Author Topic: [HAMR] New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1  (Read 165312 times)

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #650 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:21:32 pm »
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #651 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:29:36 pm »
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?

Verification to one means something else to another. Who is to what is ideal verification. He's using a garmin and must hold onto every single ride file from that garmin to be sent to Guinness.

I trust his rides until I have reason to believe otherwise. It his job to prove to Guinness at the end of the year, we don't know what records he's keeping other than he doesn't have a spot tracker.

You and any other who believe it is simple to make believable 200+ mile fake rides, with power data, go for it. Show us how easy it is, submit those rides to strava.

simonp

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #652 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:37:54 pm »
Remember to take a year off work or you'll be found out pretty quickly.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #653 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:39:02 pm »
Remember to take a year off work or you'll be found out pretty quickly.

I know what you've been reading.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #654 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:42:58 pm »
One person called bruce something rude. That's not all of us.

I think Bruce is a heck of a rider, but he is being very stubborn, he's had advice (even from Kurt) and offer of financial help. He's rejected both.  That's a damn shame, because I think he's demonstrated the ability to have a realistic chance of upping the 76, 076 annual mileage figure.

He's claimed, multiple times, to be the holder of 2 records. We know those claims to be untrue. I'm really unsure why he's made these claims; I'm pretty certain he did the rides, but the officiating body is saying 'no record'. That could be that they didn't accept his evidence, it could some other reason.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #655 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:47:21 pm »
ure.

He's claimed, multiple times, to be the holder of 2 records. We know those claims to be untrue. I'm really unsure why he's made these claims; I'm pretty certain he did the rides, but the officiating body is saying 'no record'. That could be that they didn't accept his evidence, it could some other reason.

My suspicion is that he has, or believes he has, beaten the records, but hasn't done any of the tedious paperwork.

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #656 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:52:10 pm »
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void

Mr Larrington

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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #657 on: 25 January, 2016, 12:52:38 pm »
Rule 8 in SoreTween's post looks a bit of a showstopper if he's been hanging out with Sky and the Beanie Babies Astana.
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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #658 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:15:02 pm »
People are being harsh on Bruce. Calling him a conceited fantasist? Really? I feel the more everyone speculates on this forum the more nasty the tone becomes. We saw this with Steve attempt up until he called it off.

Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

Without the verification required how can anyone trust he is putting in legitimate miles?

Verification to one means something else to another. Who is to what is ideal verification. He's using a garmin and must hold onto every single ride file from that garmin to be sent to Guinness.

I trust his rides until I have reason to believe otherwise. It his job to prove to Guinness at the end of the year, we don't know what records he's keeping other than he doesn't have a spot tracker.

You and any other who believe it is simple to make believable 200+ mile fake rides, with power data, go for it. Show us how easy it is, submit those rides to strava.

I don't think Bruce is faking Strava rides but it would be possible for him (or a mate) to fake a ride for an odd day or two he misses if he wanted. The point is if he doesn't meet all of the verification processes required by the officiating body then he has no claim on a legitimate world record from that body. His claims for the week and month record are already being held against him, he's either never officially claimed them or Guinness have rejected his claims due a lake of verifying evidence. The only thing he can claim is he went on a long bike ride and rode more than the person listed in the record books, he won't however be ever listed in those books.

It's disrespectful of the people who legitimately hold the records (and dishonest) to claim records for which you have no claim.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #659 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:15:55 pm »
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void

But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #660 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:16:07 pm »
My suspicion is that he has, or believes he has, beaten the records, but hasn't done any of the tedious paperwork.

There's a logical inconsistency with Bruce's apparent approach to validation and his approach to claiming [Guinness] records, even if leaving aside the trust issues around not having a live tracker, etc.

His approach seems to be that he'll provide distance/power files (and perhaps witness logs and photographs). If we allow, for the sake of argument and as appears to be his view, that this is sufficient to claim a Guinness Record, then simply looking at Kurt/Steve's publicly available Strava data should show him that each of them has exceeded his own, self-asserted Guinness Month Record. In other words, it's inconsistent to simultaneously a) claim to hold the Guinness Month Record whilst apparently b) thinking that all that's needed for certification for the Guinness Year Record is distance/power on Strava: if (b) is true then (a) is not viable.

