Author Topic: Lighting etiquette for group riding  (Read 18353 times)

simonp

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #25 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:31:15 pm »
As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.


Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

For lights to be legal in the UK, they must be stamped BS6102/3, or must comply to some equivalent European-country's national standard (e.g. Germany).

I think it's worse than that. AIUI, a light can be stamped BS6012/3, and yet not be legal, because the law is an ass, and refers to a specific revision of BS6102/3, which predates LED lights. The standard was updated ages ago, yet the law still refers to the old light. They then added the stupid flashing LED rule.



wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #26 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:52:03 pm »
... because the law is an ass ...

+1  http://cars.aol.co.uk/2013/04/03/government-promises-action-on-dazzling-bicycle-lights/ (I'm now not sure whether my front's not too bright when reading this?)
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

LEE

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #27 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:54:23 pm »
Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #28 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:59:51 pm »
The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000
<i>Marmite slave</i>

simonp

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #29 on: 29 May, 2013, 05:26:11 pm »
More here:

http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Photometric-Testing-Uncovers-Arms-Race-4744051.S.229948864?qid=998d1420-c66c-4640-a765-00afbfc46e6d&goback=.gna_4744051

In particular it seems that the 70 candela limit is being questioned. It seems it should be more like 700 for a pair of dipped headlights. A German approved light would not exceed this if adjusted correctly, if the comments in the page I've linked to are accurate.


vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #30 on: 29 May, 2013, 05:29:43 pm »
If your rear light is a Magicshine MJ-818 then I will either be a) dropping you asap or if this isn't possible b) stopping to let you go on

If you commute in fog or something this is probably a great light to have.  But if I am on your wheel then I won't share that opinion

simonp

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #31 on: 29 May, 2013, 05:43:10 pm »
I've deliberately dropped a group after it was caught by riders with excessively bright dazzling rear lights who joined our group. I had to bide my time and wait for the group to miss a turn in order to have an opportunity.

LEE

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #32 on: 29 May, 2013, 05:51:22 pm »
The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000

It was De Sisti and a Dinotte 400R.  Truly bright (possibly too bright for group riding at night but gets you noticed in daylight)

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #33 on: 29 May, 2013, 08:10:34 pm »
Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.   
 

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #34 on: 29 May, 2013, 08:25:28 pm »
Good discussion, can the LEL group captains set up deth-ray sin-bin and light angels bunches on the  road?

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #35 on: 29 May, 2013, 09:10:11 pm »
Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.

I bit like these PpPete?

Started audax with LEL & SR in 2013. Currently working on fitness and trying for a RRtY in 2024. Event organiser, Arrivée photo contributor & LEL controller

Kim

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #36 on: 29 May, 2013, 10:24:28 pm »
The eye of sauron?

Kim has one of those. I tihnk it is a radbot 1000

That's the one.  I've stopped using it on group rides (except in city traffic), as for every "That's really cool - flashing, but not headache-inducing" there's a "I keep getting distracted by your sinusoidal throbbing", even with it mounted at axle-height, well below the eyeline of a following rider.  The 4DToplight is perfectly adequate in that sort of situation anyway.

I use it when I'm on my own, though, as a recumbent lacks many 'bicycle' cues when viewed from behind, and it seems like excellent insurance against accusations of invisibility.  It's also good (in super-obnoxious mode) for fog and heavy rain in daylight.


If an audaxy n+1 ever happens, I'm going to come up with a rear lighting solution consisting of a moderate brightness high-surface-area static light, with an obnoxious flashing laser of death that can be easily switched on and off from the handlebars according to need.

mattc

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #37 on: 29 May, 2013, 10:42:15 pm »
There seems to be an ongoing debate about
"just how irritating is my irritating light - I don't find them much of a problem to follow. Surely being visible to motorists is a good thing?".

What perhaps folks should bear in mind, is the experience of riding at 2am after 300km (or nx300km in the context of this thread) with 3-10 bikes up ahead, each with a different configuration of lighting, some of them vvvveryy bright, some flashing, some pulsing/gyrating/jiving.

It's a unique experience!

[Also consider a driver trying to pass this lot at 2am, and what mental state he/she may be in.]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #38 on: 29 May, 2013, 10:55:22 pm »
[Also consider a driver trying to pass this lot at 2am, and what mental state he/she may be in.]

