Is it the end of cash?

[Jaded]

Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.

In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.

Not true. Barter relies on the double coincidence of wants. It's all well and good me trying to barter beaver skins for a meal from you, but if you don't want beaver skins, the trade isn't going to happen. In a local community what would happen instead is that you give me a meal, and I owe you one, so maybe 6 months later in the autumn you come to me for a nice fur to make a hat for the winter. Debt repayed.

In the beginning there was debt. Then barter where the double coincidence of wants allows. Then coinage as a way of moving value and debt. Then just promises. Take out a tenner from your wallet. Look at it? What's it worth?

The answer is either ten pounds. Or nothing. If you look closely it says "promise to pay the bearer to the sum of ten pounds" signed chief cashier of the bank of England. It's worth ten pounds because we all accept that it's worth ten pounds, but more crucially, because you can pay the your taxes with it. The UK government can never default on a debt denominated in pounds as it can always print more of them, because they have both no actual value, and the value we decide to give them. Modern money is basically a shared delusion. Bit coin, and other cryptocurrency even more so. That's just a massive multiplayer proof of greater fool theory.

To preempt some replies like: Right, QG you're talking bollocks again give us some citations! Start with "debt, the first 5000 years" by David Graeber. Then move on to "The deficit myth" by Stephanie Kelton.

Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.

A cashless society, is a surveillance society.

J

Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah.

[cygnet]

Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.

Your club card has been about surveillance of your buying habits since the last millennium.

J

I don't have one. The price discounts for card holders advertised directly on the shelves are new here.

[Kim]

The price discounts advertised for card holders directly on the shelves are new here.

Yes, those piss me off.

[Mr Larrington]

Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.

Noticed a label quoting price and “Nectar price” in Mr Sainsbury’s House of Toothy Comestibles yesterday.

[readingjohn]

The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.

Don't know about other festivals, but at CAMRA beer festivals where they use this system, you can get a refund for unused tokens, or donate the value to charity - so not a rip-off. The major advantage is a single place where cash is handled, rather than at every bar location, which greatly simplifies security.

[quixoticgeek]

Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah.

Please to be elaborating.

J

[grams]

The (alleged) origins of the Tesco Clubcard are weirder than you can possibly imagine:
https://twitter.com/mattleys/status/1638247147383451654

[andrewc]

I've just been to the Co-Op.  They are starting to roll out "Member Prices".   Only a limited number of items at first. 


https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2023/04/co-op-member-prices/


Moan.  I always try to use the manned tills rather than self service, but it seems to be the case that the staff avoid serving people.  They are all busy filling carrier backs to be collected by chaps on bikes & scooters. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.

[quixoticgeek]

The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.

 Have a couple of RFID shield things in my wallet. They are basically the form factor if a (thin) bank card. And I have one either side of a wodge if cards. And they shield them all. So just my OV chipkaart is readable when I apply whole wallet to the scanner.

J

[MikeFromLFE]

The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.

I've got the small key fob type cards with just a bard code on them.
Just the right size to lose.

[lissotriton]

Or store them on your phone. If it's just a barcode/QR code, you can keep it in a generic wallet app, instead of needing to install all of the proper apps. I like Catima. https://catima.app/

[Polar Bear]

We had a Coop open near us which has become very convenient.  I signed up and I have a small card in my wallet and the barcode on my phone.  I always use the card.

I mostly pay with cash because the card simply registers me on that particular occasion as being a member and thus enjoying discounts and a small but accumulating cashback, and I prefer cash.

Coop also makes donations to local "good causes" which is nice.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The reason I took those supermkt cards out of my wallet is cos I don't like carrying a fat, heavy, wallet, which is uncomfy in a pocket, etc. So putting them back in with RFID shield things would be even fatter, etc. The little key ring things are the same, but worse, cos they don't even lie flat in a pocket (until they break or get lost). I could put them on my phone, and then it makes sense to pay by phone too – but then that requires turning phone on, finding correct wallet app, activating it for payment card, activating it again for loyalty card, ect, ect. #fwp

[Mr Larrington]

The trouble with these member prices, clubcard prices, nectar prices, etc, is you end up with a wallet full of half a dozen cards in order to avoid paying the rip-off standard price. Tesco clubcard being the worst, because it also has rfid and stops your bank card working in "press whole wallet to the card reader" mode.

