Author Topic: [HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1  (Read 167360 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #475 on: 20 January, 2016, 06:08:55 pm »
Anyway, maybe this sub-discussion needs to be split off from Bruce's thread. I wouldn't want anyone to get any suggestion that Bruce could be involved in anything like this.

Agreed.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #476 on: 20 January, 2016, 06:45:36 pm »
Anyway, maybe this sub-discussion needs to be split off from Bruce's thread. I wouldn't want anyone to get any suggestion that Bruce could be involved in anything like this.

Agreed.

Absolutely, discussions exactly like this one have caused "issues" in the past. Fingers have been pointed and threats have been made.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #477 on: 20 January, 2016, 06:47:30 pm »
But "issues" with ratifying bodies I assume.  Which isn't an issue here.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #478 on: 20 January, 2016, 07:14:21 pm »
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #479 on: 20 January, 2016, 07:22:52 pm »
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #480 on: 20 January, 2016, 07:52:14 pm »
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?


I'm not sure there needs to be one. Steve's Audax record was accepted with the usual proof, which is essentially the same as Tommy Godwin's.

Although there's some overlap between the UMCA and RUSA, as there's a crossover between AUK, CTT and RRA, the HAMR's position under the Audax board becomes moot at some point.

Perhaps someone would like to stick their neck out and start a records board where Strava tracks can be debated and pronounced on.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #481 on: 20 January, 2016, 08:04:49 pm »
I think that misses the point.  Fanbase = observers = verification.

My point was that he refers to the ultracycling fanbase. The UMCA is a bit of a latecomer to the field of long-distance cycling. There's no reason for it to be seen as the sole arbiter.
Who do you suggest as an alternative?


I'm not sure there needs to be one. Steve's Audax record was accepted with the usual proof, which is essentially the same as Tommy Godwin's.

Hmm. For the Audax record Steve would have ridden at least half of the distance with many others on calendar events. For the rest he was collecting a wide variety of receipts.

I'm not sure how often Tommy's witnesses were written to to ask for verification but I'm sure Cycling did a fair bit of checking.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #482 on: 20 January, 2016, 08:09:13 pm »
Steve's 405 point year was virtually all from perms, deliberately so as he was making a point about the 50% rule. Somebody else (Peter T?) won the championship that year.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #483 on: 20 January, 2016, 08:14:51 pm »
Ah yes, I'll try and claim I was talking about his record in '96 then.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #484 on: 20 January, 2016, 08:17:41 pm »
Cycling ran a list of Mileaters every year. Tommy's record was part of that. It's difficult to know how much proof was presented all these years later. Cycling would have been fairly accommodating to their principal advertiser, in terms of special validation, and the details would have made good copy.
The Mileater lives on in AUK. Hoppo was the champion in 2005. http://audax.dotadmin.com/mileater


Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #486 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:29:27 pm »
Thanks danridesbikes, some interesting bits:-

Quote
There is a widespread misconception – and we will hold our hands up and acknowledge that it is one that we at road.cc have on occasion repeated – that Guinness World Records would not recognise a fresh attempt on Godwin’s record because of the physical demands involved.

But as Abraham says in this post [http://oneyeartimetrial.org.uk/tommy-godwin] on his website, that is a “myth.”

And...

Quote
Berkeley is already a holder of two Guinness World Records – for the greatest distances cycled in a week and in a month, set respectively in 2014 and 2015.

And...

Quote
We have spoken to Guinness World Records to seek confirmation that they are indeed certifying Berkeley’s record attempt with effect from 1 January 2016, and will update this story once we have their response.

Hopefully they'll also ask for confirmation of his week and month world records since Guinness don't seem to list them.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

red marley

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #487 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:47:16 pm »
I think he's living in fantasy land if he thinks Guinness will ratify his first three weeks.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #488 on: 20 January, 2016, 10:57:17 pm »
They only need to ratify his next fifty two that's all.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #489 on: 20 January, 2016, 11:00:53 pm »
Guinness recognise Godwin's effort: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/greatest-distance-cycled-in-a-year and that certainly had some drafting.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #490 on: 20 January, 2016, 11:08:41 pm »
ridiculous set of rules from Guinness

That is quite wonderful. Is that the set of rules Bruce will now be riding to? ;D

I wish him well, and regardless of who ratifies his rides (if anyone does), he has enlivened this whole challenge.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #491 on: 20 January, 2016, 11:15:46 pm »
Janet Davison rode through July last year, announced to the press that she was awaiting ratification in September, and now she's listed as the month record holder. It doesn't seem to be that onerous.
Bruce rode his month last January to lots of Strava kudos.

