Author Topic: [HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1  (Read 164570 times)

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #400 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:08:38 am »
This UMCA HAMR thing is flawed anyway, as it's skewed towards attempts like Kurts' with mild weather and a follow car. You can't compare Steves' ride to Kurts' because they're not done under the same conditions, despite having the same tracker and following the same rule book.

If Bruce wants to ride further than anyone else, that's his choice how he does it, surely.

As in all competition, the competitors have to take the interpretation of the rules and apply them as they see fit (getting as much advantage as they can whilst staying on the very edge of the rules).

Steve has chosen one way to execute an attempt under the rules, whilst kurt chose another.

Same rules, same competition. Their attempts are absolutely comparable in that respect.

Bruce has chosen not to work within those rules and whatever he does, it will never be comparable to Steve or Kurt.

I will not say he is wasting his time because if I could find a way to be given some nice bikes and ride them for a year, then I would love to (maybe not 200 odd miles a day though!). So I hope he enjoys his year of riding a bike, I really do. But, he is now not attempting to ride a bike further than anyone in a year, because even if he does, the standard of proof will always be subject to question and lack of independent validation (it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #401 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:12:10 am »
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

Here's the post that cleared that up: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1971214#msg1971214
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #402 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:15:42 am »
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

But it does illustrate the point that relying on Strava as proof of a 'record breaking' ride completed is, at best, unsatisfactory, and needs verification by some other method (and not simply a different interpretation of the same GPS trace).

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #403 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:19:32 am »
Indeed. He could end up 'breaking the record' on Garmin connect but not on strava.

He's being a stubborn fool which I know is essential in long distance riding (the stubborn bit anyway, the fool helps sometimes), but really he will not be seen in the same light as Steve or kurt whatever happens.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #404 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:20:48 am »
(it appears that strava is not enough, people have already noted some discrepancies in his distances due to use/lack of use of a wheel sensor (I can not remember which way it was!).

No, that was just down to amount of riding he had been doing within the Strava privacy zones. Looking at the rides on Garmin Connect confirmed this.

Here's the post that cleared that up: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93962.msg1971214#msg1971214

Strava distances are often slightly below Garmin Connect distances as Strava is more aggressive about stopped time for segment comparison reasons. It reprocesses the GC data...

An admin explains this on this thread IIRC https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/21629956-Why-is-Strava-showing-different-times-than-my-Garmin-

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #405 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:22:05 am »
I always thought the difference between Florida, the Southern States and The eastern side of The UK was blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm wrong and my geography skills are completely crap and The UK is just like Florida, only different.

Just because the rules are the same, doesn't mean the miles are the same.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #406 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:24:42 am »
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #407 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:25:31 am »
he will not be seen in the same light as Steve or kurt whatever happens.

It's hard to predict the future!

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #408 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:26:03 am »
I always thought the difference between Florida, the Southern States and The eastern side of The UK was blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm wrong and my geography skills are completely crap and The UK is just like Florida, only different.

Just because the rules are the same, doesn't mean the miles are the same.

It's a mileage record. How you do them within the rules doesn't matter. Whether you do them in the UK, Florida, Antarctica or Timbucktu a mile is a mile.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #409 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:29:26 am »
From the other angle, assume Bruce completes a year, exceeds all previous mileage records and Strava et al are happy. We'll have even more to argue about. It would just add another but to the equation:-

but Tommy did it on prehistoric stone wheels
but Steve s doing it pure audax UK style
but Kurt had too much weather advantage
but Kurt used a recumbent
but Bruce wasn't UMCA/Guiness verified
but Bruce still did more miles and we believe him
but Tommy didn't have live trackers
but.....but........but......the buts are endless

and it'll go round and round

Nuns, no sense of humour

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #410 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:31:13 am »
1. I am sorry I have been riding every day as you can no doubt see, and forgot to make the payment.

2. I looked into the spot tracking and simply do not have the funds to spend more money on this option. I sent you a option that does provide live tracking and it would do the job required. It does not say on your website that I have to use a specific brand of live tracking, simply that I must have live tracking. I think I have not breached any rules here either.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Membership of UMCA was overlooked for pretty valid reasons.  There was no philosophical objection to this.  It would have been sorted out in the end.

And the response to live tracking was also valid.  He obeyed the letter and the spirit of the laws.  250 quid is no trivial amount, and kudos for Bruce doing this attempt without support.

I understand that officials are likely to be officious, but totally surprised that bystanders on here resort to calling this magnificent audacious rider a "twunt".  If you think he is cheating, say so.  This disagreement is not about dodgey mileages, it is about petty compliance with buying one particular brand of data logger.  Absolutely pathetic.

Allez Bruce.  Ride far and take the 'real' record of the greatest ever annual mileage.


Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #411 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:36:35 am »
Strava itself is not proof, it's just a handy public place to store the logs of what riding was done (and in the case of the UMCA riders, a log of what they believe is accurate/fact).

