Author Topic: Winter commuter ?  (Read 4669 times)

Winter commuter ?
« on: 03 September, 2018, 01:00:33 pm »
Have had various bikes  sun solo ,  merlin ATB carrera subway 8 , raleigh tourer and now raleigh cross  and an old raleigh maverick with sturmley archers gears  and use them all on various paths , railway and canal and road  . all get really bad after a weeks commuting . what steps can i take to mitigate the cleaning?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #1 on: 03 September, 2018, 01:22:23 pm »
Sealed bearings throughout, mudguards with generous clearance.  The dirt reaches a kind of equilibrium eventually; I once didn't wash my commuter for 2 years, although it had a new chain in that time.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #2 on: 03 September, 2018, 02:27:08 pm »
seals and/or lube ports on all the main bearings.

Mudguards, the wider and deeper the better. With bigger clearances, more crud can escape sideways so there is a bit of a tradeoff there.

Most importantly a decent front mudflap, the closer to the ground the better.

My hack bike lives outdoors all year round. The rain rinses some of the dirt and most of the winter road salt off it. Obviously it looks terrible but then no-one wants to nick it either. Bike works well, and that is the main thing.

BTW the bike is basically like a touring bike with cantis and dropped bars, but has fairly lightweight rims and tyres on. It is also fitted with an IGH and hub generator/lightset. Weighs about 28lbs ready to rock. Chain (1/8", fully bushed) is oiled occasionally, tyres are pumped occasionally, and about once a year various other bits get attention as needs be. Anything that looks like it is going badly rusty gets a smear of waxoyl and if possible it is replaced with a more corrosion resistant part when the opportunity arises.

Having been doing this for some years now I would say with some confidence that the rate of corrosion generally is a fair bit lower than if the bike is stowed (unwashed) under cover when it is not being used. Winter road salt is deadly; the mudguards keep the worst of it off to start with and it rains often enough that it doesn't get a chance to linger if the bike gets left outside.

cheers


Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #3 on: 04 September, 2018, 07:34:18 am »
Some really good pointers there, Thanks . Will have to get motivated to attend a maintenance course as not really done any " spannering" on the bikes  did rely on the LBS it was only a 100 yards away now the owner has retired:(  . Considered rubber painting various parts of the frame  and enclosing the bearings and seals with shrinkable tube to stop water and muck, so a quick blast/spray from a hose would clean it .

Chris N

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #4 on: 04 September, 2018, 08:29:48 am »
Fixed gear with hydraulic disc up front and no back brake.  Square taper BB to keep the bearings out of the spray.  Full mudguards with a long wide flap on the front to protect the back wheel.  Stainless steel bolts everywhere and use nickel plated chains.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #5 on: 04 September, 2018, 12:09:39 pm »
Mineral oil hydraulics.  Glycol with no expansion vessel (Avid Elixir) is the highest-maintenance piece of junk you can hang off your bike.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #6 on: 04 September, 2018, 12:45:22 pm »
chris n is near the mark ,but can i get another N+1 passed the missus?

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #7 on: 04 September, 2018, 12:52:16 pm »
the most common mineral oil hydraulics are shimano ones.   They work really well (especially considering the price) but they are IMHO not at all suitable for winter use; the caliper bores corrode when exposed to winter road salt and then they start to leak. I have seen multiple failures of this type.

I absolutely agree that Elixirs are not wonderful brakes but they do (of course, a 'open' hydraulic system cannot work without one) have an expansion vessel, just not in the usual way. In the diagram below

the rather blobby looking part in #3 (to the right of the diagram) is an expansion bladder.

Most MCs that work in an 'open' system but don't have an obvious reservoir have a similar expansion bladder, e.g. various tektro models etc.

cheers

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #8 on: 04 September, 2018, 12:58:34 pm »
is there a lightweight chain cover for a fixie like Raleigh roadsters use to have


Kim

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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #9 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:08:52 pm »
is there a lightweight chain cover for a fixie like Raleigh roadsters use to have

You could put some cable ducting over it, like Dahon do.


