Author Topic: Are DCR's own hubs any good?  (Read 5068 times)

Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« on: 21 June, 2018, 10:18:21 am »
Am starting to think about hubs for my new road bike build (at least the rear, I might use a Campag one I have for the front), was looking through a list of " the best road hubs in the world" on the DCR wheels website, but all those are pretty expensive, however I also noticed that DCR also make their own (much cheaper) hubs - are these any good? They seem very light at least (295g a pair): https://dcrwheels.co.uk/products/dcr-components/dcr-hubs/

They use  ABEC 5 TPI bearings and claim to be well-sealed.

Am probably looking for 32H/32H front (not radial)/rear in silver.

BTW I don't mind rear hubs with a loud freewheel (well maybe not Chris King "stuka bomber" loud...), I quite like the sound the freewheel the Hope rear hub makes on my tourer, saves using the bell so much :-)
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #1 on: 21 June, 2018, 10:20:40 am »
I think they are Bitex

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #2 on: 21 June, 2018, 10:25:34 am »
I think they are Bitex

I'm just going on what the DCR wheels website says, perhaps they've changed to TPI? - this is what it says about the front hub: "Two 6900 bearings are used here, made by TPI and are ABEC 5" rand for the the rear hub: "The quality of the seals is very good on them and they have ABEC 5 TPI bearings again 2×6902 and 2x 6802"
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #3 on: 21 June, 2018, 10:34:03 am »
Would also be interested in any other suggestions for road bike hubs - need to be silver, preferably 32h/32H, 130mm rear, 100mm front (not for disc brakes)

Mercian suggested Miche, though have had mixed reports about those hubs.

They also suggested Royce as a high-end option, but £300 is quite a lot for a rear hub...

There's also the Hope RS4, I have a 36H 135mm version on my touring bike and have been pretty happy with it: https://www.totalcycling.com/en/Hope-RS4-Campagnolo-Rear-Hub---130mm-QR/m-22790.aspx
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #4 on: 21 June, 2018, 10:45:21 am »
The hubs are made by Bitex

Torslanda

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Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #5 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:03:18 am »
'Quality' hub is a moveable feast. You need to decide - as ever - what you want.

With a fastidious maintenance regime almost any hub will be reliable. Cartridge bearings are precise and roll smoothly but have tiny ball bearings in them. If the weather gets at them they become horrible very quickly. New bearings usually restores the performance but you're reliant on your LBS - or wherever you break down - having the correct items in stock if you want a quick turnaround.

Conventional ball bearing hubs can be serviced/fettled in the wild if necessary and only something like a broken axle will immobilise your bike.

ANY hub that you buy will almost certainly need weatherproofing before use. Of course, none of this matters at all because SHINY!
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #6 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:13:53 am »
The hubs are made by Bitex

Ah, I see, I thought you meant the bearings. Are Bitex hubs any good?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #7 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:26:43 am »
the problem with hubs is that the devil is in the detail, and without a lot of time and effort spent on actually verifying such details, the likely properties of a given hub can only be inferred from other things such as reputation, cost, etc. which are (IME) not 100% reliable indications.

So for example many times I have encountered a set of hubs made with cartridge bearings inside them and they seem to be OK. But when more closely examined, or subject to actual use, the flaws become more evident.

