Author Topic: A-Road cycle provision  (Read 7837 times)

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
A-Road cycle provision
« on: 23 March, 2023, 03:51:44 pm »
before i head off tomorrow, this is gonna turn into a considerably overdistance 200 not helped by no trains from Chelmsford on Sunday;

are there any real no-noes? the Elveden dive under avoids a lot of the A11 it will be silly o clock in the morning

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/42114996

MsG

  • No hills in Fenland but lots of wind
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #1 on: 23 March, 2023, 04:21:49 pm »
The A road southbound out of Bury can be hairy with close passes.
And most of the roads out of Thetford similarly - though I appear not to have tried your east bound road so will be interested to see what it's like.
The Hingham  - Wymondham section I did yesterday and it was ok.

Woofage

  • Tofu-eating Wokerati
  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #2 on: 23 March, 2023, 04:53:43 pm »
You'll go right past my house <waves>

The B1066 Wheptsead Road from BSE can be a bit hairy but not terrible (I've cycled it loads of times in both directions). An alternative would be to continue South on Horsecroft Road towards Pinford End but you'd be adding a few km by doing this.

Also, when you turn right past Noodle King just go straight on over the roundabout. No need to take the detour through Holywater Meadows.
Pen Pusher

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #3 on: 23 March, 2023, 05:09:19 pm »
Thanks!  :thumbsup: shall I just stay on the A143? it all helps chip away at the distance

@MsG I find dual carriageways better than single A roads for East Anglia if I really have to use them, as long as I have a billion lumens rear light

Woofage

  • Tofu-eating Wokerati
  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #4 on: 23 March, 2023, 05:43:47 pm »
Yes, A143 as far as the traffic lights by Tesco Express and then rejoin your route as planned. It probably only saves 100m or so but it's more convenient.
Pen Pusher

Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #5 on: 23 March, 2023, 05:50:49 pm »
I've complained before about the total failure to consider cyclists while turning the A11 (the only real road towards Norwich in the area) into a motorway. Hopefully your silly o'clock will help, but otherwise I wouldn't fancy it, not that there's any sensible alternative.

MsG

  • No hills in Fenland but lots of wind
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #6 on: 23 March, 2023, 06:09:49 pm »
@MsG I find dual carriageways better than single A roads for East Anglia if I really have to use them, as long as I have a billion lumens rear light

There are some really numpty drivers around that stretch, particularly tired haulage / vans at yawn o'clock. Also a TTer was killed on the A11 last year.

However it will add quite a bit on if you divert.

I went Ely - Southery-Wissington-Northwold-Watton-Hingham-Wymondham-Norwich yesterday.
The alternatives such as Wangford - Brandon are horrid too.

Did you want any suggestions for cafes, bakeries etc or are you sorted?

Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #7 on: 23 March, 2023, 06:49:39 pm »
It would be helpful if you could state what time you are setting off and what your anticipated speeds will be.  Advice may vary greatly depending on time of day.
Clever enough to know I'm not clever enough.

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #8 on: 23 March, 2023, 07:00:17 pm »
It would be helpful if you could state what time you are setting off and what your anticipated speeds will be.  Advice may vary greatly depending on time of day.

setting off 0600 arriving 2200 latest (14.3kph) but the rest is in the hands of the Weather Gods who are currently smiling (in terms of wind direction anyway if not rain) there is only 5k (or 3 if I climb up to that lane that goes over on a bridge) on the DC A11 the rest is parallel

Did you want any suggestions for cafes, bakeries etc or are you sorted?

thanks but won't have time to do anything other than ride

Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #9 on: 24 March, 2023, 02:38:35 pm »
It goes past a couple of my old houses.

Any reason you’re wiggling through Fetfud rather than just following the road?

I wouldn’t ride the A11 between Barton Mills and Thetford, not even at 06:00, though I generally agree about dual carriageways v single carriageway A roads. Apparently there’s a lot of roadworks, still, on the A11 and it’s making drivers tetchy.

ETA there are no really good quiet routes out of Mildenhall except to Freckenham, which is one of the reasons I was always a bit ambivalent about the rally there.

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #10 on: 27 March, 2023, 12:22:54 am »
It goes past a couple of my old houses.

Any reason you’re wiggling through Fetfud rather than just following the road?


no that was a bit of RidewithGPSBalls  ::-) I just took the main road through to the A11 RAB.
The delightful road from Mildenhall ended at a gated last bit but was able to join the A11 for a horrid 3k  :( I climbed up the bank to the new bridge over then all OK past the memorial until I reached a large metal gate across the road and path, it auto-opened nicely to let me out but it appears it's all private no access and owned by the Elveden Estate.

