300km event for a mere £159

[mattc]

Which brings me back to my original post: the demand for a TLC 300 is so great that some people are prepared to pay £159(!!) to enter. Clearly folks are happy to fork out similarly eye-watering amounts for much shorter events as long, it seems, that they have the word "sportive" in the title.

Your premise is seriously flawed; their customers are not paying for a TLC 300k audax. here is just 1 page I've found of what they will get:

We are there ahead of you, behind you and alongside you on the route
•All baggage transfers from start to finish
•On route mechanical support
•On route motorbike outriders
•Fully signed route
•Pit stops with food, toilets, mechanical and medical support
•Chaperone riders along the full route
•Event timing
•Broom wagon
•Police bike marking at start and finish

Very different animal. No 300k or 400k audax has been delivered ( in my time) with those features.

[Greenbank]

Indeed, it seems a bit more than twice as expensive (per km) as LEL 2017 was. No great surprise for a corporate event.

£319 / 1400 =~ 23p/km
£159 / 300 =~ 53p/km

And for some things you get more support: broom wagon, on route mechanical support (although LEL had this to some extent it specifically warned people not to rely on it and to rely on some mechnical help at controls only), fully signed route (compared with ~25% for LEL), finishers massage, etc.

[whosatthewheel]

Both official timing and signposted route are becoming less important, as people like comparing moving time and everybody has a GPS these days, so all these features come automatically.
Marshalling is not a deal breaker, unless the event is very high speed, like RL100. Broomwagon and mechanical support also are not a priority. Moral of the story, lots of sportive riders are interested in TLC brevets... nobody minds having a card stamped at a control, but they can't be bothered to deal with the uncertainty of commercial controls (how long will it take? Will I find a seat? Will the food suck?) and with the hassle of info controls.

In essence a National style event would be very popular indeed

[jsabine]

In 2018 the only TLC events in the calendar are 400 km or over

That's simply not true - just among events I've ridden in previous years, Brazier's Run is TLC+infos, Manotea's Ditchling Devil offers plenty of TLC, with the only commercial control being the finish pub, and while the Fairies Flat 300 uses a couple of commercial controls, the other four are fully catered.

[whosatthewheel]

In 2018 the only TLC events in the calendar are 400 km or over

That's simply not true - just among events I've ridden in previous years, Brazier's Run is TLC+infos, Manotea's Ditchling Devil offers plenty of TLC, with the only commercial control being the finish pub, and while the Fairies Flat 300 uses a couple of commercial controls, the other four are fully catered.

Admittedly I have based my conclusions on the entry fee. Just for curiosity, how is possible to offer full TLC on a 300 with an entry fee of 9 quid?

[Neil C]

Just for curiosity, how is possible to offer full TLC on a 300 with an entry fee of 9 quid?

I rode the Fairies 300 in 2016. I think the answer is lots of generous volunteers, home made cakes and sandwiches and maybe even a subsidy from the organising club.

As a full value rider one of the commercial controls was shut by the time I got there but a couple of volunteers had set up their motorhome outside and were offering free food and drink to the riders - I don't think you would get that on a commercial sportive.

Kingston Wheelers' Audaxes also have lots of TLC for very little money.

The 400 has two breakfasts, a dinner and the option of two nights accommodation for £12. The 600 costs a few pounds more but adds in a bag drop and a BBQ.

Why go anywhere else?

[Greenbank]

And that's the thing, volunteers providing the food doesn't scale to events with 500+ riders so these types of sportives or big charity rides have to spend money for catering (and the event price quickly rises).

The Fairies 300 probably couldn't run at £9/head if it attracted 500 entrants.

[whosatthewheel]

Just for curiosity, how is possible to offer full TLC on a 300 with an entry fee of 9 quid?

I rode the Fairies 300 in 2016. I think the answer is lots of generous volunteers, home made cakes and sandwiches and maybe even a subsidy from the organising club.

As a full value rider one of the commercial controls was shut by the time I got there but a couple of volunteers had set up their motorhome outside and were offering free food and drink to the riders - I don't think you would get that on a commercial sportive.

Kingston Wheelers' Audaxes also have lots of TLC for very little money.