Thus common faults with temptingly lightweight hubs are

- bad materials selection; it is tempting to use a high strength aluminium alloy for the hubshell. This is fine until it sees the glorious UK weather at which point its reduced corrosion resistance may become apparent. In particular exposure to winter road salt can make many hubs start to crack up when they would be fine in dry/summer use.
- weak freehub bodies; aluminium freehub bodies are just not reliable enough in many uses
- weak freewheel design; pawls that have aluminium seatings are not strong enough in many uses
- weak axle design; if the freehub body runs via its own cartridge bearings on the axle itself then the axle loading is highly unfavourable. The axle needs to be made oversize to avoid flexing/breakage in some uses and this comes with the penalty of smaller (basically feeble) bearings inside the freehub body.
- poor bearing selection. Hub suppliers/manufacturers tend witter on endlessly about ABEC ratings and a load of other things that don't really matter but keep quiet about the fact that they have usually selected bearings with a grease fill and grease type that is appropriate for spinning at 10000rpm in dry-ish conditions, not 1/50th of this speed in  grotty weather.
- poor machining tolerances/bearing selection. All too commonly I find (say) bearings that are toleranced for a 10um interference fit installed in a housing with a 100um interference fit. The inevitable result is that the bearing life is very short; the slightest damage to the bearing surfaces betrays this poor fit by making the hubs feel terrible. Often once the 'bad bearing' is removed (and relieved of its monster preload) it usually feels OK.
- bad design. All QR hubs compress their axles (and/or spacers etc) when the QR is tightened. In some hubs this is allowed for (eg by having the bearing(s) a sliding fit in the hubshell) but in many it is not; if you tighten the QR using washers in place of dropouts you may feel a hub become mysteriously bindy (and a tiny difference can mean a huge preload in a new hub with smooth bearing BTW). This means that even if the hub manufacturer has not fallen at the other hurdles en route, you can overload the hub bearings by simply installing the hub in the bike using the QR.

Most cartridge bearing hubs feel OK when they are new but very few of them do not suffer from one (or many) of the above faults.

Call me a BOF if you like but I know that I can reliably set up a pair of cup and cone hubs so that they will be smoother for longer than pretty much any cartridge bearing hub.  The bearings are almost invariably intrinsically lower rolling resistance (under load) and are stronger, having more, larger, rolling elements in them. It is no accident that the toppermost hubs from campag and dura-ace still use cup and cone bearings; they are (when made properly) a better arrangement for a bicycle hub than the alternatives.  If the hub is laid out in the shimano style (i.e. so that the bending loads in the axle are minimised by having the RH hub bearing built into the end of the freehub body) the result can be an immensely strong and durable rear hub. Even relatively modest hubs made in this way that come from Taiwan are capable of lasting very well (when set up/lubed correctly) and they can have bearing surfaces that are ground and polished so are also very smooth.

On a lightweight machine you may not need this strength and durability (in the short term) and indeed it may come with a small weight penalty. But my experience is that once set up correctly, you will spend far less time down the line messing about with such hubs than with many alternatives.

cheers



Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #8 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:31:37 am »
'Quality' hub is a moveable feast. You need to decide - as ever - what you want.

Sure. I'm less bothered about weight, more bothered about quality of bearings and overall construction and reliability. My first Hope rear hub did develop a crack in the hub shell after about 3 years, but Hope did replace it free of charge (also put on a steel cassette body for free, as the original had become badly notched - this was with a Shimano body - forgot to mention the rear hub body for this bike will need to be Campagnolo cassette-compatible), also had to replace the bearings two or three times over 9 years - other than that, it was fine, though. Mercian did seem to think the anodising on Hope hubs was quite fragile, though I can't say I've noticed.

If it makes a difference, the bike in question will be for spring/summer use only - not as an all-weathers commuter like my tourer, although obviously it can rain at any time of the year in the UK!

With a fastidious maintenance regime almost any hub will be reliable. Cartridge bearings are precise and roll smoothly but have tiny ball bearings in them.

Doesn't the size of bearings also depend somewhat on the size of the hub body near the flange? This is pretty large on the Hope RS4 hub, for example, I think to allow for larger bearings. But yes, for a similar sized hub body, there is more space for larger bearings on a non-cartridge bearing hub

If the weather gets at them they become horrible very quickly. New bearings usually restores the performance but you're reliant on your LBS - or wherever you break down - having the correct items in stock if you want a quick turnaround.

Conventional ball bearing hubs can be serviced/fettled in the wild if necessary and only something like a broken axle will immobilise your bike.

