Cross Training: Running

[Frenchie]

Only because I was breathing down your neck all the way round!

I didn't see hear you! 

[NikW]

So are any of you planning on running any events in 2010. 

I am number 2556 in the Milton Keynes Half Marathon next weekend.
I ran a 10k in about 50 minutes about 3 weeks ago. That was bad enough. I'll try and take things easier in the half marathon though. I only want to finish and am not to fussed about time. I'm not really used to running so I'm using this to get used to it rather than test myself, but I'll probably end up going too hard.
I want to build up to something more extreme by the end of the year. I like the idea of the 3 day event that Andy had a go at last year. That'd be a good thing to work up to. Only to finish though, just for the fun of it.

I ran the other, smaller, NSPCC Milton Keynes Half last year and really 'enjoyed' it.  Apart from all them cycle paths there was a park and a lake and stuff and the nearest thing to a hill was the climb up from path to road.  1:52 something which was a PB at the time, only 25 minutes behind the rest of our club.  It felt huge with 1200 odd runners - the March one is much bigger.

Your legs are going to hurt you know! 

[DrMekon]

I used to run regularly, but not since my son was born 4 years ago. I figured that commuting 14 miles each way would mean I'd be back to running 15km immediately. How wrong I was. I bailed at 6.5km. Two days later, I can still only just walk down the stairs. Bizarrely, my legs feel fine  on the bike.

[Greenbank]

I used to run regularly, but not since my son was born 4 years ago. I figured that commuting 14 miles each way would mean I'd be back to running 15km immediately. How wrong I was. I bailed at 6.5km. Two days later, I can still only just walk down the stairs. Bizarrely, my legs feel fine  on the bike.

It just goes to show how running and cycling use a considerably different set of muscles. My legs feel knackered after playing 5-a-side for an hour but I still manage to put in a fast 12km commute home each time.

[border-rider]

Hill running and riding fixed seems to have a bit of an overlap.

I can still ride a bike with  legs tired from running, but leg braking hurts.  A lot.

[Sigurd Mudtracker]

My plan is to be fit enough to do some long sorties in the PD to do more of the runs on this list:
Home - Peak Trail Runner
I have done a few last year and really enjoyed myself, running typically 2.5 hours on those I did but as long at 3.5 hours on one run. Speed is not the issue over such terrain and length, but navigation, feeding and fun are the secret of the game.

I am retired form road racing "for good" I think. Too hard. I used to do halves in 79' to 84' 10 years ago. I did a local 5 Mi in 35' last year without specific training. Felt okay, but did I enjoy it? I am not sure.

Fell (or hill - depending where you are in the UK) is much more laid back than road racing though there's always the competitive in there somewhere.  It's much easier to relax at the back of the field and enjoy the scenery than is the case when you're pounding round some anonymous town centre.  I gave up road racing 20 years ago except for the odd particularly scenic run or for a specific purpose (eg chasing a 10 mile time).

I can also run for several hours and not feel too bad, but trying the same thing on a bike is much harder!

[NikW]

First time I cycled back from a run race where I'd given it my best I found sitting on the bike really, really uncomfy -  like I imagine it would be after a few hard boots up the posterior.   I think the muscles I was relying on for padding were the very same I'd just wrecked running.

[Frenchie]

In triathlon the bike to run transition can be, in my limited experience, quite painful. I have no experience of doing it the other way round; I used to run to and back from my club/track to warm up/down...

[teethgrinder]

Your legs are going to hurt you know! 

Yup.
That's why I'm not woried about a time. I reckon I'm fit enought to get under 2 hours quite easily, but my legs aren't up to it. I'll just try to survive. There are supposed to be about 5000 runners, so I should bag some company at the back of the field.

Hill running and riding fixed seems to have a bit of an overlap.

I find running uphill much more comfortable than on the flat and even better than running downhill. On a 10k fun run about 5 years ago I was passing everyone on the uphills because it was easy, but everyone passed me on the downhill.

[David Martin]

Lovely run in today. Still, dead quiet, clear winters dawn with a heavy frost. Great views off the hill up and down the Tay Estuary.

Used the HRM logger and was surprised at how high the pulse was (mostly in zone 4) as I didn't think I was trying that hard, but that could be the effect of blood donoring yesterday.

[andygates]

Running downhill is a fairly specific skill, you gotta practice it.  I don't have it... a friend who does is an absolute streak.  Cadence and a lack of fear seem to factor.

[Frenchie]

Running downhill is a fairly specific skill, you gotta practice it.  I don't have it... a friend who does is an absolute streak.  Cadence and a lack of fear seem to factor.

Big strides too. Oh, and "black" nails!

[Rich753]

Big quads help too.

[teethgrinder]

I think it's also that the tendons in my legs are very tight too. I can run up stairs faster than I can run down them.
I should really do more some stretching.

[Rich753]

It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!

[teethgrinder]

It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!

I might try that going down the stairs at work tomorrow, if I remember and am not carrying my coffee. I can always grab the rail if it goes tits up.
I do tend to lean back when I descend. I probably think I'm on my bike.