The 400 has two breakfasts, a dinner and the option of two nights accommodation for £12. The 600 costs a few pounds more but adds in a bag drop and a BBQ.

Why go anywhere else?

Because if you don't live in London it might be impossible to park a car in Kingston? Because it might take you 3 hours to get in/out of London via the M3?

I used to live in Richmond, I know what I am talking about ... 

[Greenbank]

Because if you don't live in London it might be impossible to park a car in Kingston? Because it might take you 3 hours to get in/out of London via the M3?

I used to live in Richmond, I know what I am talking about ... 

True, you may convince yourself it's impossible if you decide you have to take your car.

(I know some people have genuine reasons for needing a car to get to an Audax, but most don't, it's just easier.)

[whosatthewheel]

Because if you don't live in London it might be impossible to park a car in Kingston? Because it might take you 3 hours to get in/out of London via the M3?

I used to live in Richmond, I know what I am talking about ... 

True, you may convince yourself it's impossible if you decide you have to take your car.

(I know some people have genuine reasons for needing a car to get to an Audax, but most don't, it's just easier.)

I think a return train ticket to London would set me back around 30 quid... and only get me as far as Marylebone and of course I'd have to spend two nights away from home to do 300 km on the bike. With a car I can leave early and come back late and even spend less in petrol...

Randonneur doesn't have to mean stray...

[mattc]

Just for curiosity, how is possible to offer full TLC on a 300 with an entry fee of 9 quid?

I rode the Fairies 300 in 2016. I think the answer is lots of generous volunteers, home made cakes and sandwiches and maybe even a subsidy from the organising club.

As a full value rider one of the commercial controls was shut by the time I got there but a couple of volunteers had set up their motorhome outside and were offering free food and drink to the riders - I don't think you would get that on a commercial sportive.

[My bold]
Exactly!  Audax is part of the grass-roots, people-helping-each-other ethos. [See Wiggo's reference to time trial tombolas on the Champs Elyses].

Sportives - GENERALLY* - are not. They are part of the cycling-as-the-new-golf paradigm. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not something that Audax aligns very well with.


*Please note that word before writing a knee-jerk response ...

[Veloman]

I think it's worth pointing out (yes, I know it's obvious) that sportives are run for the purpose of making a profit. Therefore I think that it's possible to run a 300-with-TLC for much less than £159.

Which begs the question of how much TLC is required and what is a reasonable cost?

[Exit Stage Left]

Organisers and volunteers seem to be recruited from long term riders. It's a good way of paying back the generosity of those who organised rides in the past. So if there's growth in participation, the volunteer pool won't keep up with the growth.

When I started Audax there were plenty of older volunteers from the cycling boom years of the 40s and 50s, servicing those from the 70s and 80s booms. The ratio of volunteers to riders isn't always going to be in phase. So there's no reason to believe that AUK is going to be able to cope with demand in a period when cycling is popular.

However, the remit of AUK is to encourage long distance cycling. There seems to be plenty of that on offer at present, albeit at a higher price than if AUK had a surfeit of volunteers. The likeliest outcome is probably a growth in group perms.

[Charlie Polecat]

I come back to the 'apparent' cost of staging a brevet which from gleaning through these columns is suggested to be a deterrent. I recognise some organisers 'put on a show' and attract many riders from outside the Audax community because of the attractive package at a low cost compared with a sportive and I also recognise this puts off some potential organisers who may feel they have to 'step up to the plate' and do likewise. Mandating a 'no frills brevet' system would make this a level playing field and possibly bring more organisers back into the fold.

I also recognise from various comments here and on the AUK forum that the AUDAX board is likely to provide absolutely nothing in the way of leadership on this issue.

[Wobbly]

Your premise is seriously flawed; their customers are not paying for a TLC 300k audax. here is just 1 page I've found of what they will get:

We are there ahead of you, behind you and alongside you on the route
•All baggage transfers from start to finish
•On route mechanical support
•On route motorbike outriders
•Fully signed route
•Pit stops with food, toilets, mechanical and medical support
•Chaperone riders along the full route
•Event timing
•Broom wagon
•Police bike marking at start and finish

Very different animal. No 300k or 400k audax has been delivered ( in my time) with those features.