Road cc should be talking to Janet Davison.

crowriver

  • Крис Б
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #492 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:02:52 am »
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?
Embrace your inner Fred.

crowriver

  • Крис Б
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #493 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:08:35 am »
Bruce rode his month last January to lots of Strava kudos.

He does seem overly fixated on "Strava kudos".

How can he claim to hold the Guinness Records for the week and month when there is no evidence this is the case? Is it just pure bluster? Or is this another case of "admin problems" at the certifying organisation?
Embrace your inner Fred.

LMT

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #494 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:21:27 am »
Cannot see no mention of this elsewhere here, apologies if already posted:-

A full report on the Disqualification of Bruce Berkeley from the UMCA HAMR attempt started on January 1, 2016

We have been asked by many for the full reasoning behind our disqualification of Bruce Berkely's record attempt. Our records chair has prepared the following complete accounting. Please note that by using the Spot Tracker and GPS with Heart Rate Monitor we have been able to identify errors in reporting and get them corrected. The accounting of mileage for such an endeavor is no small task. It is our records chair's job to make sure he gets what he needs. What follows is the full report, including emails between Bruce and Drew and other members of the UMCA Board of Directors. Email addresses are redacted:

1. Dec 30: Bruce Berkeley was notified that he needed to get Spot tracker; reasons in the following email. Bruce had previously selected a live tracker that was inadequate. Anyone who wanted to track him had to first submit a request and wait for it to be approved before tracking was enabled. Given that Bruce (or any HAM’R rider) might not be able to approve such a request for several days make this entirely unacceptable. Rules do give this authority to the Records Chairman.
From the Rules for Record Attempts:
Riders will be required to have an active live tracking device in operation for all mileage to be credited for the attempt. In addition, riders will have a trip recording device (such as a Garmin) that will record the route taken, speed, elevation/gradient and at least one of heart rate or power. Riders will be responsible for carrying backup batteries to power whatever device/app we decide upon. The devices used will be subject to the approval of the Records Chairman.

Dear Bruce,

You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves a trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please see me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

2. Jan 2: Bruce is notified that he has not become member of UMCA, as is required by the rules. At this point, I was willing to treat this as a misunderstanding (no penalty or warning) but only if prompt corrective action were taken.
On 2 Jan 2016, at 13:58, Drew Clark wrote:

Dear Bruce,

It has been brought to my attention that you have not yet enrolled as a member of UMCA. You must do so immediately.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

3. Jan 2: Bruce promises prompt action.
On Jan 2, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:

Drew

Was this not included? This is the first I have know about this! I'm 2 days in and pretty tired tonight, so probably won't get it sorted this evening.

I will sort as soon as I get a chance.

Been getting some serious interest on Strava, nearly 1000 likes on yesterday's ride! Massive

Bruce

4. Jan 2: Drew Clark affirms membership requirement.
January 2, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

5. Jan 4: Drew Clark again affirms membership requirement.
January 4, 2015
Dear Bruce,

I have not heard back from you yet regarding membership in UMCA.

I understand that you thought membership was part of the application fee; it is not.
I am willing to allow for the misunderstanding, but only up to the point where you were notified of the problem.

I wrote on January 2:
The rules clearly require UMCA membership for a record attempt.
An application for a record attempt is entirely separate from membership.
You do need to do this immediately. It takes about 5 minutes.
If not, adherents to Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel may well challenge your mileage.

Paul Carpenter (who is copied on this email) handles membership and can help you with any issue on that front and he will notify me as soon as you join.

UMCA will not post any official data for your attempt until this is accomplished.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

6. Jan 4: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 4, 2016

Please let me know if I can help Bruce. Basic membership is $35 and can be paid through the on line store.

http://ultracycling.com/store/index.php

Paul.

7. Jan 5: Paul Carpenter, President of UMCA, again offers to help Bruce complete his membership process. This email was also sent to Bruce.
January 5, 2016
Paul Carpenter again offered help to Bruce
Hi Bruce,

If you use the link I included in the email you can use PayPal to pay when you checkout of the store.

Paul.

8. Jan 5: Bruce replied, promising to complete the membership process “in the morning."
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Bruce Berkeley wrote:
Hi Drew/Paul

I will sort the payment for the membership in the morning. Can I pay it with PayPal? Just a quick one though Drew, this was an error at your end not informing me that I had to pay the membership fee as well, so I was under the impression it was all sorted! So apologies for this, but would appreciate if you could work with me here! I have started the attempt and I do not have a lot of time at the end of the day.

Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning

Bruce

9. Jan 5: Drew Clark replied on the same day. Please note that Bruce was strongly urged (again) to enlist crew to help prevent exactly the kind of situation that ultimately resulted. Bruce declined to utilize ANY crew.(Note: Because HAM’R riders are not required to use a follow vehicle, no crew was required in the past. This will be rectified by a new HAM’R rule that will require a HAM’R rider to have at least one crew designated to handle communication in the future.)
January 5, 2016
Dear Bruce,

Great! I look forward to getting you fully into HAM’R.

Please be aware that you still also need to sign up for Spot tracker, per my previous email, pasted here for reference:
You definitely need to get the Spot tracker for the following reasons.
1. Spot will allow open access. Any neutral observer can go to the Spot website and track your rides, as opposed to the Find My Friends app which requires a friend request to be approved. Spot will serve the fan base of ultracycling better as well as serve you better; once your attempt begins, you do not need to spend any time approving friend requests for the live tracker, nor should the ultracycling fan base need to wait for approval. Even as simple as the process may be, we do not want to deter observers in the least.

2. Spot leaves trail. I do not know if Find My Friends does or not; I think not. What I mean is this: I can go to Spot for days AFTER one of your rides and see where you were at any selected time. On occasion during the past year, I was able to use this feature to reconstruct a ride for which Strava/Garmin had a glitch.

3. Use of Find My Friends virtually guarantees your will lose miles when Strava has a glitch (because it is a near certainty that Strava will have one or more glitches during your year of riding).

As soon as you sign up for Spot, please send me a link to one of your rides. Thanks.

You wrote: "but would appreciate if you could work with me here!"
I will be delighted to work with you. Per the rules, the Records Chairman (me) is your official-of-record for your HAM’R attempt. I will spend many hours this year compiling documentation for your attempt. I will even spend more out-of-pocket to create and preserve this documentation than your membership will cost. I am not paid for my work for UMCA; this is purely voluntary. As your official, I am rooting for you to succeed. But a big part of the role of the official is to build a "defensible wall” around your attempt so that your efforts can survive a challenge. I have already received queries about your live tracker (or absence thereof).

If anyone files an actual complaint or challenge, your attempt may be subject to penalties as prescribed in the rules, which could range from warning to a loss or miles.

So, please complete the membership application ASAP and also the Spot tracker.

I will again urge you to enlist crew persons to assist you. I know you prefer to go it alone, but this approach will likely cost you time and maybe miles. Crew persons can perform many time-saving tasks for you such as: answering communications, fetching bicycle parts in case of unexpected breakdowns, and many other tasks. I know Steven Abraham and Kurt Searvogel did effectively use support crew for many such things. Enlisting crew will not be required of you, but it it s certainly recommended.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

10. Jan 9: Drew Clark notified Paul Carpenter and Doug Hoffman of noncompliance by Bruce, though both were previously aware of the situation.
January 9, 2016
Dear Paul and Doug,

We have a problem with Bruce Berkely. After promising on Jan 5 to make membership payment on Jan 6, I have received no confirmation of his having done so.
Have either of you seen anything from him?

Nor is he complaint with his live tracker.

But he is riding and has thousands of followers.

I have to issue a warning, a penalty, or a DQ. I have some latitude, but in my opinion, he has gone past a mere warning already.
I am thinking along these lines: a) A penalty of loss of miles, or b) no miles count until he is compliant (essentially a restart on new date), or c) DQ

Any thoughts before I do so?

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

11. Jan 10: Official warning issued to Bruce.
January 10, 2016
Dear Bruce,

The purpose is twofold:
1. We do encourage you to continue your effort and want to work with you.

2. This is an official warning that you’re out of compliance with UMCA rules for a HAM’R attempt, specifically a) No UMCA membership and b ) No Spot tracker
This is serious enough that if you need to take time off from riding, you should do so.

If you need help to attain either of these, please let us know immediately. Paul can help with membership. I can re-send info for the Spot tracker.

More severe consequences will follow very rapidly. These include loss of miles or a restart or DQ.

Notes: You were first notified on Jan 2 about the membership issue. Your response was: "I will sort as soon as I get a chance.”
You were reminded again on January 5. You promised: "Thanks and I'll send the payment in the morning.”

It is now January 10, and no action has been taken.
Please respond immediately with action.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

12. Jan 16: After six more days of no action by Bruce and no communication from Bruce, he is disqualified.
January 16, 2016
Dear Bruce,

This is official notice that your HAM’R attempt is officially over.
You are not in compliance with UMCA rules for your HAM’R attempt.
Despite repeated chances and repeated warnings, you were not in compliance when you started and never accepted our offer to become compliant.

Best wishes if you continue riding, but none of your mileage will be certified by UMCA.

