Author Topic: Wheel building for dummies  (Read 8173 times)

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Wheel building for dummies
« on: 06 November, 2017, 08:23:50 pm »
questions, questions

wanting to do a hub swap, have the perfect pair of 32H rims one is 559 and the other 622. 

1) Am I correct that provided hubs are the same width and offset, with the same flange diameter, i can just reuse the existing spokes?
2) if (1) is not correct, I need to calc new spoke lengths and will need ERD, hub dimensions etc. Better to measure myself or use manufacturer's data?


I'm sure there will be more questions.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #1 on: 06 November, 2017, 09:14:06 pm »
My response to Q1 would be: yes if the spokes are of a reasonable quality i.e branded stainless.  As regards to Q2, I've found that manufacturers data for a given hub or rim can vary slightly depending on the year of manufacture, though it's normally good enough if you do a basic sanity check on the actual dimensions.
Most of the stuff I say is true because I saw it in a dream and I don't have the presence of mind to make up lies when I'm asleep.   Bryan Andreas

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #2 on: 07 November, 2017, 06:13:07 am »
1) Am I correct that provided hubs are the same width and offset, with the same flange diameter, i can just reuse the existing spokes?

As long as the new rims have the correct ERD, yes. Otherwise, no.

2) if (1) is not correct, I need to calc new spoke lengths and will need ERD, hub dimensions etc. Better to measure myself or use manufacturer's data?

That's something I found very tricky to measure. I prefer to use manufacturer data. Also try to calculate spoke length using at least two different calculators, as they sometimes tend to give different answers.  When I'm not sure between two lengths, I tend to buy the shorter spokes. If they happen to be really too short, I can always buy longer nipples. Too long spokes cannot be compensated for by buying shorter nipples.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #3 on: 07 November, 2017, 06:41:26 am »
Measuring hubs is easy by comparison with rims, but if the rims are built at the moment you already have the best possible measure of rim ERD; just see if the spokes are the correct length or not, adjust if necessary, and reverse-calculate the rim ERD.

cheers

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #4 on: 07 November, 2017, 10:57:17 am »
What do you define as the "correct length" out of interest? Where should the spoke end be relative to the top of the nipple?

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #5 on: 07 November, 2017, 01:26:34 pm »
IMHO you should shoot for the top of the spoke finishing within the depth of the slot of the nipple. In practice

- if the spokes are too long they poke out of the top, which is lots of work with a single-walled rim, an almost unfixable problem with a shallow double-walled rim. Nipples generally don't thread on over 1-2mm more than flush without starting to bind, which is not exactly good, but is probably less bad than it feels.

- if the spokes are too short you leave yourself open to problems such as
a) the tops of the nipples cracking off in service
b) stripping threads
c) the wheel being more difficult to build from the start (*)
d) a greater chance of spokes breaking where they enter the nipple

(*) a nipple driver with a long projection is required to get the nipples set evenly, whereas the Mk1 eyeball works perfectly (better than any nipple driver) if the spokes can come flush at the nipple slot.

cheers

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #6 on: 07 November, 2017, 08:34:31 pm »
Spoke length isn't very sensitive to minor differences in hub dimensions.  It's very sensitive to rim ERD.

If calculating spoke lengths, always round down to the nearest available length.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #7 on: 07 November, 2017, 08:49:18 pm »
I see the wheelpro calculator has been tweaked so that you should always round up, not down.
Quote
Rounding the spoke lengths
The advised lengths are the recommended minimum. You can round up by up to 2mm, which means you can always find an even or odd size spoke length. The often quoted rule for spoke rounding that says +/- 1mm does not apply to this calculator.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #8 on: 07 November, 2017, 10:13:33 pm »
In my recent (first) wheel build I was told always to measure the ERD. In my case, there was a significant difference in my measurement to the manufacturer's data.

Samuel D

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #9 on: 07 November, 2017, 10:32:59 pm »
I recently got a Mavic Open Elite rim. Mavic told me the ERD was 606 mm. In fact it was about 610 mm.

For spoke lengths, Jobst Brandt gives a formula in the back of his book, The Bicycle Wheel. I would rather plug the numbers into that than hope an online calculator is doing the same thing (especially given Somnolent’s comment above). Besides, Brandt’s book is essential reading for any wheel-building dummy. That’s why I have it! It’s a wonderful book and a pure pleasure to read.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #10 on: 07 November, 2017, 11:27:42 pm »
Brandt’s book is [...] a pure pleasure to read.

I live for his Finite Element Analysis of the humble bicycle wheel.