Matt, mate, I'm asking for a National SR Series. An "uplift in TLC" on just four rides. Food/drink at controls. I'm not saying that a National 300 has to copy any particular sportive. I'm saying that people are prepared to pay huuuge sums of money (by Audax standards) for a 300.

There is an untapped audience.

There are sportive riders and potential sportive riders who do not realise they would *love* Audax. Why on earth wouldn't we tempt them with a full TLC ride?

I'm asking for an SR series that takes in England, Scotland and Wales. That promotes Audax. That is promoted by AUK. That benefits us all.

[Grandad]

Quote from: whosatthewheel on Yesterday at 03:29:09 pm
Just for curiosity, how is possible to offer full TLC on a 300 with an entry fee of 9 quid?

I rode the Fairies 300 in 2016. I think the answer is lots of generous volunteers, home made cakes and sandwiches and maybe even a subsidy from the organising club.

As the original organiser and now a helper I know that the club have never had to contribute to the cost of this, It has in effect been subsidised by the 4 shorter rides on the same day which have a lot more riders.

With increasing costs  - eg.hall up from £80 to £300 - this may change but no problem if it does.

[citoyen]

One fundamental feature of audax that would deter many riders no matter how much TLC you provide is the fact that the route isn't signposted. On-route mechanical and medical support are something that many sportive riders also consider an essential requirement.

The motivation for people to do an event like the London Revolution is very different as well. The focus is specifically on charity so it attracts a very different kind of rider to a typical audax. When I did the Ride Across Britain (same organisers), many of my fellow riders had taken up cycling less than a year prior to starting the event.

The chaperones are an interesting feature. On the RAB, they were great - providing copious assistance and guidance to less confident riders, as well as (lightly) policing rider behaviour on the road, and providing suitable company for even the fastest riders. They're all hugely experienced riders. One of them was a chap called Maurice Burton. Some of you may have heard of him.

Also the catering on the RAB was superb - I've had pretty good catering on many audaxes but nothing on that level. I'm sure that accounts for a significant part of the cost.

[IanDG]

It's £109 ride-only, £159 with camping (including tent) and £199 with camping and food and massage and "free buff".

It's a very different event though - it's all marshalled and supported.

£199 for a "free buff"? Cheaper than that in a Sandwell massage parlour.

Plus it's a charity ride. I allowed myself to get talked into it via a friend who works for Dulux (the sponsor) and we're doing The Ultra i.e. the whole lot in one go. Haven't done a 300km for a couple of years so am currently in training...

[jsabine]

I recognise some organisers 'put on a show' and attract many riders from outside the Audax community because of the attractive package at a low cost compared with a sportive and I also recognise this puts off some potential organisers who may feel they have to 'step up to the plate' and do likewise.

Some organisers choose to 'step up to the plate' and 'put on a show', some organisers choose to run X-rated events. Both types of event seem pretty popular with riders, so I don't think there's any real pressure on potential organisers to choose one route or the other.

Certainly the desultory thoughts I've had about a possible event focus more on running the sort of brevet I would want to ride, and on nicking good ideas from other organisers rather than feeling pressured to out-do them.

Mandating a 'no frills brevet' system would make this a level playing field and possibly bring more organisers back into the fold.

There is nothing at all preventing organisers running a no-frills brevet. Many successful and popular rides are just that - I don't think you can get much more barebones than iddu's Poor Student, with its car park start, commercial controls and postal finish - and even two of this year's 1000km events are in this category. But it's those organisers' choice to run them sans frills.

Mandating no-frills events - prohibiting TLC - would be a serious limitation on those organisers who choose to offer more, and on those riders who choose to take advantage of it.

[jsabine]

what about a special purpose company established by AUK to organise the entire range of rides.  In plain English, somebody with the event organising skills and means of accessing the necessary logistics, who is paid on a stipend to deliver a National SR series.  Think about the modus operandi of LEL.  Clealry the net result would be higher entry fees but that would have to be commensurate with the package provided to the entrants.