Chris N

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #10 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:14:24 pm »
Wouldn't recommend that on a fixed gear - the thought of what might happen if it gets dragged into the cog/ring makes me uneasy.  Hebie Chainglider is probably more suitable.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #11 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:17:20 pm »
I've never actually seen the split ducting chain protection get misaligned though.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Chris N

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #12 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:33:07 pm »
Ah, the ducting goes round with the chain rather than floating in place. :thumbsup:

Kim

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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #13 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:38:51 pm »
Wouldn't recommend that on a fixed gear - the thought of what might happen if it gets dragged into the cog/ring makes me uneasy.  Hebie Chainglider is probably more suitable.

The ducting gets eaten, presumably.

Kim

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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #14 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:39:27 pm »
Ah, the ducting goes round with the chain rather than floating in place. :thumbsup:

Yeah, it's weirdly hypnotic.

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #15 on: 04 September, 2018, 02:44:57 pm »
The Dahon thing is the Biologic FreeDrive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KjNAPAdtGw

Min 17T sprocket at the rear.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #16 on: 04 September, 2018, 04:10:32 pm »


Round here the main concern is salt from the road, I'm running a steel bike, so I'm paranoid of rust. My hack: Get one of those plant spray things, the sort with a handle on top that you pump up and down, and a hose you point at the plant. I have an 8L one. I keep it where I store my bike. Get back from a ride. 2 mins to rinse down the bike. Washing off the salt. Because it's self contained, and very portable, it doesn't require all the faff a garden hose or pressure washer does.

I keep just water in mine, but you can add a few drops of your favourite detergent if you want.

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #17 on: 04 September, 2018, 04:17:09 pm »
is there a lightweight chain cover for a fixie like Raleigh roadsters use to have

You could put some cable ducting over it, like Dahon do.



nice idea ( I first saw it circa 1984) but according to the LBS who sold the first ones local to me, what I saw on several parked bikes in the very first winter wasn't unusual; after a short time the ducting just fills up with (salty) water and the chain rots at a truly ferocious pace.  I have never seen chains so rusty that were still attached to a bike, in fact.

I can see the attraction for a folder though; you don't get chain grease on you or other things so badly.

If you really want to protect your chain, fit a proper chaincase, eg one made by Hesling.

Main snag with these is that they don't clear a conventional RH crank with a forged spider (as you might choose to use on a fixed gear) and the chainsets they do work with are not brilliant quality; they are not perfectly concentric and the swaged connection to the chainwheel can fail in fixed gear use. they are OK for IGHs and seem to survive coaster brakes too.

cheers


Kim

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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #18 on: 04 September, 2018, 05:07:58 pm »
Round here the main concern is salt from the road, I'm running a steel bike, so I'm paranoid of rust. My hack: Get one of those plant spray things, the sort with a handle on top that you pump up and down, and a hose you point at the plant. I have an 8L one. I keep it where I store my bike. Get back from a ride. 2 mins to rinse down the bike. Washing off the salt. Because it's self contained, and very portable, it doesn't require all the faff a garden hose or pressure washer does.

I keep just water in mine, but you can add a few drops of your favourite detergent if you want.

Is that any good against Proper Mud™?  As I'm lacking an outside tap (or indeed an indoor tap that will take a hose adaptor without spraying water everywhere), but have a 5l sprayer for dosing the Cyclists' Lawn™ with agent orange, I'll have to give it a go...

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #19 on: 04 September, 2018, 06:23:59 pm »
Is that any good against Proper Mud™?

IME it depends on quite how claggy the mud is, but on a narrowish spray setting it's certainly a useful adjunct to a brush; I use one on the rare occasions I wash my bike...