It is a damn good book, and my constant reference for the occasions I build. But its technical bits are scarcely bedtime reading unless you want to sort out your insomnia.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #11 on: 08 November, 2017, 01:42:48 am »
In 1980-something I had what was, at the time, 'quite a flash pocket calculator' which had a 128 step programme capacity and allowed alphanumeric display. It cost a small fortune at the time and  was, of course, more feeble in terms of computing power than that which exists in the most trivial piece of electronics these days. But I digress; I programmed this to work out spoke lengths and it was really useful. I also have a book (a thickish book with lots of tiny writing in it, that sort) with every spoke length for every build and every measured/known good rim size that I used prior to a certain date written into it.

These days I just use whichever online calculator I feel like using. They all contain 'databases' which are full of horrible errors, so I just enter the values that I have measured myself. (I wish that there was a feature whereby you could eliminate data added by idiots from that which you see but you can't have everything...) I presently quite like this one
https://leonard.io/edd/
because it allows you to enter fractional spoke crossings and other bits and pieces like that.  You can check that the maths is sensible in a previously unknown calculator by entering 'known good' dimensions and seeing that the spoke lengths are coming out correctly.

  Calculators that do the rounding for you are to be avoided IMHO; you are better off with the exact length being calculated and then to do your own approximations to make available spoke lengths fit OK.

A Brucey top-tip; spokes are actually available in 1mm increments from some sources (although you may have to look hard to find them). In addition you can build a 'symmetric wheel' ( eg with all the leading spokes 'inside' and all the trailing spokes 'outside') with all the inside spokes 1 or 2mm shorter than all the outside spokes. The effect of this (which does not produce any detectable variation in spoke tension pattern BTW) is to allow the apparent precision of spoke length selection to be within 1mm (if 2mm increments are available) or 0.5mm (if 1mm increments are available).

[BTW If you think this is a terrible idea, I'd suggest that you examine a skew-built wheel (i.e. one where the inside spokes are leading on one side and trailing on the other) with some care; you will either find that the nipples are not on the spokes quite evenly or that there is a pattern in the spoke tensions that betrays a torsional preload in the hub barrel... then have another think...]

BTW Mavic (and many other rim makers) quite often quote NSD (nipple seat diameter) as if it were really ERD (effective rim diameter), without bothering to inform you that this is really the case.  In the Lenni spoke calculator, entries in the rim database which come from manufacturer's data which has been entered thusly are usually noted as 'ERD = manufacturers seat diameter plus 3mm" or similar, which helps you to avoid screwing up in some cases at least.  Still best to measure yourself, though.

I like Brandt's book too; not only do you learn how to build wheels but you find out why which is, in essence,  what separates useful knowledge from just learning by rote.

cheers

Samuel D

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #12 on: 08 November, 2017, 01:12:31 pm »
I live for his Finite Element Analysis of the humble bicycle wheel.




It is a damn good book, and my constant reference for the occasions I build. But its technical bits are scarcely bedtime reading unless you want to sort out your insomnia.

The maths may be ignored completely, and to that end has its own section at the back. I’m talking about the sparse, elegant, remarkably clear descriptions of technical concepts in the rest of the book. Like most of us, Brandt was sometimes a bit sloppy – not to mention stroppy – in his online writing, but his book is the good Brandt distilled from the bad. If you are sufficiently technically inclined to consider building your own wheels, you will enjoy it.

Andre Jute’s review captures its brilliance well, although he overplays the maths. There is none until a short section at the very end.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #13 on: 08 November, 2017, 01:47:46 pm »
I haven't read that one, I'm using Roger Musson's book as by guide, just wanted to check a couple of things practically before applying the theory as per the book.

Thanks for all the useful tips.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #14 on: 08 November, 2017, 02:26:00 pm »
If you are sufficiently technically inclined to consider building your own wheels, you will enjoy it.

I do actually agree - and have done for 20-odd years.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #15 on: 08 November, 2017, 03:28:52 pm »
Brandt is good for all the reasons given above, with which I agree.

But for a learner who just wants to build their first wheels, however, I think Musson is differently excellent. He's easier to follow and more detailed on the the practicalities of building. Everyone should get around to reading both, of course.

If you want to really obsess over the building arts and craft, Wheel Fanatyk is the place.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #16 on: 08 November, 2017, 06:11:18 pm »
I've read both Brandt and Musson and prefer Brandt, but then I'm a mathematician by training...

Wheel Fanatyc is also useful

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #17 on: 27 November, 2017, 11:11:02 am »
I'm an engineer by training, so it's a case of understand the principles, then apply in practice (which may or may not agree with theory)

So, for these wheels I'm swapping hubs on, by combination of measurement and back calculation on the wheelpro calculator, I find an ERD that matched closely enough to the measured length of a spoke removed from each wheel.