The proof was several fold:-
a) The live (well, position updates every 15 minutes) tracker was visible to everyone in real time
b) The uploaded GPX/FIT files to Strava could be matched against the log from the live tracker
c) People looked at the live tracker and went out looking for Steve/Kurt/whoever and bumped into them, frequent mentions of "I was there when he was supposed to go past but didn't see him" would have made themselves obvious and they didn't (not including the people that simply can't read a tracker properly, or the fact that it's sometimes hard to guess where he is going to go since you need to be ahead of him!). Maybe even some local representatives of the UMCA did this unannounced to confirm they were riding, they may have just sat on a bench in Flatwood or Marsh Gibbon and waited and not even acknowledged him...
d) The riders had to upload daily photos/videos to the UMCA, this helps confirm the rider was in various places at specified times that tally with the GPX logs. You can also get cues from the weather in the background, etc.

(a) shows that something was moving around at the time it was and helps confirm that the more granular GPX/FIT files (b) are representative of that thing moving around. The cadence/HR/power data in the GPX/FIT files help show it was most likely someone cycling and then (c) and (d) help show that it was actually Kurt/Steve being the thing that was cycling (it being too risky to have a random person find someone else instead of Kurt/Steve riding a bike along the road at that time.)

Without a live tracker that keeps a log of where it had gone you lose the (b) confirmation that the GPX/FIT files uploaded are a fair representation of a day's ride as you can't do a side by side comaprison at the end of each day.

Without public access to the live tracker you make it hard for (c) to happen.

I've no idea whether Bruce was complying with (d) or not.

What Steve/Kurt log on Strava/Bikejournal (or whatever Kurt used) isn't proof, but by following the other requirements it gets blessed by the UMCA (or other validating authority) as being an accepted/accurate record of the day.

Likewise what Bruce uploads isn't proof, and he lacks the actions of the UMCA (or someone else currently) to promote them to 'accepted' status.

I can imagine Bruce's Strava uploads alone will be enough to convince some people, and he may get people to come along to witness him (every day is doubtful), but without the daily proof requirements being checked by a separate authority it's not going to be enough to satisfy (by my guess) the vast majority of people.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #412 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:37:21 am »
@ Justin(e) Agreed, he deserves some respect.

Calling him a _unt is a sad reflection on the name callers.

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #413 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:45:05 am »
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt. 


Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #414 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:46:44 am »
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Then why not put in the rules that a SPOT tracker is explicitly required? They asked for "Live Tracking" without specifics of what was required, they also said it must be in place at least two weeks before the record attempt was due to start but the correspondence released suggests Bruce was first told to get a SPOT tracker on December 30th.

(Obviously there must have been correspondence before 30th December as Bruce would have needed to apply in the first place, so it might have been covered there.)

Is it Bruce's fault for not ensuring the live tracking was acceptable before starting, or the UMCA's fault for not enforcing its rules early enough to give him fair warning? (Probably a combination of both...)

[EDIT]

Keeping things charged isn't a technology problem, it's a logisitical problem, and it applies to the recording device (Garmin) too, so no difference there. There are rules in place to deal with what happens when the tracking is lost, which ultimately ends up in a DQ if it proves too unreliable.

SPOT trackers aren't 100% reliable either, there are plenty of times where Steve and Kurt's trackers have missed a few updates (not just because they've turned them off at a stop!). Mobile coverage looks fine in Adelaide (and the roads he was using) and isn't really a problem in the UK, depending on your mobile network you're rarely out of signal for more than 10 minutes if you're cycling, which isn't much different from SPOT updates every 15 minutes. The lack of public access to the data, and the lack of logging, looked to be the problem and I'm surprised that couldn't be addressed with a different app, surely there is one out there that does both of those for cheap.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #415 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:52:23 am »
so now we have two male riders riding a year's highest mileage for their own pleasure? :)

i've ridden an audax in the past where i forgot to send the card with receipts to the organiser after finishing it. did i do that ride? i have the card, receipts and gps track to prove! ;D

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #416 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:54:01 am »
Strava themselves will not ratify or in any way guarantee that the statistics stored on their site are accurate or even genuine - their terms and conditions state such. Neither will they take on the oversight of any efforts which require independent verification. So, when anyone asks Strava if Bruce actually rode what he says he rode, they'll say something along the lines of "no comment". That's not how he wants it, I'm sure, and it's not going to garner him the credit which he will probably deserve. There's also the point (raised upthread) that he's secured equipment sponsorship, presumably on the basis that he's attempting some kind of official record. The sponsors may regard the Strava exposure as sufficient return, but equally they may not. I doubt any will demand the return of their equipment, but they may refuse to allow him to mention them in any publicity he secures - which I suspect will now be less than it could have been.


As for the cost of the Spot tracker, as many have said on here and on Strava, crowdfunding would have sorted that instantly. It's not a valid excuse. Especially in view of the airfares and other expenses incurred in going from the UK to Australia.

I'm not about to call him names, but I feel his behaviour has been foolish at best.
 

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #417 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:56:18 am »
Shame that Bruce seems to have burnt his bridges with the UMCA.  As for all the effort required for a year long record,  like others I really doubt, in the absence of independent official scrutiny, that Strava alone will be enough in the way of 'validation'.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #418 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:56:35 am »
The year round record (deliberately not HAMR) is not an agreeable personality contest, a test of obedience to rules, or of general amiability.  It's only about riding the miles.