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #20 on: 04 September, 2018, 06:51:38 pm »
fastidious MTBers I knew used to carry a 5l 'ASL killaspray' around in the boot of their cars, so that the worst of the mud could be rinsed off the bike before the car boot got dirty. When freshly applied, all kinds of mud and road dirt is much easier to remove.

If you finish off a rinse with a spray of something (like GT85) then the next coating of crud won't stick so well either.

cheers


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #21 on: 05 September, 2018, 07:25:20 am »
We used to thoroughly grease/ heavily oil the chain before fitting the ducting. It didn't seem to rust then.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #22 on: 05 September, 2018, 11:28:43 am »
We used to thoroughly grease/ heavily oil the chain before fitting the ducting. It didn't seem to rust then.

There are lubes that are fairly salt-water resistant, and I guess you could use a heavier/stickier one inside the ducting with fewer issues than normal. I suppose it varies with the amount of salt there is on the roads too. Hereabouts there is enough salt that, quite often, a chain with summer lube on it can be ridden once and then it will go rusty. 

One of the places that winter bikes rot is on the tops of the chainstays, around the brace; I think salty muck gets carried around the tyre and some of it ends up on the tops of the chainstays where it can cause severe corrosion. I have seen several frames corrode through altogether at this point and when building up a winter bike my SOP is now to apply lots of tape to the frame in that area; this keeps the corrosion at bay fairly well. You can use waxoyl on a bike that is already built up, but this is messy and needs to be reapplied every year.

The same route throws some crud from the wheel onto the chain, even with good mudguards and the ducting fitted; this turns the lube within the ducting into (fairly/very corrosive) grinding paste. (BTW I have toyed with the idea of adding an additional shield between the chainstay and the mudguard, so as to protect the chain/chainstay better from crud coming from the back wheel, much as a very deeply valanced mudguard might do; maybe this could protect the chain well enough to make the ducting work better; it will still fill up with rainwater though.....)

Part of the trouble is that, if commuting, one is often riding on freshly gritted roads and at the edge of the road there are quite large chunks of salt that may have not have dissolved yet. These get thrown around and stick to anything that is, er,  sticky. When these start to dissolve, the brine generated is the highest strength possible (i.e. a fully saturated solution) and this has maximum potential for corrosion and breaking down almost any lube.

A chain inside a proper chaincase is obviously fairly well protected. An exposed chain can operate in a 'total loss' mode with regular oiling; surplus  oil gets flung off the chain and this carries away (corrosive) crud that would otherwise stick to it. My MO (when I can be bothered) is to (over) oil the chain, ride a short distance (to get the oil into the chain fairly well), and then to wipe the chain with some tissues.  However in the depths of  winter it is more likely that the chain will just be oiled only. This is messy enough with an IGH but really it is too messy with a derailleur; the net result is usually that the gaps between the sprockets fill up with crud....

I am slightly blasé about the chains I use on my hack bike IGH; they are pretty good chains in absolute terms, but they cost just £5 retail. The IGH sprockets I use cost about £2.50, and a steel chainring will 'do' about a dozen chains or so. Thus there isn't a very strong incentive for me to pamper the thing....

cheers

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #23 on: 05 September, 2018, 11:30:55 am »
My neighbour has a proper Dutch steel bike with a SA 3 speed, with a really tough fully protective chain case. He cycles to work in central London every day rain or shine. I'll have to post a photo, it's probably about twice my age.
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Kim

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Re: Winter commuter ?
« Reply #24 on: 05 September, 2018, 11:46:58 am »
I found that nickel-plated chains were worthwhile for my winter bike.  The use-case where it gets covered in salty wet crud, brought into the dry and then not touched for several days was causing budget chains to rust solid where they'd probably be okay if the bike wasn't prone to going so long between being used.

The Brompton is a particularly annoying special case.  Even without derailleur gears you've still got to have the tensioner, which clogs up easily, and the entire back end of a Brompton is a crud-magnet.  At least with a steel sprocket and chainring I don't have to care about wear particularly.