I've never serviced a loose bearing hub before and am pretty inept as a bike mechanic, how straightforward is it to maintain such hubs?

ANY hub that you buy will almost certainly need weatherproofing before use.

How do you weatherproof a hub? Pack more grease in? Wouldn't that only apply to loose-bearing hubs? Also I thought most cartridge bearings had weather seals?

Of course, none of this matters at all because SHINY!

Obviously SHINY :-)
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #9 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:11:54 pm »
My thoughts are that it is reasonable to assume that hubs supplied by independent wheel builders would typically be better than average as they have a reputation to protect.


Of course, you could always email DCR wheels and ask them how their hubs compare to others they sell.

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #10 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:26:30 pm »

ANY hub that you buy will almost certainly need weatherproofing before use.

How do you weatherproof a hub? Pack more grease in? Wouldn't that only apply to loose-bearing hubs? Also I thought most cartridge bearings had weather seals?

With few exceptions the seal type, bearing specification and grease fill chosen by manufacturers of 'sealed bearing hubs' is a long way from being optimised for the task in hand.

To make a typical cartridge bearing hub last longer

1) remove the bearings (which NB may damage them)
2) replace the bearings with ones of the correct tolerance/specification (in many cases)
3) remove the inner seals from the bearings
4) fill the hub with a proper lubricant (eg land rover front swivel SFG )
5) refit the bearings
6) check that the QR loading doesn't preload the hub bearings
7) enjoy.

To make a cup and cone bearing hub last longer
1) remove the LH cone and locknut
2) check the RH cone and locknut are properly tight against one another (use threadlock if you have it)
3) lube the bearings with lots of SFG
4) adjust the bearings so that there is a little free play that just disappears when the QR us used to tighten the wheel in the frame
5) enjoy

The latter requires one or two cone spanners and a pot of SFG. With practice (and a hub vice) you can set up most hubs in a few minutes this way.

BTW I don't quite understand why you are insistent on using a campag freehub body; this is only available in hub designs that are intrinsically weaker than is possible with shimano-compatible ones, and the latter can always be fitted with a respaced cassette so that it will work with campag sprocket spacing. There is vastly more choice in shimano-splined cassettes too.

cheers




Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #11 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:34:07 pm »
Is there any difference between 11 speed cassettes of various makes?  I understood road 11 speed to essentially be mix and match for cassettes (and I've heard of Campag being mixed with Sram and Shimano without bother, though those were on TT systems)?

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #12 on: 21 June, 2018, 01:55:08 pm »
Is there any difference between 11 speed cassettes of various makes?  I understood road 11 speed to essentially be mix and match for cassettes (and I've heard of Campag being mixed with Sram and Shimano without bother, though those were on TT systems)?

there are at least four different pitches for 11s cassettes

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycles/Maintenance_and_Repair/Gear-changing_Dimensions

but some of them are close enough that (with all new parts elsewhere) they work OK

Note also that there are different freehub bodies that accept different 11s cassettes.

In addition most manufacturers 'do something' mid-cassette to help a potentially baulky shift (typically at the ramp mismatch, e.g. where the sprockets transition from having two ramps to three) along. The 'something' can be variable pull in the shifter, or variable spacing in the cassette.

For example in shimano 9s, I think the MTB shifters have fractionally different cable pull on some shifts than the road shifters, because the ramp  mismatch is positioned differently in MTB cassettes vs road ones.

I have not got to the bottom of what differences exist in 11s systems; suffice it to say that you can in many cases ignore them to start with but they may (when everything starts to get a bit worn) represent the likely point at which the shifting will start to get a bit hit and miss.

cheers

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #13 on: 21 June, 2018, 02:17:13 pm »
Is there any difference between 11 speed cassettes of various makes?  I understood road 11 speed to essentially be mix and match for cassettes (and I've heard of Campag being mixed with Sram and Shimano without bother, though those were on TT systems)?


