean 1.0x0.5mm or it might mean 0.4x0.2mm.


[1] Leftpondian for 'thou'

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #7 on: 03 July, 2015, 04:42:53 pm »
I can remember my dad in the 60s extolling the elegance of the Whitworth thread as opposed to its American counterpart, and drawing cross-sections of both for illustration.  Metric was not in his dictionary.
So 'imperial vs metric' is a bit of an oversimplification.


But doesn't it come down to who's dominant in any given field at the time? Currently the USA is dominant in both aerospace and bikes, so set inch-based standards. I'm not sure if they still dominate cars, but they did so for long enough to set various basic standards such as inch-denominated tyres.

What's interesting is how we choose to refer to some in inches and some in metric. So we have 31.8mm bars but 1 1/4" stem. Weird!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #8 on: 03 July, 2015, 05:05:19 pm »
It was the USAians, specifically Ford who defined that an inch was exactly 25.4mm.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #9 on: 03 July, 2015, 05:48:03 pm »
UK tape measures are tricky.  With inches down one side and centimetres down the other. 

At least metric tapes have the same both sides.  No doubt US ones do, only different.

I can remember my dad in the 60s extolling the elegance of the Whitworth thread as opposed to its American counterpart, and drawing cross-sections of both for illustration.  Metric was not in his dictionary.

Certainly its profile lends itself to shot peening most successfully, especially if rolled rather than lathe cut.
Move Faster and Bake Things

Piemaster

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #10 on: 03 July, 2015, 05:57:07 pm »
Try the oil industry in Brazil. Buy a metric specification valve, it will be, apart from the threads being cut imperial. Though pipe threads still are BSP, or NSP which WILL fit with a big enough Stillson  :thumbsup:
Liquids in barrels. density in lbs/cubic foot.
In Europe a drum of oil is 208 litres, in Brasil 200 (which actually makes more sense)

I do believe that oil riggers use 'metric inches' for some things ie. 10" to the foot  ???
Also had situations when I've been asked for an odd sounding amount of tonnes of liquid cargo. Hmm...convert it to m3 using the specific gravity as practically liquids come in volumes, and it magically becomes a nice round number. So just ask for the m3 in the first place! 'cos I know you're converting it back again anyway aargh!
This sums it up nicely
http://themetapicture.com/united-states-vs-the-rest-of-the-world/

Ben T

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #11 on: 03 July, 2015, 05:58:36 pm »
They blame it on the French, who they claim had a meeting about metrication and didn't invite them.  ::-)

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #12 on: 03 July, 2015, 06:02:48 pm »
In science they still insist on calories and such.  This is to the point of there being no point in using joules, since all the American Chemical Society journals push this and these are the most flagship chemistry specific academic journals out there more or less.  There is a pretty good reason for SI units but hey ho.  Kind of weird though, try using ounces for mass and it won't wash.  Nothing like a bit of consistency  ::-)
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

Feanor

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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #13 on: 03 July, 2015, 06:14:38 pm »
I do believe that oil riggers use 'metric inches' for some things ie. 10" to the foot  ???

Quite so; there are measuring tapes with 'big inches' ( decimal feet ) and 'little inches' ( normal inches ).
When reckoning the depth you have drilled, you tally up the lengths of the joints of drillpipe you have run in hole.
It's easier to tally it up in your tally book in decimal feet.

The oil industry is dominated by the US, and also by units that are of practical use.
eg: fluid densities can be in PPTF: Psi Per Thousand Feet; the hydrostatic gradient they produce.

All tubulars are in inches.
Drill bits, hole diameters etc are in inches.
Pressures are in PSI.
Acoustic slownesses in microseconds per foot.
Rock densities, are, however in g/cc.
Resistivities in ohm-metres.

Some units are just plain made-up.
Natural background gamma radiation is expressed in API ( American Petroleum Institute ) Gamma Ray Units ( gAPI ).
The definition of this unit is "1/200th of the difference between the activity of 2 lumps of concrete in a test-pit at the Uni. of Houston".
ETA: A reference for that:
http://www.glossary.oilfield.slb.com/en/Terms/a/api_unit.aspx

Kim

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    • Fediverse
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #14 on: 03 July, 2015, 06:18:18 pm »
This sums it up nicely
http://themetapicture.com/united-states-vs-the-rest-of-the-world/

Date formats are a no-score draw:  US style middle-endian is clearly insane, but little-endian isn't actually much better.  I use ISO big-endian date format (with 4-digit year) by default, because it's so much easier to work with.  The three-letter-month variation is pleasingly unambiguous, but loses the innate sortability of ISO.