Lots of Muntjacs  :)

I certainly paid for the NE tailwind all the way home with the first very damp 70k into the finest the North Sea can muster :'(

A few really skoggy lanes on the section to Norwich then a bloody eternity of cobbles to the cathedral (which is not as Wow as Ely, the best so far)

The rest was fine probably better on a Sunday it was busy but not too many knob end drivers. Hated the last bit into Chelmsford where they sort of gave up on the cyclepath (but that's not for this thread)

Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #11 on: 27 March, 2023, 07:32:11 pm »
I climbed up the bank to the new bridge over then all OK past the memorial until I reached a large metal gate across the road and path, it auto-opened nicely to let me out but it appears it's all private no access and owned by the Elveden Estate.
I thought that was adding insult to injury. Not only did the Highways Agency entirely fail to provide a highway for anyone not in a motor vehicle, they apparently gave away the existing one into private ownership, thus just adding to the length of the Elveden gap (from there to your gated road through Mildenhall woods). As far as I can see, this is the only serious candidate for a Cambridge-Norwich alignment.

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #12 on: 27 March, 2023, 09:16:49 pm »
I climbed up the bank to the new bridge over then all OK past the memorial until I reached a large metal gate across the road and path, it auto-opened nicely to let me out but it appears it's all private no access and owned by the Elveden Estate.
I thought that was adding insult to injury. Not only did the Highways Agency entirely fail to provide a highway for anyone not in a motor vehicle, they apparently gave away the existing one into private ownership, thus just adding to the length of the Elveden gap (from there to your gated road through Mildenhall woods). As far as I can see, this is the only serious candidate for a Cambridge-Norwich alignment.

The A11 is in theory passable by all road users including cyclists horse riders and pedestrians although it would be very foolish. There was some sort of footpath alongside although I didn't pursue it.

it's hard to speculate but it appears the A road was one of the few public highways allowed through the estate (and there are also few footpaths / bridleways) all the othere roads appear to be private (as they are on private land)

Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #13 on: 27 March, 2023, 11:08:56 pm »
Until recently the A11 ran through Elveden on the line of the private road on which you arrived. The point of my comment is that this gate, which I think is the one through which you came, is across London Road which, until the A11 bypass was built, was a public road, and could/should have formed part of a continuing cycle route. You're right that the new A11 is in theory passable by all, but I'm not sure that the Highways Agency/Highways England deals in theoretical schemes?

The member of staff with whom I had an exchange did have the grace to admit that, by the time that it opened, they could no longer have designed it like they did.

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: Norfollk / Suffolk route advice
« Reply #14 on: 27 March, 2023, 11:54:26 pm »
The gate is a lot more serious now a big metal funster across both road and path; as I approached I wondered how i could cross into the field to get past it.

Reading up; the estate is owned by the Guinness family, there is now a permissive bridleway around from the war memorial  to eventually join up with the Mildenhall forest road, although apparently it frequently gets locked. There is no indication when you join London Road by the memorial that it's private

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: A road cycle provision
« Reply #15 on: 28 March, 2023, 02:07:18 pm »
I've moved the topic here as it's fulfilled its original purpose. It highlights the practice where cycleable A roads are turned into dual carriageway death traps with no alternative provision for cyclists.

Does anyone have other examples?

Re: A road cycle provision
« Reply #16 on: 28 March, 2023, 05:43:18 pm »
My understanding is that broad practice has changed in recent years (which is what makes the A11 approach look quite dated as well as dangerous - they went ahead and built something that no longer met modern expectations, because of the long lead time on these things - at least, that's my summary of the understanding I got). So, more recent designs will tend to do better.

The A1, for example, has been upgraded between Alconbury and Peterborough more recently than in other sections. That may be a reason why the (now) B1043 didn't disappear under the new road. By contrast, south of Alconbury it's a bit patchy; there's no old road, and the nearest alternative, still the B1043, diverts from a direct route, but is not impossible. Around Sandy there are roads to the west, making alternative provision not such an omission. North of Peterborough, on the section least changed in recent decades, you need to be a tourist, not a traveller, because routes get really complicated and indirect. Then around Boroughbridge you start to get parallel roads again. I reckon you could estimate the time of the last upgrade by looking at the alternative provision, but maybe not.

The A421 south west of Bedford is fun because Marston Moretaine has been bypassed twice, the first bypass having been left to local traffic when they built the second. So cyclists get a time trial course that has little traffic (drivers mostly use the bypass bypass), but is still itself a bypass of the village (which is obviously too traffic calmed to want cyclists racing through the middle).

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: A road cycle provision
« Reply #17 on: 28 March, 2023, 10:15:09 pm »
Please can you edit the topic to A-Road, or A Road (preferably the first one)?
At the moment it scans like gps voice directions from 5years ago. "Take the A_ road" rather than the "Ay road"
(Anyone with proper phonetics feel free to correct my attempts)
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

GdS

  • I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass
Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #18 on: 28 March, 2023, 11:39:55 pm »
done  :)

@drossall do you think there is an actual strategy or even spec when it comes to planning cycling provision? after all cycle use on or off all highways except motorways is (with a few exceptions) voluntary. It's probably a requirement to provide segregated bike routes on completely new roads (ie not new bits of the same A-Road) from what I've observed.

here's another real fail from my weekend ride, the old A131 road was by-passed by a DC A-Road so there is the nice old road to cycle along, until after the roundabout either the money ran out or there was no residential area to avoid so they funnelled all that fast DC traffic into a not very wide SC with no cycle provision

https://streetmap.co.uk/map?x=572352&y=215177&z=126&sv=572352,215177&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map&searchp=ids&dn=776&ax=572352&ay=215177&lm=0

Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #19 on: 29 March, 2023, 09:08:21 am »
There will be those much more expert in this than am I, and who know what the regulations currently say. As an outside observer, I think there's a greater tendency to consider other traffic now and, to go back to my original example, therefore a reasonable chance that, had the A11 been designed now, it would not have been done in a way that cuts the main route between Cambridge and Norwich for some traffic.