You can use Campagnolo, Sram and Shimano 11sp quite happily. Sram and Shimano have always been compatible. Campagnolo not, but in 11sp it is close enough to function.

Shimano works best with Shimano chains, cassettes and chainring because of the ramping, tooth profiles etc.


As for Bitex hubs....they are a good budget choice. On a par or maybe slightly better quality than their main rebadge rival, Novatec. I have 3 of them. No issues with them, although none of them have seen mega miles. 

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #14 on: 21 June, 2018, 02:27:36 pm »
there are at least four different pitches for 11s cassettes

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycles/Maintenance_and_Repair/Gear-changing_Dimensions

I've just checked a Shimano MTB cassette I have handy and it measures nearer the 3.7mm road dimensions than the unsourced 3.9mm claimed there.

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #15 on: 21 June, 2018, 02:50:22 pm »

ANY hub that you buy will almost certainly need weatherproofing before use.

How do you weatherproof a hub? Pack more grease in? Wouldn't that only apply to loose-bearing hubs? Also I thought most cartridge bearings had weather seals?

With few exceptions the seal type, bearing specification and grease fill chosen by manufacturers of 'sealed bearing hubs' is a long way from being optimised for the task in hand.

To make a typical cartridge bearing hub last longer

1) remove the bearings (which NB may damage them)
2) replace the bearings with ones of the correct tolerance/specification (in many cases)
3) remove the inner seals from the bearings
4) fill the hub with a proper lubricant (eg land rover front swivel SFG )
5) refit the bearings
6) check that the QR loading doesn't preload the hub bearings
7) enjoy.

To make a cup and cone bearing hub last longer
1) remove the LH cone and locknut
2) check the RH cone and locknut are properly tight against one another (use threadlock if you have it)
3) lube the bearings with lots of SFG
4) adjust the bearings so that there is a little free play that just disappears when the QR us used to tighten the wheel in the frame
5) enjoy

The latter requires one or two cone spanners and a pot of SFG. With practice (and a hub vice) you can set up most hubs in a few minutes this way.

Well if I could find a nice NOS Record 9/10 speed rear hub at a not insane price I would be tempted to try a loose bearing hub :-)

Quote
BTW I don't quite understand why you are insistent on using a campag freehub body; this is only available in hub designs that are intrinsically weaker than is possible with shimano-compatible ones, and the latter can always be fitted with a respaced cassette so that it will work with campag sprocket spacing. There is vastly more choice in shimano-splined cassettes too.

Because I don't really want to have to mess about with using different spacers and the choice doesn't seem *that* limited for 10-speed Campagnolo-compatible hubs, or are there specific hubs you have in mind that you would otherwise recommend if not limited by a Campagnolo freehub body? If so, which ones?

Also, I thought because of the ramping etc. Campagnolo chains would run better on Campagnolo cassettes etc.? Although I guess I could use a different chain..
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #16 on: 21 June, 2018, 03:57:29 pm »


Well if I could find a nice NOS Record 9/10 speed rear hub at a not insane price I would be tempted to try a loose bearing hub :-)

yes they are nice hubs but you are still left with (rather small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that has a reputation for cracking. There is also a question mark over the contact angle of the RH hub bearing too.

Quote
Because I don't really want to have to mess about with using different spacers and the choice doesn't seem *that* limited for 10-speed Campagnolo-compatible hubs, or are there specific hubs you have in mind that you would otherwise recommend if not limited by a Campagnolo freehub body? If so, which ones?

Also, I thought because of the ramping etc. Campagnolo chains would run better on Campagnolo cassettes etc.? Although I guess I could use a different chain..

OK I guess if you are not planning to use 30T or over there may be enough choice in campag cassettes. But concerning other hubs yes there are quite a few hubs which I know to be strong and durable which are available in shimano-only.

