Moving from HR training to 'power'

[rob]

I've come to find I take a ridiculous amount of time to warm up properly. 30km or so at audax pace. It's slow enough that I'm concerned about finding a different warm up strategy when I start racing.

I think I've worked out that I don't need to worry too much about this as I used to bury myself to get the HR up with a view to entering the interval at target HR.   

When I race I do at least 30mins, slowly bringing the HR up and then doing a few sprints.   For 10s and 25s, although I don't do very many, it's pretty important.   For a 50 I do the same warm-up, for 100s and 12hrs I barely bother - there's plenty of time to get warmed up as you get going.

I do try to ride to/from local events, but silly early morning events in the SE can scupper that.   Events in Lincolnshire seem to have much more civilised start times.

[Ningishzidda]

‘Warm-ups’ are NOT to elevate HR. HR will elevate itself if there is too much CO2 in the blood.
‘Warm-ups’ are to dilate both the vascular and pulmonary systems.

If you go barmy immediately, HR will rocket because the arteries are not getting enough blood to the not yet dilated alveoli. There will be an excess of CO2 in the blood, and not enough O2.
Doing this results in Piss Poor Performance.

Warm up so HR increases slowly and then reduces. When HR starts to ‘Cardiac Drift’, you’re warmed up. This could be nearly an hour or 20 miles steady riding on a TT bike.

Every racehorse knows they can run faster with an empty rectum.
Every TTer knows performance is better with an empty bladder.

[Pedal Castro]

When HR starts to ‘Cardiac Drift’, you’re warmed up too warm.

 

[rob]

Last night I did a 15min warm up, 20 mins at 80rpm, 5 min break and then attempted another 20mins at 80rpm.

During the first 20 mins my HR rose in a straight line and hit my threshold HR right at the end.   It dropped off for the 5mins but was up very quickly in the first 5mins of the second interval.   At this point I throttled back a little to 75rpm but kept going for the full 20mins.   Average output was 6% higher than doing the same session paced by HR last week.

I think I've found the right starting level for this workout, but now need to see how much longer I can push into the second interval at the intended output.

[rob]

This week has gone a lot better, but I have been reading up on cardiac drift.   It seems this may be the issue, but I have been surprised by the rate and size of the drift.

I have purchased a great big fan and will start to drink more during the sessions.

[LMT]

Power is the way to go. Have a gander at some of the books by Joe Friel.

[rob]

Power is the way to go. Have a gander at some of the books by Joe Friel.

I have one, but I do find these manuals a bit of a chore to get through.   I'm probably ideal coaching material, but I'm also too tight to pay for one - same reason I haven't bought a power meter (yet).

I'm getting on quite well using speed, cadence and HR, but it took a bit of experimentation.   I'm gradually increasing output and volume week-on-week, concentrating on tempo and threshold.   Base rides are done on the commute and I do a longer tempo ride on a Sunday morning.   This is a gradual build through to May/June next year when the fun starts.

[Pedal Castro]

Well, I bought my first power meter this week, a Powertap GS hub for a bargain £300 including the dual ANT+/BLE Powercap.

I will build it up with a Swiss DT RR585 rim and aero spokes for winter training and then put a deep carbon rim on it next season for racing. Although at that price I am only just resisting buying a second one!

[simonp]

Just retested. Thought I'd dropped more. Down to 269 from 276 in May.

[rob]

This Autumn's project is to purchase a power meter.   I'm a bit limited as I'm still going to train and race fixed.    I'm down to :-

- Power2Max crank based unit - would have been cheaper prior to brexit vote
- Powertap pedals - means changing from the speedplay zeroes that I really like.

[simonp]

I like the Powertap pedals mainly because I can move them between bikes. The balance thing is useful. They seem robust.

Two faults I have found:

 - don't work below a certain cadence, so steep hills on fixed can be an issue (and Hardknott on gears)
 - the cleats are not quite standard look. So they don't have the memory thing to keep the position when you replace cleats and I think the float options are more limited

I can't speak to their accuracy directly. Pedal based power is likely to the noisiest signal compared to as you move fruther down the drive train. It is the most direct measurement you could have short of having a power metering cleat or shoe.

[rob]

Leaning towards the power2max track system which is EUR990 at the moment.   The bike needs new cranks/bb anyway so it's a good time to change over.   I'd really rather not change my pedal system for now, I think.

A couple of forums say they read a bit low, but I suppose that doesn't matter too much if you're just measuring your own progress.

