[LEL17] Waiting list 100 hours

[alfapete]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

Didn't you know, the £50's are all being collected up for the controller's piss up afterwards

[LMT]

Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out,  after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place.  I do accept that if we  have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that  we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility  .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough  money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

For a start, surely as a rider you would want the numbers riding to be as high as possible.
I damn sure wouldn't even consider LEL if the predicted number of riders was say 50... so I don't know why you're complaining that it's oversubscribed as that'll mean more people's company, more friends to make, more groups to draft, generally bigger event, etc.

The only way you would have a valid beef with the model is if they could potentially turn you away even having booked, like a hotel might, but I'm fairly sure that won't happen.

So are you basically saying you now don't want to ride, but you're going to put yourself through 1,400km of pain anyway purely because you don't want "them" to have made a £50 admin fee out of you ? 

Out of principle I want to ride, but won't be doing any further LEL's. I'm not to bothered about numbers, drafting etc, this does not appeal to me.

The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full. Fidgetbuzz alluded to this in one of his posts regarding the admin work for doing one in, one out being counter productive. So instead you sell more spaces that you have on the assumption that some will drop out, those that do drop out you keep £50 of their refund. If the ride remains oversubscribed this place won't go to anyone else. So effectively you have made £50 off the back of doing nothing, other than a couple of e-mails and pushing a few buttons to do a bank transfer of a refund back to the principle.

[mattc]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

Didn't you know, the £50's are all being collected up for the controller's piss up afterwards

Hopefully he will read this and realise how selfish he is being by insisting on riding.

[Phil W]

LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

off the back of doing nothing

Does the first bit mean peace will be restored in the land in about an hour?

You are funny, myself, Danial, and Roger plus all the controllers and volunteers have all fallen about laughing as we do exactly nothing to make LEL happen.

[LMT]

LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.

off the back of doing nothing

Does the first bit mean peace will be restored in the land in about an hour?

You are funny, myself, Danial, and Roger plus all the controllers and volunteers have all fallen about laughing as we do exactly nothing to make LEL happen.

Not exactly what I said was it brao? Nice cherry pick.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.

[Phil W]

His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.

Which is what he agreed to when he entered

[Karla]

A non-refundable deposit is a good way of stopping piss-takers entering and then dropping out thobut.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Yes PW and his point is that the shuffling isn't actually occurring now. It is a case now of overfilling and letting natural attrition occur, which involves a little less work and a bit more organiser discretion than 'the next one on the waiting list'.

Just for clarity, I don't particularly care how things are actually being done but it is slightly different than originally stated. With this much demand for this event, there were always going to be 'deserving folk' that miss out. The compromise chosen seems reasonable to me.

[Fidgetbuzz]

I really do find some posts  come from a complete lack of appreciation  of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event.  This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be  busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking.  LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making  £50 a time, by some underhand method.  NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here??  . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund .  Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs .. ( barriers .. ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 )  .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a  50% increase on 2013 .....  did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ?  All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc  have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant  amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.

If you really do not like the way that the event is run  and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out  now , rather than suffer  another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.

[Fidgetbuzz]

His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.

It is nothing like as simple as that LWB .. think it through .. A pulls out .. go to number 1 .. do you want the place or not .. no immediate  reply .. chase .. pay by .. doesnt .. PAY NOW or it goes to number 2 .. .. changed my mind family pressures etc etc and there could be something like 20 of these going on at any one time . Nightmare lasting several weeks to achieve virtually nothing .. I would not do it if I was being paid the £50 for each cancellation.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

As I said, the selected method seems reasonable to me but the pedants are correct when they say "It is different to what you said". In reality, that difference is irrelevant to those who've already entered.

[jsabine]

My recollection was that the original waiting list info said you would have to pay in full at the point of going on the list (obviously with the promise of a full refund if your place on the ride was not confirmed). That made sense to me both in terms of ensuring that people were committed to the ride, and in reducing admin faff.

I think I prefer this way though: at least everyone who has paid has certainty that they will be able to ride.

[Fidgetbuzz]

true .. indeed LWB .. and it may be that people do not like the order that WE have chosen for the overbooked places .. missing tandem  riders, women  etc ,, but the reserve list was always going to be a headache to administer .. where am I on the list .. but that is not fair .. the international time difference meant that I could not apply for a place on the list straight away etc etc etc etc .  So considerable admin work saved .. extra offers in accordance with our priorities .. I don think there is anything untoward here.

[Wycombewheeler]

in response to LMT's comment that those who missed out should have planned better

I hink I've been a member since November 2015, not early enough. Had I been offered the choice when joining I would happily have paid for the whole of 2015 to qualify for a place. It was not an option.