That rather depends on who you want to recognise and respect your claim of holding the record. If it's just your mates down the pub and some randoms on Strava then you're right. However, if you want broader recognition then it absolutely a test of following a rule set of some description and it's going to need someone with the personality that can do that. It's more than about riding the miles, its about recording them and doing so in a fashion that the people you seek the recognition of will trust.

Now, I'm not able to speak for Bruce. However, if you make public claims and initially register with an organisation that the UMCA and/or Guiness, it seems likely that you're interested in recognition from more than just your mates.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #419 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:56:45 am »


I'm inclined to let Bruce get on with it. He's clearly incapable of falsifying his data, as he lacks the competence.

We can examine his data to see if it conforms to the trends seen in other record attempts, which is a dataset that has grown enormously in the last year. It will be easy to see any 'blips' that indicate cheating or changes in methodology. Riding with pros comes to mind, or motor-pacing. Those won't disqualify him in my mind, but he might need to explain those variations.

UMCA need to defend their existence. The rise of unsupported 'Transcontinental' rides is putting them out of a job. Audax is feeling some of that, look at the two parallel 'Wild Atlantic Way' rides in Ireland. But there is no monopoly in Audacity, one meaning of which is 'bare faced cheek'.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #420 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:57:20 am »
but Kurt used a recumbent

....  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.


Aha, so drafting is allowed after all  8)
9 miles SW of Marsh Gibbon

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #421 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:57:41 am »
Thanks to Drew Clark & UMCA for clarifying the situation.  Lack of transparency was not helping.

I was keeping an open mind till we had confirmation.  Now we have that, it does seem like Bruce, phenomenal rider though he is, is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and, to mix my metaphors, spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar (well, £150 worth).

It's a massive shame, as he has/had a strong chance of beating Kurt and Steve, given decent support.  Carrying on riding, cause it's what he is good at, could yet provide a headscratcher for record keepers. 

I still wish him good luck and tailwinds.  And the very best of luck getting Guinness to ratify an attempt retrospectively, which has  proposed relocation across the globe planned! :\
Getting there...

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #422 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:58:34 am »
The UMCA could certainly do with clarifying their requirements about live tracking. Something along the lines of "Must be visible to the public without individual access approvals, and must maintain a log of positions recorded." That would at least stop someone in the future making the mistake.

Either that or make the fee higher to include the rental of a SPOT tracker and year long tracking subscription with a deposit refunded upon return (with the appropriate discount for riders that provide their own).

No-one predicted the membership issue though, that's an interesting one.

But they clarified that in subsequent correspondence. They required a SPOT tracker. I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept Find My Friends as what are the chances his phone would keep charge throughout and it's reliant on a mobile signal. Like Miles it sounds like Bruce might be "technologically challenged".

Then why not put in the rules that a SPOT tracker is explicitly required? They asked for "Live Tracking" without specifics of what was required, they also said it must be in place at least two weeks before the record attempt was due to start but the correspondence released suggests Bruce was first told to get a SPOT tracker on December 30th.

(Obviously there must have been correspondence before 30th December as Bruce would have needed to apply in the first place, so it might have been covered there.)

Is it Bruce's fault for not ensuring the live tracking was acceptable before starting, or the UMCA's fault for not enforcing its rules early enough to give him fair warning? (Probably a combination of both...)

Reading between the lines there must have been correspondence about the tracker before the 30th December. It sounds like Bruce's method had already been discounted by the UCMA. They gave him the opportunity to get a SPOT tracker after he had started, that might have put into question any mileage he acquired before it was activated though.

The membership fee was unfortunate and could have been sorted in a few minutes.

red marley

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #423 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:59:33 am »
but Kurt used a recumbent

This seems to me to be one of the key ingredients as to why we should give UMCA such little credibility.

The rule of being able to ride a recumbent bicycle was introduced after Steve had his 'off'.  The fact that Hoppo seems to have had a controversial role in both Steve's camp and the UMCA camp points to the rules being amended on the fly to suit one particular rider.  Of course this does not even scratch the surface when in 2014 Steve helped draft all the rules in the first place.

Kurt then used this rule change to his full advantage.  In my opinion, this was most unfortunate - as it questioned the legitimacy of his putative record.

Compare this to Bruce's attempt.  Instead of rules being changed to assist his attempt (recumbent), rules are being changed (prescribed manufacturer's kit) to hinder his attempt.

Citation needed!

Kurt was riding his 'bent in January, long before Steve's off. https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=87329.msg1797566#msg1797566

I don't think this was a rule change during the course of the challenge and couldn't have been in response to Steve's use of one.

And following the correspondence between UMCA and Bruce, it looks to me that there would have been space for an alternative to Spot that satisfied the requirements of open access and a log of previous positions should Bruce have proposed one. I see the mention of Spot as a helpful suggestion that was known to be practical and affordable.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #424 on: 20 January, 2016, 11:04:05 am »
Shame that Bruce seems to have burnt his bridges with the UMCA.

I don't think that at all. I'm sure they'd welcome a subsequent application for HAM'R as long as he complied with the rules and got his membership sorted.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."