Almost certainly a better state than the cyclists...  :-\

mattc

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #39 on: 29 May, 2013, 11:08:18 pm »
Often ... but not always, I can assure you!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #40 on: 30 May, 2013, 02:03:57 am »
Sorry to hijack this for a product question but does anyone know the brand of rear LED that emits a "frikkin deth ray" pulse every second or so?

I saw one on a ride once, in daylight, and it was very eye-catching.

I ride a lot from bright sunshine into "tree-tunnels" where it's almost dark.  One of those lights may be perfect for such situations.

Head over to TTF for discussions passim about which rear lights will get you seen on a dual carriageway in broad daylight.  I have a Lezyne Micro Drive for this purpose, others have the Exposure Flare which is supposedly a bit brighter but is not as well made.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #41 on: 30 May, 2013, 09:56:59 am »
70/700 candela = Lumens? Lux? How do you work out what you have.

I have Twin B&M Cyo's (60) both the non German legal type.(I had one legal one not,just in case of German ride) but unfortunately got sent two of the same type when the damaged ones were replaced,(Glad they were replaced so didn't complain, also not planning any German rides  ;D)

When you're too tired to continue you fall off                            

200(7) 300(4) 400(4) 600(3) 1200(1) 1400(1)

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #42 on: 30 May, 2013, 09:59:18 am »
Smart R2 has a "pulse" mode (as well as the usual "flash" mode)
2 x 1/2 watt LEDs may not qualify "as frikkin deth ray" but it's as bright as I want at the back.

I bit like these PpPete?



That's the one.

And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #43 on: 30 May, 2013, 10:12:06 am »
I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.
And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice1 mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....


1:Other saddlebags are available. Some of them even hold your lights still.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #44 on: 30 May, 2013, 10:22:02 am »
I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.
And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....


Ours don't wiggle, and both marcusjb and chrisS/fboab are likely to be miles in front of us - but two voices against is enough.  They're coming off, and will think of another option for the second rear light.

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #45 on: 30 May, 2013, 10:23:17 am »
And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.

Maybe I should rephrase that then -  don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice without additional support to stop it bouncing about;)

I guess it also depends on how much stuff you have in your Carradice - the loop on a half empty bag is going to provide a very different hanging angle to that on a full bag.

All in all, I am not convinced it is a sensible place to have a heavier light when riding in groups.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #46 on: 30 May, 2013, 10:31:22 am »
I'm inclined to disagree.
A Carradice on a Bagman, or other support, can be very stable.   A reasonably bright light hung off the loop tends to point downwards creating a big "pool" of red light on the road behind the rider.  As an addition to a light facing properly backwards I think they can be good.  I use a bit of elastic cord to stop them making a bid for freedom, but that also minimises any bounce.
And there lies the rub.

I also find wiggling Carradice1 mounted lights really irritating. No one (surely) sets out to have an irritating/overkill rear light set-up, and yet there's loads of them out there....


1:Other saddlebags are available. Some of them even hold your lights still.

I still have a light attached to the loop on my Barley but having long ago realised the legitimacy of fboab's statement it is supplemented by one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-tl-ld600-led-rear-light/

secured to the Bagman with one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-ld120500au100ld6001000-tail-light-bracket/

& one of these

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hebie-arc-j82s-sl-universal-rack-fitting-light-bracket-prod553/

I do wonder how many cyclists appreciate the visual impact of their rear light setup? Ideally you need some to ride your bike in the dark while you observe from behind.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #47 on: 30 May, 2013, 10:51:50 am »
While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset? I don't like the driver to be picking a line in shadow. Basically, if your light is doing a fine job of picking out the reflectives on my arse, it's creating an equivalently enormous shadow in front.

Thanks.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #48 on: 30 May, 2013, 04:13:16 pm »
While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset? I don't like the driver to be picking a line in shadow. Basically, if your light is doing a fine job of picking out the reflectives on my arse, it's creating an equivalently enormous shadow in front.

Thanks.

Maybe a reflective note saying 'If you can read this.....dip your F'ing headlight' could be worn on a rearward facing body part.  ;)
The older you get, the better you get, unless you are a banana.

Kim

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #49 on: 30 May, 2013, 04:32:08 pm »
While we're whinging about other-people's-lights, can I just say that if you have killah-DETH-lasers on the front of your bike, and you're sucking someone's wheel riding in a group, could you PLEASE follow at an offset?

The corollary to this is when you do ride at an offset, the person in front who moves *into* the beam.  What's that about, other than being a newbie thing?  I could understand if they moved further to the left thinking you were about to overtake...