As I only became aware of audax in summer 2p15, joining earlier was not an option, and I have no idea when the LEL site went live.

This is no criticism of the organisers, or complaint. They are free to set what rules they wish and nothing they have done is unreasonable.

As it turns out I decided not to enter, but up until December it was a real possibility that I would try.

Much less reasonable are those who don't seem very keen to ride but have taken up a space.

[Bairn Again]

I really do find some posts  come from a complete lack of appreciation  of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event.  This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be  busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking.  LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making  £50 a time, by some underhand method.  NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here??  . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund .  Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs ..  barriers ( ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 )  .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a  50% increase on 2013 .....  did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ?  All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc  have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant  amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.

If you really do not like the way that the event is run  and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out  now , rather than suffer  another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.

Well said. 

and of course if LMT had really thought about it he'd realise that its riders who actually benefit from the fact the event spends the money from those £50 refunds so your entry fee goes further <if you ride>.  Eminently sensible as are the LEL arrangements for refunds. 

Anybody who has organised an audax will know there is normally a circa 10% DNS and another 10% DNF.  Ive used the former to stick a fiver in each riders brevet card.  Hope LMT doesnt enter any of my events. 

[fuaran]

Seems like you need a better entry system, which could automatically handle withdrawals, refunds, offering it to the next person on the waiting list etc. Without creating any extra work for the organisers.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Several smaller LRM brevets have operated waiting lists, some listed publicly. There has almost always been some degree of organiser discretion, regardless of whether the waiting list was published, and I think that is a good thing.

I look forward to riding with LMT; he sounds like an interesting person to chat with. Some of my best riding friends can be a bit pedantic sometimes.

[vorsprung]

Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.

The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.   
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?

As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.

Surely with the demand that was seen four year ago, and the increase in 'adventure cycling' over the last couple of years with longer rides/races getting more exposure one could see that this event would end up over subscribed?

And TBH I have no empathy regarding those that did not get a place. IIRC the website went up a while ago, it was explicitly stated that if you were a member of AUK at a certain time then you would get a place. With a wee bit of planning and foresight it would not be difficult to get a place.

Can we not ban this troll?

[Fidgetbuzz]

My recollection was that the original waiting list info said you would have to pay in full at the point of going on the list (obviously with the promise of a full refund if your place on the ride was not confirmed).

You are correct .. but carefully considered it did not seem to me that this would get enough people on to the reserve list to match the number of withdrawals that we projected . So I persuaded DW to drop that requirement .. maybe I was wrong .. but I was not certain that we would sell out .. so to exceed 1500 and get another xxx people putting up £319 hoping that people would drop out .. just seemed unfeasible to me . So now we have taken extra numbers knowing that there will be drop outs . Currently there are some of the £100 deposit payers who have not followed though .. despite 2 reminders  .. some AUk entries are changing their minds before even paying .. this is a complex situation to judge what will happen .. we are only trying to do our best, bringing our 2013 experience to bear

[Fidgetbuzz]

Seems like you need a better entry system, which could automatically handle withdrawals, refunds, offering it to the next person on the waiting list etc. Without creating any extra work for the organisers.

I think you could well be right here .. that will be for the 2021 team to explore

[LMT]

I really do find some posts  come from a complete lack of appreciation  of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event.  This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be  busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking.  LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making  £50 a time, by some underhand method.  NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here??  . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund .  Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs ..  barriers ( ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 )  .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a  50% increase on 2013 .....  did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ?  All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc  have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant  amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.

If you really do not like the way that the event is run  and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out  now , rather than suffer  another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.

Well said. 

and of course if LMT had really thought about it he'd realise that its riders who actually benefit from the fact the event spends the money from those £50 refunds so your entry fee goes further <if you ride>.  Eminently sensible as are the LEL arrangements for refunds. 

Anybody who has organised an audax will know there is normally a circa 10% DNS and another 10% DNF.  Ive used the former to stick a fiver in each riders brevet card.  Hope LMT doesnt enter any of my events.

The £50 fee technically is deferred income, although a provision would also need to be made for the refunds that are issued (this could be based on what has been done in the past), and then the delay in transferring the place (if undersubscribed) and receiving payment from the next rider. All this should have been accounted and budgeted for at the planning stage. So really the £50 does not go any further per se. Although some outside portaloos at the controls would not amiss so I don't have to stand at a urinal in my socks.

[Fidgetbuzz]

Some posts are sane and some are not.

[Bairn Again]

deferred income eh?  Maybe 25% should be avaiable tax free

[rob]

I look forward to riding with LMT; he sounds like an interesting person to chat with. Some of my best riding friends can be a bit pedantic sometimes.

Do you have the necessary w/kg to keep up ?