Funnily enough, at the last board meeting we touched *very* briefly on the idea of establishing a team of flying organisers/controllers who could support rides like the National 400 (or maybe even a National SR), and reduce the burden on the individual organiser. Local knowledge would be a bit of an obstacle though, and there's always a risk of it being seen as a takeover rather than as support.

[mattc]

Your premise is seriously flawed; their customers are not paying for a TLC 300k audax. here is just 1 page I've found of what they will get:

We are there ahead of you, behind you and alongside you on the route
•All baggage transfers from start to finish
•On route mechanical support
•On route motorbike outriders
•Fully signed route
•Pit stops with food, toilets, mechanical and medical support
•Chaperone riders along the full route
•Event timing
•Broom wagon
•Police bike marking at start and finish

Very different animal. No 300k or 400k audax has been delivered ( in my time) with those features.

Matt, mate, I'm asking for a National SR Series. An "uplift in TLC" on just four rides. Food/drink at controls. I'm not saying that a National 300 has to copy any particular sportive. I'm saying that people are prepared to pay huuuge sums of money (by Audax standards) for a 300.

There is an untapped audience.

There are sportive riders and potential sportive riders who do not realise they would *love* Audax. Why on earth wouldn't we tempt them with a full TLC ride?

I'm asking for an SR series that takes in England, Scotland and Wales. That promotes Audax. That is promoted by AUK. That benefits us all.

Yes of course there are riders that we haven't reached; but how many? It's between 3 and 3 million, I'd say. You've tried to show on this thread that it's loads - but you're using an irrelevant example of a completely differnt kind of ride. Why should this be convincing me?

Then there's the history of many mighty fine National 400s; succesful, for sure - but have they hugely influenced the growth of UK audaxing?

You tell me; backup your theory.

[whosatthewheel]

Some organisers choose to 'step up to the plate' and 'put on a show', some organisers choose to run X-rated events. Both types of event seem pretty popular with riders, so I don't think there's any real pressure on potential organisers to choose one route or the other.

True, but with a handful of full TLC events in a pool of 500 events, don't you think that the balance is skewed towards the x-rated?

As I said before, in 2018 over 90% of the membership will not be able to ride a single TLC event event if they really wanted to.

The LWL 400 sold out in hours and my understanding is that before it became a TLC event, that wasn't the case... so, are we really saying that the short supply of TLC events is a result of scarce demand for them?

[Exit Stage Left]

AUK could ask for quotes from commercial companies to put on a National series. With PBP on the horizon, there's a big enough market for more expensive events. AUK could allocate funds for someone to draw up a spec and assess quotes.

Alternatively, there could be a return to the postal-based entry system. It would have a retro charm, and weed out those of less serious intent.
 

[Paul H]

True, but with a handful of full TLC events in a pool of 500 events, don't you think that the balance is skewed towards the x-rated?

No, the vast majority are somewhere in between.
On most of the 200 and 300s I've done there's been plenty of TLC, catering and facilities at the start and finish, volunteers being on hand and card stamping at commercial controls in between.  I've only done on X rated ride, collected the card in a car park, posted it back at the end, it was more like a group permanent and about the same cost, I've no complaints, it was very clear what was on offer, but I don't think I'd do another.  I've only done one ride over 300, the 2016 National 400, the support was first class, but it was the out of hours stuff that really made it, hot food in the middle of the night, somewhere to sleep, early morning breakfast, all great stuff but I wouldn't miss it on a ride that didn't go overnight. 

[whosatthewheel]

  I've only done one ride over 300, the 2016 National 400, the support was first class, but it was the out of hours stuff that really made it, hot food in the middle of the night, somewhere to sleep, early morning breakfast, all great stuff but I wouldn't miss it on a ride that didn't go overnight.

Of course, anything under 300 and TLC becomes largely superfluous. Problem is, there aren't many 300+ events that offer that level of care. That is the main reason why many never step up from the comfortable 200 distance. The vast majority out there can complete a 200 in less than 10 hours with limited provision of food and be home for a proper dinner.
Like you, I only stepped up because the National 400 gave me that level of confidence that I had some mid way points to aim for, where I knew I could rest and get food without the faff of having to sort out things myself.