Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 08:03:25 am

Title: French High vi rules
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 08:03:25 am

I've just realised that an upcoming ride includes cutting off a corner of France, possibly at night. My googling suggests that as well as a recent law that means I have to take the headphones off for this bit, if it's low vis or dark, I need to wear a high visibility vest.

This seems pretty clear. The question I have is does it need to be approved by some standard? There's lots of lightweight running type vests that look like they won't flap about like mad, but I doubt they have any actual standards approved status. Are these likely to be acceptable to the French plod?

What happens if I am wearing a backpack/hydration pack over the top?

J
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Plug1n on 08 October, 2017, 08:39:04 am
Technically yes.

http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/conseils-pour-une-route-plus-sure/conseils-pratiques/circuler-a-velo/circuler-a-velo-roulez-en-toute-securite (http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/conseils-pour-une-route-plus-sure/conseils-pratiques/circuler-a-velo/circuler-a-velo-roulez-en-toute-securite) lists in the bullet points near the top all the things that are must haves.

I see lots of cyclists who don't have half of those things, including reflectors on the pedals!

This lists "un gilet rétroréfléchissant certifié", i.e. a certified reflective vest for riding outside town at night and when visibility is poor. 

The one I bought in Decathlon a few years back did have CE certification but that has long since worn away.

Anything fluoro with some rear facing reflective strips is probably OK.

The standard may be EU directive 89/686/CEE but I can't find any definitive confirmation of that.

Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: T42 on 08 October, 2017, 11:04:18 am
Yup. No headphones and a CE-approved hi-viz vest.  Law sez wear the latter outside towns after dark. I have heard of peelers stopping folk in town as well, and since they don't like to be argued with best keep it on all the time after sunset.

Re reflectors I like to have pukka front & rear ones, though mine are part & parcel of the lights anyway, and I have 3M reflective tape on the rims. It's not orange but I've never been stopped.

Incidentally, there's none of this lighting-up time = sunset+30 mins malarkey, it's bang on sunset.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 12:54:16 pm
Quote from: T42 on 08 October, 2017, 11:04:18 am
Incidentally, there's none of this lighting-up time = sunset+30 mins malarkey, it's bang on sunset.

DKUATB!  ;) ;D

Lighting-up time in the UK has been bang on sunset for several decades now...
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: T42 on 08 October, 2017, 01:32:06 pm
Ah well, I haven't lived there for several decades. :D  And anyway, other countries might still malark about.

Incidentally, is the sunset in question the time at which the sun descends below a theoretical horizon determined by where sea-level would be if you could see the sea, or below your local horizon?
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 01:48:13 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 12:54:16 pm
Lighting-up time in the UK has been bang on sunset for several decades now...

Isn't it sunset for cyclists and civil twilight for motorists?
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 08 October, 2017, 02:10:09 pm
The European Standard for Hi Viz clothing (for non-professional use) is EN1150, and specifies the amount of fluorescent and reflective material that is required. 

IMHO irtually no high viz cycle clothing sold in the UK is complaint with this (normally falls down on not enough reflective material), and when I ask in cycle shops they look at me blankly.  PBP gilets from 2015 met this requirement. 
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 02:11:10 pm
I checked. 'Hours of darkness' = half an hour after sunset to half an hour before sunrise: cars must use HEADLIGHTS.
From sunset, cars must use sidelights at least, and bicycles must have lights.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Veloman on 08 October, 2017, 02:28:08 pm
Quote from: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 08 October, 2017, 02:10:09 pm
The European Standard for Hi Viz clothing (for non-professional use) is EN1150, and specifies the amount of fluorescent and reflective material that is required. 

IMHO irtually no high viz cycle clothing sold in the UK is complaint with this (normally falls down on not enough reflective material), and when I ask in cycle shops they look at me blankly.  PBP gilets from 2015 met this requirement.

Most cheap hi-viz waistcoats or gilets meet the EN1150 requirement and are readily available from a number of stores.  I agree that cycle clothing with hi-viz material do not meet the EN1150 requirement as they are not specifically designed to do so, unlike the PBP gilets.  A lot of folk just buy a cheap hi-viz waistcoat to wear at night which is what I did on PBP as it was cooler than the PBP gilet and I was carrying a breathable waterproof anyway just in case it rained or I was cold and just popped the hi-viz waistcoat over that.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 02:29:15 pm
It seems that the CE approvedness of high visibility clothing for the sports market is not something that the retailers seem to shout about...

The only one I'm finding on amazon is This one (http://amzn.to/2hVzmes). Sure there are others, but they seem more aimed at builders, and are thus a big more baggy.

I like the look of something like This one (http://amzn.to/2yyACLt). I'm going to be carrying it more than I'm wearing it, so something that packs down small in my bags is preferred.

Are french police likely to want to see the CE approval label on a high vi? or are they more likely to take a view like the British Plod's approach to lights "We don't check that it's a standards complying light, as long as you have one" ?