UMCA Records Chairman
Drew Clark

13. Jan 17: Bruce finally replies, with two emails in succession
January 17, 2016
Hi Drew

Thanks for the email, pretty shocked with the content. To give me an official warning seems pretty over the top. Surely that should relate to some form of bending the rules, this is not something I have done.

1. I am sorry I have been riding every day as you can no doubt see, and forgot to make the payment.
2. I looked into the spot tracking and simply do not have the funds to spend more money on this option. I sent you a option that does provide live tracking and it would do the job required. It does not say on your website that I have to use a specific brand of live tracking, simply that I must have live tracking. I think I have not breached any rules here either.

As a result of the email and the issues we are having I have left the group and I no longer want you to officiate on my record attempt, as a result of this can you please refund my payment, less an Admin fee, as I will now use Guinness to verify my attempt.

I can do without the extra agro that I am getting at the end of very long and hard days in the saddle. I would have thought you guys would understand this better than anyone as you officiate on these distance records. I expected to work with you guys, not be treated like I am doing something wrong.

Please advise me when the refund has been processed.

Bruce

Drew

I hope you got my last email! This is not on!! You have tarnished my reputation and not done anything to help me out here! I now hear I have been disqualified!? I do not want your organisation involved in my record attempt! You are overly officious and did nothing to understand or help me out!

I expect a full refund and have raised a claim with PayPal regards the fee!

I am annoyed that I ever got you involved with this challenge!

Please advise about the refund

Bruce

14. Jan 17: Bruce files a “buyer complaint” with Paypal. It is interesting that he did not have time to pay for his membership, but did have time to file a buyer complaint.
January 17, 2016
From Mark Newsome:
FYI -- Seems that Bruce (David?) Berkeley is seeking a refund of his record attempt fees. (The site receives notifications of PayPal activity.) Looks like he's filed a "buyer complaint" (see text below).

Whomever manages our PayPal account should see the message from PayPal...

--Mark

15. Jan 17: Decision regarding a refund to Bruce
From the Rules of Record Attempts:
"Fees are non-refundable, non-transferable, and cannot be applied toward other future record attempts. In other words, once you submit your fee, you are indicating your intention to make the attempt."

As Records Chairman, my job is to uphold the rules. The Rules state that the application fee is not refundable, so I cannot authorize that. But the Board does have authority to freely male whatever decision they wish regarding a refund.

Drew Clark, UMCA Records

16. Jan19, 2016: UMCA Board approves a full refund (no admin fee taken) to Bruce Berkeley even though the rules clearly state that the application fee is non-refundable, as a gesture of good will towards Bruce. The UMCA Board wishes Bruce Berkeley well in his attempt, but UMCA will not certify the attempt and will not verify mileage for the attempt.

Oaky

  • ACME Fire Safety Officer
  • Audax Club Mid-Essex
    • MEMWNS Map
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #495 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:22:18 am »
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?

It's stuff like the image below (not the record mentioned above, but "static cycling"  ??? ) that make me respect the Guinness records verification mechanism so much (especially the panel of images of other records that take up most of the screen space)

(click to show/hide)
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #496 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:26:50 am »
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html

Oaky

  • ACME Fire Safety Officer
  • Audax Club Mid-Essex
    • MEMWNS Map
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #497 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:27:35 am »
Cannot see no mention of this elsewhere here, apologies if already posted:-

<snip>.

Haven't read all of the above to see if it's new, but most of it would seem to be here on this very thread
You are in a maze of twisty flat droves, all alike.

85.4 miles from Marsh Gibbon

Audax Club Mid-Essex Fire Safety Officer
http://acme.bike

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #498 on: 21 January, 2016, 01:55:16 am »
Yes, according to Guinness it's Davidson that's the record holder.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/118987-farthest-distance-cycled-in-one-month

Maybe someone would like to comment on the road.cc article to that effect?

It's Davison, and it was done yesterday.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #499 on: 21 January, 2016, 06:57:45 am »
No-one knows how volatile internet media are. Strava kudos may evaporate at some point, and the record books will live on.
I'm surprised that there's no Pathe News footage of Tommy Godwin. They seemed fixated on women professionals, so Eileen Sheridan puts in a couple of appearances, most memorably in this piece. http://www.britishpathe.com/video/housewife-cyclist/query/Eileen+Sheridan
Place to Place records became unfashionable for most. I still like them, and Eileen still has a few, 60 years later.

http://www.rra.org.uk/records%20place%20to%20place.html
I love the voice over on the news reel "No wonder she wins races, she has to get back and catch up with the house work."

Ah the past was a different country. They did things differently there.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.