Mr Larrington

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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #15 on: 03 July, 2015, 06:25:59 pm »
While I was amusing myself with this I wondered what fastenings American manufacturers use on their cars?  Especially those sold over here.  If they are metric as I hope they would be where do they draw the line?
Don't they badge engineer Japanese or Taiwanese cars?

The likes of Honda and Toyota have assembly plants in USAnia but what fittings they use...  USAnian manufacturers tend not to sell the same models in Europe as they do at home and some of those they do flog over here are built in Europe - IIRC the Chrysler people-carriers are assembled in Austria.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #16 on: 03 July, 2015, 07:37:35 pm »
UK tape measures are tricky.  With inches down one side and centimetres down the other. 

That's me down to a tee.
I go back and forth all the time.

It's not uncommon to be down at the wood yard with measurements scribbled on a bit of paper with some of them being in metric and some in imperial, often for different sides of the same bit of wood! - it depends how the tape measure falls when I'm measuring. Sometimes 33&1/2 inches just feels more rounded and clearer than 851mm - it's also easier to mark with a fine pencil. We work it out ok though  :)

Probably from Audax, distances are fine for me in metric, somebody asked me how far my trip to Alicante was the other day and I answered 2000km, then as an after thought - 1200 miles, but I just cannot adjust to body weight being in metric at all! Historically, I know where I am with 14 & 1/2 stone but that converted to kilos means nothing to me. Same with bike weight. I know my recumbents are heavy at 40pounds, but in kilos? Nah, just can't figure it. But at the end of the day all this is just a familiarity, frame of reference thing. Americans measure body weight in pounds and I can't get my head round that either. 203lb? Sorry what's that in stone? 16oz to a pound, 14 pound to a stone - what could be easier ?  :) But then all building material weights are metric, so that's fine.  :facepalm:

Ever get the feeling you got stuck in the 1970s?
Garry Broad

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #17 on: 03 July, 2015, 09:16:05 pm »
I do believe that oil riggers use 'metric inches' for some things ie. 10" to the foot  ???

Quite so; there are measuring tapes with 'big inches' ( decimal feet ) and 'little inches' ( normal inches ).
So the decimal inch is one-tenth of a normal foot. I always assumed it was the other way round, with the decimal foot being ten normal inches.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #18 on: 03 July, 2015, 09:17:16 pm »
This sums it up nicely
http://themetapicture.com/united-states-vs-the-rest-of-the-world/

Date formats are a no-score draw:  US style middle-endian is clearly insane, but little-endian isn't actually much better.  I use ISO big-endian date format (with 4-digit year) by default, because it's so much easier to work with.  The three-letter-month variation is pleasingly unambiguous, but loses the innate sortability of ISO.
How about 03-VII-15?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

redshift

  • High Priestess of wires
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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #19 on: 03 July, 2015, 09:23:21 pm »
Studios at Oxford Road (1970's build) had walls marked in metric 'feet' (300mm).  Studios at Quay Street (1950's build) had walls marked in imperial feet.  Funnily enough, when certain shows that fitted into Oxford Road went to Quay Street, they didn't fit quite as expected.

Mind you, the fact that the studio lighting plots at one were 1:50 and the other used 1:48 might also have had something to do with it.   ;D
L
:)
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Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #20 on: 04 July, 2015, 10:01:21 am »
Whan I had a spell on the North Alwyn platform in the mid 80's the guys were confounded by the change from what they were used to, the US style to the Total style of metric. There was a fair bit of confusion not assisted by the Total management who were at times a bit awkward. As in stacking very heavy pipes they wanted the shoe which went in the hole first at the bottom of the stack as it was to be at the bottom.... of course it should have been on the top to be picked up first. Not funny at 14 tonnes a piece.

PH
Bees do nothing invariably.

red marley

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #21 on: 04 July, 2015, 10:20:01 am »
I note that in the US, what we call imperial, are often referred to as 'English units'

woollypigs

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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #22 on: 04 July, 2015, 11:49:30 am »
Quite a few US friends and in some movies, uses klicks. They refer to it as kilometres not miles. It is either military or Canadian slang.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #23 on: 04 July, 2015, 03:15:47 pm »
"Klicks" for kilometres is much used by the BRITISH Army.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Piemaster

Re: 'mericans and being imperial
« Reply #24 on: 04 July, 2015, 05:30:55 pm »
That's me down to a tee.
I go back and forth all the time.
 
Me too. Estimate a distance in feet, as 6' just seems easier than 1.8m. Same with 6" instead of 150mm. But if I'm actually geetting a tape out to  measure it - mm all the way.
Volumes I tend to do in litres or buckets as most buckets are about 10 litres which isn't that far off a gallon as a rough estimate anyway. I also have a mental picture of 25litres (small oil drum) 200litres (big oil drum) and a tonne is a cubic metre of water.

Rig side of the oil industry makes no sense to me at all.