J
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Philip Benstead on 08 October, 2017, 02:32:08 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 02:11:10 pm
I checked. 'Hours of darkness' = half an hour after sunset to half an hour before sunrise: cars must use HEADLIGHTS.
From sunset, cars must use sidelights at least, and bicycles must have lights.
.
For eveybodys information and please pass it on

In the UK and  has been so for a least 20 years the lighting up time in from sunset to sunrise.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Veloman on 08 October, 2017, 02:34:54 pm
Quote from: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 02:29:15 pm
Are french police likely to want to see the CE approval label on a high vi? or are they more likely to take a view like the British Plod's approach to lights "We don't check that it's a standards complying light, as long as you have one" ?

I would think as long as you are seen there might not be too many complaints.

I also know someone who took a suitable label from a cheap and nasty compliant waistcoat and had it sewn into a mesh one just in case there was a check.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 02:38:20 pm
OOI does the french Hi Vis rule fall foul of recumbents the way the British pedal reflectors one does?
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 03:02:08 pm
Quote from: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 02:38:20 pm
OOI does the french Hi Vis rule fall foul of recumbents the way the British pedal reflectors one does?

'Scuse my ignorance how do recumbents fall fowl of UK pedal reflector law?

J
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 03:14:34 pm
Quote from: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 03:02:08 pm
'Scuse my ignorance how do recumbents fall fowl of UK pedal reflector law?

Quote
Pedal Reflectors
Four are required, coloured amber and marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that one is plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each pedal.

Recumbents (if pedal reflectors were fitted) would fall foul of "front and rear" as well as "plainly visible".  Theoretically this also means that panniers, trailers, or anything else blocking the view of the reflectors isn't compliant, as well as all those clipless pedals which can't take reflectors anyway.

Pragmatically, it's never enforced, though I think they're a generally good idea because they're often the most visible part of a ninja BSOist.  I have Scotchlite on the cranks of my upwrongs to comply with the spirit, if not the letter, of the law.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 03:15:05 pm
AIUI ALL clipless systems do.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 03:22:53 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 03:15:05 pm
AIUI ALL clipless systems do.

Not the ones that have pedal reflectors (typically dual-sided SPDs).
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: SteveC on 08 October, 2017, 03:23:10 pm
Not quite all:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-pd-t400-click-r-clipless-mtb-pedals/rp-prod104618?gs=1&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE-Shopping+QLB+Product+Desktop&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid%7CsE9IfiKrv_dc%7Cpcrid%7C161850334074%7Cpkw%7C%7Cpmt%7C%7Cprd%7C376554UK (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-pd-t400-click-r-clipless-mtb-pedals/rp-prod104618?gs=1&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE-Shopping+QLB+Product+Desktop&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid%7CsE9IfiKrv_dc%7Cpcrid%7C161850334074%7Cpkw%7C%7Cpmt%7C%7Cprd%7C376554UK)

I have recently fitted these on my tourer/commuter as I wanted to change to the MTB-style flat pedal with a clip system anyway.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: hellymedic on 08 October, 2017, 04:04:38 pm
I sit corrected!
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Kim on 08 October, 2017, 04:09:44 pm
There are also crappy plastic clips that are sometimes supplied with M520s that ostensibly convert one side to platforms, which have compliant reflectors.  I assume they're intended to make bikes with SPDs legal at point of sale.

They're a bit cheesy (wouldn't survive many removals and re-fittings) and not really big enough for comfortable pedalling in normal soft shoes, but I've been using them on my hybrid for ages to make use of a set of pedals with a b0rked tension mechanism on one side.  It's occasionally handy to be able to ride not-clipped-in when dog-dodging on shared use paths and similar.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: T42 on 08 October, 2017, 05:19:21 pm
Quote from: quixoticgeek on 08 October, 2017, 02:29:15 pm
It seems that the CE approvedness of high visibility clothing for the sports market is not something that the retailers seem to shout about...

The only one I'm finding on amazon is This one (http://amzn.to/2hVzmes). Sure there are others, but they seem more aimed at builders, and are thus a big more baggy.

I like the look of something like This one (http://amzn.to/2yyACLt). I'm going to be carrying it more than I'm wearing it, so something that packs down small in my bags is preferred.

Are french police likely to want to see the CE approval label on a high vi? or are they more likely to take a view like the British Plod's approach to lights "We don't check that it's a standards complying light, as long as you have one" ?

J

This is what you mostly see here:

(http://www.pbase.com/johnewing/image/130547564.jpg)
(this happened 200 metres from the end of a 300k. Not to me, though.)

It's highly unlikely they're going to stop you and ask for a peek at the labels - in fact the only time they're liable to look closely at any kind of reflectors is if you're involved in an accident.  Same goes for lights, as long as you have them. They'll likely stomp on you for absence of lights or hi-viz gilet, though.
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: Cunobelin on 09 October, 2017, 06:07:38 pm
I thought it was France, but it was actually Spain where the "Ladies of the Night" were forced to wear HiViz when plying their trade in urban areas

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01746/Els-Alamus_1746724c.jpg)
Title: Re: French High vi rules
Post by: mattc on 16 October, 2017, 07:07:44 pm
Car lighting stuff, somewhat off-topic:

(click to show/hide)