I do presume that he's doing the distance, but I also think the paradigm where asserting "I have record X", often enough and publicly enough, leads to a de facto position where he is thought to really have record X is quite ..... unfortunate.

(The above points have all been made previously on the thread, but the key thing I wanted to express was the internal inconsistency in his apparent approach to the various records he's claiming and may claim in future.)

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #661 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:42:02 pm »
2 things from the quote from Sore Tween:

Rule number 2: The same bike must be used throughout the attempt - Kurt switched from upright to recumbent regularly

Rule number 8: Drafting - plenty of video coverage of Kurt drafting

So if Kurt's record has been accepted by Guinness then those 2 rules are null and void

But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!

But to accept Kurt's ride as the Guinness record and then assert rules of no pacing and one bike for the year would be unfair to future challengers.

It also doesn't say that you can't have different start/finish locations for each days ride - you just have to log where you start and where you finish a day's ride. 'Journey' in rule 6 appears to relate to the day's ride (again Kurt jumped into the van and drove to different locations where riding conditions were more favourableon a few occasions). Rule 10c states rest days need to be logged so a flight to another country could be recorded as such.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #662 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:46:26 pm »
But to accept Kurt's ride as the Guinness record and then assert rules of no pacing and one bike for the year would be unfair to future challengers.

Guinness have a long history of changing their minds on the rules and just disallowing previous record holders. They've done this several times over for the round the world record.

It has been suggested (but I've seen nothing official) that Guinness want UMCA to do the rule-setting for the hamr. That makes sense.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #663 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:50:57 pm »
But Kurt didn't ride under Guinness rules, he rode under UMCA. If Guinness retrospectively decide to accredit UMCA records, that's up to them. I've no doubt that if there's a close tie between Bruce and Kurt, Guinness will somehow differentiate the rides to allow for the fact they were ridden under different criteria. That's assuming Guinness do ratify Bruce's ride - as we know, he's already transgressed on the 'drafting' thing, and he's going to have to somehow explain how he got from Australia to UK starting each day where he finished the last!!

Ride onto the plane and off again at LHR?
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Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #664 on: 25 January, 2016, 01:59:34 pm »
The Guinness rules posted above do not prevent you relocating by aeroplane. It only talks about getting lifts from a support vehicle that is following you. To me that doesn't even preclude getting a lift to somewhere else at the end of the day from someone (as long as they haven't been following you as a support vehicle during the day).

And, again, Kajsa (who has been meticulous about following the Guinness rules) plans on riding in Sweden and Denmark during her year so I doubt Bruce's planned relocations will be a problem.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #665 on: 25 January, 2016, 02:55:41 pm »
Bruce is coming across as a conceited fantasist

IMV this was not rude, it was a statement of fact borne out by ample evidence.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #666 on: 25 January, 2016, 02:58:23 pm »
The Guinness rules posted above do not prevent you relocating by aeroplane. It only talks about getting lifts from a support vehicle that is following you. To me that doesn't even preclude getting a lift to somewhere else at the end of the day from someone (as long as they haven't been following you as a support vehicle during the day).

And, again, Kajsa (who has been meticulous about following the Guinness rules) plans on riding in Sweden and Denmark during her year so I doubt Bruce's planned relocations will be a problem.

No, I'm sure they won't be. And nor will the drafting he took from Team Sky and some other World Tour team - and I've no doubt he'll ride with other people through the year. If Guinness ratify his ride as a record, no doubt some caveat will be attached to say it was under some variation of the rules. Guinness (and UCMA) are quite good at having various records for essentially the same thing, either through age or some other criteria. None of that really matters a jot. If the ride is ratified, and he goes further than Kurt, he'll have the record. If he doesn't, he won't. And if he can't be arsed to do the paperwork properly, he'll not deserve to have any record.

hillbilly

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #667 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:18:24 pm »
Road.cc have confirmed guinness are officiating Bruce's attempt

Not quite.  Guinness Records have said that they will consider the evidence when submitted.  That's a very bland statement on their part.  What is missing is any statement that relying on Strava alone is adequate for them to accept his personal claim.  This is entirely different to officiating his "record" attempt.