[NikW]

It's a dumb trick to offer advice without actually seeing you in action, but I'm going to do it anyway ...

There are two tricks to running downhill quickly - keep your weight forward and look well ahead .

Not rocket science and much easier to say than implement, becos' most people have a genuine and sensible reluctance to "let themselves go" feeling that they will be out of control and also that they quite want to see what they are putting their feet on next.

Tight tendons/muscles are unlikely to be a factor - most hill/fell runners I know are pretty inflexible!

I enjoy running downhill off-road, like Rich says don't resist your weight and keep your eyes open.

Shouldn't you have mentioned the bit about it being nigh on impossible to stop quickly at the bottom though Rich!  I do hope Teethgrinder has got a clear run at the bottom of his stairs 

[andygates]

That "letting yourself go" bit is what I stick on.  Not least because as a bifter I genuinely worry that I'll accelerate beyond my ability to stop or keep up, and cartwheel down the hill shedding kit and teeth.

Practice practice practice...

[Rich753]

Yeah, it's a valid worry, it's very easy to describe and much harder to implement

I try and stay light on my feet and not take long strides, but fastish cadence. The thing about looking forward helps as well - gives you advance warning of hazards so more notice to stop or adjust course.

The likes of Jack "falling stone" Maitland or Andy "speed kills" Styan look just manic on descents but they are very controlled - relaxed and concentrating like crazy.

[Frenchie]

I would support Rich's comment to a point; I have always been told to run long strides, barely bouncing of the hill surface, looking ahead and planning one's course, and letting go. Hard to do. Resisting makes it more painful. I am bad at it and tend to do what Rich reports, fast, smaller strides; but I can't keep up with the fast guys.

[Rich753]

I would support Rich's comment to a point; I have always been told to run long strides, barely bouncing of the hill surface, looking ahead and planning one's course, and letting go. Hard to do.

Agreed, this is close to perfect form, but only if you land midfoot with your weight moving forward, ie not braking.

If you overstride and land on your heel there a risk of it going away from you

(btw I consider myself a poor descender, too much of a chicken, but still managed top ten in British Championship short races - so it's very possible to train yourself up to a reasonable level)

[mattc]

Are we avoiding the Elephant (descending behind us) In The Room here?

Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

<\boring old fart>

p.s. a mate of mine left me for dead by running straight down this (in walking boots):
Maps of the world, street map search - powered by Multimap
(descent SE off Great Gable - at least 300m down)

--------------------
Edit: Just remembered the business about eccentric* contractions etc.
Normal running:
you supply a small force to cushion your landing, then
a LARGE force to spring away.

Descending:
LARGE force to cushion each landing, then
fairly small force to spring away (cos gravity does all the work)

IIRC training your muscles will give them strength in the 1 direction you use most
i.e. until you've descended a lot, your muscles won't be strong in that kind of work. This may make you very injury-prone.

[*I've forgotten all the right jargon to use here ]

[Sigurd Mudtracker]

I'm a very cautious descender - usually lose a lot of places on the descent as a result.  The flipside is that on a race with a few ups and downs I can sometimes haul in those that passed me on the descent on the following ascent.  On more "gentle" descents with a secure surface I can let it rip but it does take a lot out of me.

My race tactics usually involve getting to the top as fast as possible and hoping I don't lose too many places on the way down.  If I may be briefly immodest, it worked quite well for me when I was young and fit.

[teethgrinder]

I tried leaning forward a bit on a descent. Definitely faster.
A bit like riding fixed in a lowish gear when you're not used to it though. It did feel like I was chasing to keep up with myself.
I think I need to practice more.
I definitely need to toughen up my legs for the landing, so it' probably worth me getting a few hills in, or at least using the landscaping of Milton Keynes. Plenty of steep grassy banks for me to run up and down.

[NikW]

Humans aren't very well designed for descending (monkeys climb down trees); running downhill seems like a massive increase in load on the joints, even done slowly. Not being competitive, and already suffering from running gently on the flat, I'm therefore inclined to descend very steadily indeed.

I'm not convinced that humans are that well designed for running at all, animals that stuck to using all four limbs seem to be better at it.  I guess we had to learn to run on two legs to escape predators when we came down from the trees but now we are civilised we've realised it easier just to make them extinct instead.

By putting your weight forward running down hill and not resisting I think you actually lessen the impact as you are using the energy as momentum as you roll onto your midfoot and onwards towards the next step rather than absorbing the whole thud as you effectively stop between each footfall, probably by digging your heel in.  If my legs are tired or it's steep or slippery I'm usually too scared to let myself go and find I end up jolting myself about more by being cautious.  Obviously it ceases to be a sensible option if you fall over or crash into something.

The guy in red/black trousers (the winner?) at last years <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/KOyQBSMeIhM&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/KOyQBSMeIhM&rel=1</a> demonstrates quite a good style (though a lot of the others seem to manage with their feet hardly touching the ground).