[LEE]

I've just sold my Kettler Magnetic "Spin Bike".  It will fund about 25 sessions at the LBS Wattbike course.
I'm a total convert to Wattbike/Power training.  My heart rate lags so far behind power output that I'd say "perceived effort" is a better way to do shortish intervals.
Of course perceived effort usually results in a slow downward curve of actual power. 

Maintaining real power at, or beyond, threshold is, as I have found out, way, way, waaaay beyond my perception of what "a really big effort" was.
2* 20 minute intervals at 110% & 130% of FTP is without a shadow of a doubt the toughest thing I have ever done whilst sat on a bike (It's one of the sessions on the FTP improvement course, the interval structure varies each session).

Also the group environment, with live performance figures displayed for all to see, adds the sort of peer-pressure motivation that I simply can't find in my lonely cold garage.

[Hot Flatus]

Using a power meter has been an eye-opener for me. Mostly because my perception of effort on flatter terrain is way off. Much more scope for going faster.  Also I've found it very interesting to watch the interplay between power output, HR, speed and cadence. There are times when I can go faster just by changing to a lower gear, without an apparent increase in effort. Seems obvious, but seeing numbers really focuses the mind.

I haven't got around to doing an FTP test yet.

Largely because I know that when I do I'll have to do the sort of training sessions LEE is talking about 

[LMT]

It's the only way to train, for sure I can see why people can see it as a bit daunted and the cost. New PM, head unit, trainer etc. But the gains are potentially massive, not to mention the psychologically impact of keeping to a set power going up a hill and knowing that you can do this because you have done it in training.

I was using the wattbike down the gym, then went onto the recumbent bikes (had a power meter fitted, felt right) because I ride a bent, but found I could not get motivated and was still different then riding my own recumbent.

So bought a Muin Direct Drive trainer and a subscription to Traineroad and am now the proud owner of my own pain cave. The trainer should pay of itself after four months given that the gym membership is now cancelled.

[LEE]

I just did a 20 minute Wattbike Retest, which estimates FTP.

It was an 8 session course, starting with a 20 minute test, then 6 varied sessions, and a final 20 minute threshold test.

My FTP went from 237W to 267W.  It's currently the only "cycling" I do (apart from a weekly pub evening at social pace).
Since I've been using wattbikes (with an experienced coach I stress) I've had significant power improvements in "Max Minute Power" and "Functional Threshold Power".

I think that, if you really went for it, maybe 3-4 sessions a week, with recovery days, you could realise some huge gains.
Knowing what I know now I'd expect that sort of training to move me from low 200s to low 300s in FTP within the year.

Really quite amazing results.... and f***ing painful. It's so incredibly intense that at no stage am I ever sure whether I'll make it to the end of the session.

[simonp]

Good to see.

[rob]

A lot of people on here talk about FTP and I can understand why as it's a measurable metric.   I can see why, for a TT rider specializing in 10s and 25s, that this is a very important number.

The thing for me, though, is how much does FTP really matter for an audax rider (which I think most of us are) ?   Just because you can get a huge amount of power out for an hour will it make you be able to get round a 600k or 1200k ?   Surely a more important number is power in endurance and tempo zones leading to  a flatter power curve ?

[simonp]

A lot of people on here talk about FTP and I can understand why as it's a measurable metric.   I can see why, for a TT rider specializing in 10s and 25s, that this is a very important number.

The thing for me, though, is how much does FTP really matter for an audax rider (which I think most of us are) ?   Just because you can get a huge amount of power out for an hour will it make you be able to get round a 600k or 1200k ?   Surely a more important number is power in endurance and tempo zones leading to  a flatter power curve ?

All athletes need a good aerobic base to get the best results. For longer rides, I would concur that more emphasis is needed on base. However, I have found that I got better results from following an FTP-based training plan than by riding lots of long miles at a steady pace. I think if your FTP is higher then the power you can output in the endurance zone while staying fat burning would tend to be higher. My highest lab-test FTP (~280W) coincided with my highest tested fat burning (~70%) rate in the endurance zone.

[LEE]

What Simonp said plus having an improved FTP surely makes the tough parts of Audax less stressful on the body.
Faster for less effort makes for a nice Audax ride.

I don't ride TTs or Race.  I do however notice a huge improvement in my recovery time after a hard climb and I can push harder for longer on the hills.

One of the toughest things I have ever done on an Audax ride was a 100km leg of a 600km into a headwind through Lincolnshire last year.
That was as close to a solo 100km TT effort as I can imagine and came down to lots of power for a long time.
My recent FTP improvement came a year too late to help though.