Quote
, whether Bruce is ticking all the i's and crossing all the t's is absolutely irrelevant to anybody on this forum, as long you trust he is legitimately putting in the miles, what's it matter?

It matters because any record attempt has to have adequate oversight to carry authority and validity.  To be undisputed.  It remains to be seen whether simply posting to Strava is adequate.  I would like to trust Bruce, but fundamentally I don't know him from Adam.  Most of us have an innate faith and hope for the decency of sportspeople, particularly in the amateur arena.  But that trust is littered with broken promises and sharp practice, which is why governing bodies are important.

As others have pointed out, there is also the question of where the line is drawn if the attempt is not continually overseen by an official body throughout the year, but is instead retro-fitted to evidence that Guinness may not understand can be tampered with relatively easily.

Just because Bruce wants something to be so, does not mean it is right or that it should be accepted.  A record attempt is carried out by individuals, but the record itself belongs to a wider community.

YMMV.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #668 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:22:10 pm »
Did Bruce actually say he is the guinness record holder? I've seen him say he beat the Guinness records, which is true, but have not seen him say he holds the Guinness record.

All I see is a guy riding huge miles daily with the intention of riding more than has ever been ridden before. Why so much hate towards the man. If he's happy to do so with the possibility neither Guinness nor umca will officiate it, so what? Why does it irk people so much. He still rode those miles.

I would of thought Bruce's style would appear to many. A man who simply gets on his bike and rides, no team, no camper van, no rules (potentially).

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #669 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:30:21 pm »
Where is the hate? If he does the necessary riding and complies with the rules, he gets the record. If he doesn't, he just rides a long way for his own amusement. Nothing wrong with that.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #670 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:31:32 pm »
I could understand if Bruce had asked for peoples investment either through money or time. Rather he's just riding his bike and posting on his social media accounts. I just can't understand why people would waste their time with so much negativity over the guy.

Why not just give him the benefit of the doubt, and if his mileage never gets officiated, then judge. Unless I'm mistaken, Godwin's mileage was only officiated by a cycling magazine? Hardly fair to tar Bruce with potential fake data on strava but accept the record of a guy who's attempt had far more possibilities for corruption.

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #671 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:32:05 pm »
Where is the hate? If he does the necessary riding and complies with the rules, he gets the record. If he doesn't, he just rides a long way for his own amusement. Nothing wrong with that.

There's a lot of snidey comments throughout the thread.

hillbilly

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #672 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:35:03 pm »
His approach does appeal.  Greatly.  But it makes his efforts a praiseworthy and audacious year on his bike(s).

Many people on this forum are members of AUK (me included) for which the codification, validation and registration of rides is an important aspect that distinguishes our type of cycling (audax) from simply being a bike ride.  I don't pretend to speak for audax riders, or for there to be a homogeneous consensus for such things, but I'd be surprised if I were the only member to be concerned that something so unimportant, and yet so important, as recording who has officially ridden the most in a 365 day period is left to the demands of someone who is choosing their own rules (in effect).

I suspect Bruce is a great guy.  Probably a bit of a pain in the arse from time to time, like most competitive atheletes, but fundamentally a good guy that you'd want to share a beer with.  But in my opinion the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or some other cliché!)

I can see this one rumbling on.  A storm in the tea cup of endurance cycling.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #673 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:35:52 pm »
I think that riding that far and not getting the record is a waste of time but he can suit himself. Any time you measure yourself against an existing record, you are implicitly opening yourself to comparisons. There is no way around that fact.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: New challenger - Bruce Berkeley AKA Cycle_dr 1
« Reply #674 on: 25 January, 2016, 03:40:33 pm »
I think that riding that far and not getting the record is a waste of time but he can suit himself. Any time you measure yourself against an existing record, you are implicitly opening yourself to comparisons. There is no way around that fact.

He's a guy who I believed suffered/suffers with depression, maybe personal sense of achievement is enough for him. I'm sure he would love an official record, but he seems content enough without it as well.

If its a waste of time to you, that's fair enough. I'm sure you'll continue to follow him and post your opinion often enough however.