Re the spacers yes that is a concern and some of the advantage in cassette choice is taken away if you can only use carrier-less cassettes. But otherwise a few minutes with a pair of scissors and a couple of old coke cans will generate enough extra shim spacers to make a shimano-spaced cassette into a campag-spaced one. You only need one set of shims/spacers anyway; they can be transferred to a new cassette.

I think that campag 10s chain works well on other (eg shimano) 10s sprockets; there may be a marginal advantage in having a matched set in some cases, but certainly not all.

cheers
 

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #17 on: 21 June, 2018, 04:55:11 pm »


Well if I could find a nice NOS Record 9/10 speed rear hub at a not insane price I would be tempted to try a loose bearing hub :-)

yes they are nice hubs but you are still left with (rather small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that has a reputation for cracking. There is also a question mark over the contact angle of the RH hub bearing too.

I meant the pre-cartridge bearing sort... the later ones are only available in black in any case.

Because I don't really want to have to mess about with using different spacers and the choice doesn't seem *that* limited for 10-speed Campagnolo-compatible hubs, or are there specific hubs you have in mind that you would otherwise recommend if not limited by a Campagnolo freehub body? If so, which ones?

Also, I thought because of the ramping etc. Campagnolo chains would run better on Campagnolo cassettes etc.? Although I guess I could use a different chain..

OK I guess if you are not planning to use 30T or over there may be enough choice in campag cassettes. But concerning other hubs yes there are quite a few hubs which I know to be strong and durable which are available in shimano-only.

Well Campag do (or did, but still seems to be available) a 12-30 10-speed cassette (Centaur). If going for a triple I might not even need such a large rear cog anyway.

What other (Shimano-only) hubs do you recommend, out of interest?
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #18 on: 21 June, 2018, 05:32:26 pm »


Well if I could find a nice NOS Record 9/10 speed rear hub at a not insane price I would be tempted to try a loose bearing hub :-)

yes they are nice hubs but you are still left with (rather small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that has a reputation for cracking. There is also a question mark over the contact angle of the RH hub bearing too.

I meant the pre-cartridge bearing sort... the later ones are only available in black in any case.

even the sort with cup and cone bearings in the main part of the hub have (small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that cracks too often.



Quote
What other (Shimano-only) hubs do you recommend, out of interest?

If you can find some NOS then FH-6500 and HB-6500 make a nice-looking hubset



decals wipe off with thinners, BTW.

cheers

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #19 on: 21 June, 2018, 06:43:10 pm »


Well if I could find a nice NOS Record 9/10 speed rear hub at a not insane price I would be tempted to try a loose bearing hub :-)

yes they are nice hubs but you are still left with (rather small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that has a reputation for cracking. There is also a question mark over the contact angle of the RH hub bearing too.

I meant the pre-cartridge bearing sort... the later ones are only available in black in any case.

even the sort with cup and cone bearings in the main part of the hub have (small, weak) cartridge bearings inside a freehub body that cracks too often.



Quote
What other (Shimano-only) hubs do you recommend, out of interest?

If you can find some NOS then FH-6500 and HB-6500 make a nice-looking hubset



decals wipe off with thinners, BTW.

Thanks Brucey!
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #20 on: 21 June, 2018, 07:15:26 pm »
there are at least four different pitches for 11s cassettes

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycles/Maintenance_and_Repair/Gear-changing_Dimensions

I've just checked a Shimano MTB cassette I have handy and it measures nearer the 3.7mm road dimensions than the unsourced 3.9mm claimed there.

I just checked an SLX one and (to the nearest 0.05mm) it seemed like 3.85mm pitch. I agree that not all the measurements on that page are 100% accurate; for example it seems like Dyna-sys 10s is not 1.2 shift ratio, for example.

cheers

Re: Are DCR's own hubs any good?
« Reply #21 on: 21 June, 2018, 11:30:07 pm »
I was good not to suggest Ultegra, but a dicey got there first and explained why:)