Plugging that back into the formula for the new hubs, I get the following

Exal rim - L = 287.9mm R = 288.8mm

Mavic rim  L = 260.3mm,  R = 261.6mm

Wit the +/-1mm advice, and from practical experience, will I have a problem using 289mm for the Exal and 262mm for the Mavic as single lengths?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #18 on: 27 November, 2017, 02:47:56 pm »
some points

1) IME the wheelpro calculator produces spoke lengths that are routinely 0.5 to 1mm shorter than other spoke length calculators, hence the advice that you need to round up not round down. [I don't use this spoke calculator because in practice it is not accurate enough; I think that they have tried to allow for spoke stretch, but have not allowed for the errors that arise because of the way spokes are measured and the way they fit into the hub.]

2) the manufacturer's data for Exal rims is frequently in error. They say ERD but IME they really mean NSD.

3) rims vary by batch anyway

So my advice is to get the rims in your hand, measure them carefully, and then worry about spoke lengths. Use a different spoke length calculator.

You don't say which model Exal rim you are planning to use, so how you expect anyone to comment on specific spoke lengths is a mystery to me.

With the typical errors arising from the use of wheelpro and manufacturers NSD figures, you could easily be ~3mm short on spoke lengths.

cheers

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #19 on: 27 November, 2017, 04:01:13 pm »
NSD?

I'm not asking anyone to calculate a length for me, as they'd need to know both hub and rim, I was asking for a comment on the rounding I proposed.

Which spoke length calculator would you recommend?

Thanks
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #20 on: 27 November, 2017, 05:54:07 pm »
NSD?

BTW Mavic (and many other rim makers) quite often quote NSD (nipple seat diameter) as if it were really ERD (effective rim diameter), without bothering to inform you that this is really the case.  In the Lenni spoke calculator, entries in the rim database which come from manufacturer's data which has been entered thusly are usually noted as 'ERD = manufacturers seat diameter plus 3mm" or similar, which helps you to avoid screwing up in some cases at least.  Still best to measure yourself, though

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #21 on: 27 November, 2017, 06:12:05 pm »
I'm not asking anyone to calculate a length for me, as they'd need to know both hub and rim, I was asking for a comment on the rounding I proposed.

Slightly too long is better than slightly too short, so rounding up is fine.

(tbh There's so much error introduced by the various measurements and calculations that buying spokes for a one-off build is always a bit of a stab in the dark. But generally there's enough adjustment while tensioning that being in the right ballpark is good enough)

Samuel D

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #22 on: 27 November, 2017, 06:28:34 pm »
What are the sources of error if you measure the rim yourself? When I did that, Brandt’s formula in the back of his book (based on verifiable trigonometry, not the black-box presumptions of online spoke-length calculators) produced precisely the expected result. I don’t see why it wouldn’t always do that.

Measure the rim. Someone else’s claims, including those of the manufacturer, are not to be relied on. With a known-good ERD, the rest is easy. Unfortunately this may mean making two orders if you’re buying online: one for the rim and another for the spokes.

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #23 on: 27 November, 2017, 10:04:42 pm »
it is a little unsettling to rely upon 'black box presumptions' until they are proven accurate. 

A 3D trig formula that works quite well (such as Brandt's which is a statement of the Cosine law in 3D, and is identical to what I used before I ever read Brandt's book BTW) actually contains approximations that largely cancel one another out, to do with spoke stretch, the way spokes are measured, the way the rim deforms, and the way the spokes fit into the hub.

I recently reviewed the potentially murky world of online spoke calculators, and trialled several of them using a set of rim and hub dimensions that would reveal if there was likely to be a significant error or not. The review is here

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=118702

along with lots of links that you might find interesting or useful.

To my surprise most of the spoke length calculators gave very similar (if not nigh-on identical) answers. But one of the popular ones, the wheelpro one, consistently gave slightly shorter values than the others.  Using that calculator with 14g spokes they would be about 0.5mm shorter than with other (reliable) calculators and with skinnier spokes the discrepancy could easily be 1mm.

The bottom line is that if you use a particular calculator (that does not use gross approximations that you cannot see) and you measure your parts in a consistent fashion, you will find a way of getting spoke lengths out that please you. How you go about rounding your answers for the best will vary with the measurement technique and spoke calculator used.

I personally like the Edd calculator, but

a) it gives exactly the same answers as several others do and
b) I disagree with the advice (given on the FAQ page) that 'too short is better than too long'; IMHO, in most cases it isn't.

The best choice of spoke calculator is also dependant on which features you find useful. I will use some spoke calculators (that I normally don't) if I want to work out things that are not supported in my favourite calculator, such as tension balance in wheels with different crossings each side, for example.

cheers
 

Samuel D

Re: Wheel building for dummies
« Reply #24 on: 28 November, 2017, 08:00:16 am »
Hey, nice work on the calculator reviews, Brucey.