I've got the small key fob type cards with just a bard code on them.
Just the right size to lose.

?

[quixoticgeek]

The reason I took those supermkt cards out of my wallet is cos I don't like carrying a fat, heavy, wallet, which is uncomfy in a pocket, etc. So putting them back in with RFID shield things would be even fatter, etc. The little key ring things are the same, but worse, cos they don't even lie flat in a pocket (until they break or get lost). I could put them on my phone, and then it makes sense to pay by phone too – but then that requires turning phone on, finding correct wallet app, activating it for payment card, activating it again for loyalty card, ect, ect. #fwp

Likewise. My wallet is a National Rail Railcard holder. It's the most low profile wallet I could find. Even more so than the thousands of compact wallets that clutter up Kickstarter.

For the loyalty cards. I use the key ring things, but keep them in my wallet. Two side by side is the same as one full size card...

J

[bhoot]

Likewise. My wallet is a National Rail Railcard holder. It's the most low profile wallet I could find. Even more so than the thousands of compact wallets that clutter up Kickstarter.

For the loyalty cards. I use the key ring things, but keep them in my wallet. Two side by side is the same as one full size card...

J

Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.

[quixoticgeek]

Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.

I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

I got rid of mine. They don't last long before tearing anyway. I use one of these: https://www.cycleofgood.com/product-category/gifts/wallets-and-purses/
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.

[quixoticgeek]

I got rid of mine. They don't last long before tearing anyway. I use one of these: https://www.cycleofgood.com/product-category/gifts/wallets-and-purses/
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.

I get about a year or so out of mine before as you say they tear.
Even the slimline you linked too looks huge.

J

[Jaded]

I have my rail card on my phone. And my tickets. And my money. And my loyalty cards.

[Kim]

I got rid of mine. They don't last long before tearing anyway. I use one of these: https://www.cycleofgood.com/product-category/gifts/wallets-and-purses/
The 'pocket wallet' is ultra slim, the 'slimline with zip' is still slim and also holds coins.

As a low-down dirty darksider, I opted for one of these:  https://www.radicaldesign.com/ronker-wallet  (Which has now gone up to €BloodyHellHowMuch, I see)

It's clever at being thin, while not being too minimal, though mildly fiddly for coins.  Crucially, in the absence of zips and velcro, I expect it'll last at least as long as a set of bananananna bags.  (Though I got nearly 20 years^[1] out of my last one, which was an unremarkable distress purchase from some fashion place while hanging around Victoria station.)


_{[1] Approximately 10 of which were spent with coins leaking through a hole into the cards compartment.}

[Cudzoziemiec]

Interesting coin compartment. How effective is it at keeping the coins from falling out when the wallet gets turned upside down?

As for size, they're all limited by card dimension, obviously – and then by how much you put in them, particularly coins.

[Kim]

The coin compartment passes the hold-upside-down-wallet-open-and-shake-it test with flying colours, though having just tried that, a couple of business cards that were lurking in the note compartment managed to escape (they wouldn't if the wallet was closed, as the seam does appear to be effective at stopping things sliding out).  Obviously I've only made about three cash transactions in the last few years, but I think the idea of laying out the coins so you can immediately see (and use) them rather than rummaging around makes up for the slightly fiddly flap design.

[Jurek]

Pleased to hear I am not the only person with a National Rail wallet! Have acquired a large stock from ticket and bike reservation purchases so can replace when they fall apart.

I have 3 in stock. I need to get the next visitor from the UK to bring me a couple more...

J

I used to use these all the time.
These days I use a stainless note clip, and all my cards (there are only 3) and paper plastic money live between a pair of sacrificial cards (the clip tends to trash cards).
I can't think of a way of making it more minimalist than that.