That said, provision can be highly variable and, for cycling-specific routes, budgets create a great temptation to compromise and build very poor quality, indirect routes on narrow, bumpy tracks with lots of stop-and-give-way crossings which, for any distance (again, riding from Cambridge into Norwich is a good example), would be virtually impracticable to use.

Of course, people actually riding those distances must be a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of 1% of all traffic, so really hard to include with tight budgets, so it's easy to get unrealistic. I suspect that many of the roads alongside the A1 that I mentioned have actually been left there for a range of reasons, with cycling being no more than one possible factor - even though, for me, they are preferable to dubious cycle-specific provision. No-one is going to build a whole road specially for long-distance cycling - it's just nice if they don't obliterate an existing one, or leave out a 100-metre cut-through section that makes a vital connection. But the M25 experience showed, I think, that a road designed for long-distance travellers could in practice attract local traffic as well. I don't see why that shouldn't apply to local cycle traffic - so maybe we should talk about Mildenhall being cut off from Thetford, which it is. This brings the possible effects on local cycling more to the fore, of turning a highway (which is arguably a road for all travellers) into a dedicated motor-only road.

I'm not sure about your A131 example. Probably, the funding was only there to bypass Great Notley and then Great Leighs. I can't really see the remaining section, and all similar roads, having dual-carriageway bypasses that leave the old road in place. Paths alongside, maybe. But you're right about the way that road improvements have knock-on effects; the dualled sections will undoubtedly have increased traffic, and speeds, on the remaining parts of the road. That's an example of how improving one piece of road creates problems elsewhere. No doubt the residents of those two villages are still glad of their bypasses!

Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #20 on: 29 March, 2023, 09:21:17 am »
There’s a lovely quiet lane in the New Forest. It was cut in two, by a new trunk road not so many years ago.   No bridge or tunnel to get from one side to the other. Turning the lane into a couple of dead ends either side of the trunk road. 

MsG

  • No hills in Fenland but lots of wind
Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #21 on: 31 March, 2023, 08:26:33 pm »
BillyBoy wrote about the Cambridge - Norwich "safe route" https://billboyheritagesurvey.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/cambridge-to-norwich-safe-cycle-route/
Funnily enough, I later realised we'd chatted on a train about his modified handlebar bag, recognising the post!

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
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Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #22 on: 31 March, 2023, 09:48:41 pm »
before i head off tomorrow, this is gonna turn into a considerably overdistance 200 not helped by no trains from Chelmsford on Sunday;

are there any real no-noes? the Elveden dive under avoids a lot of the A11 it will be silly o clock in the morning

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/42114996

I'd avoid the A131 from Braintree to Chelmsford and a better route to Billericay . Here's a better route.  If you're after needing to control in Chelmsford etc then you could head inwards.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/42390562

Regards,

Joergen

Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #23 on: 31 March, 2023, 10:22:59 pm »
BillyBoy wrote about the Cambridge - Norwich "safe route" https://billboyheritagesurvey.wordpress.com/2022/02/27/cambridge-to-norwich-safe-cycle-route/
I had a similar experience, but with slightly different route choices. I was going from North Herts through Cambridge to Norwich. The first bit, into Cambridge, is fine - Ashwell and Bassingbourne offer a nice route north of the A505, with a couple of possible variations. The council appear to have designated cycle routes out to Mildenhall - much of the B1102 seemed to be marked as a cycle route. But at Freckenham you hit this massive fail, where Suffolk (briefly) and then Norfolk were seemingly not on the same page. So I took the A1065 via Brandon - bad idea, long way round, and quite unpleasant with the traffic. Then I ended up on a short, sandy track at Santon Warren, trying to get onto the back roads north of the A11. Not really a great ride on road tyres, and I had good weather, unlike BillyBoy. From there it was good again - minor roads via Wretham, Great Hockham, Great Ellingham and Wymondham, thence into Norwich on a slightly obscure cycle route that gets you over the A47. And so to my real destination near Coltishall. Back by the same route a couple of days later, with the sand and the A1065 again ruining what was otherwise a good ride.

And no doubt the motorists on the A1065 wanted to know why that cyclist was using a major road...

Re: A-Road cycle provision
« Reply #24 on: 01 April, 2023, 07:37:00 am »
I used to use the A1065 from Brandon up to the Watton road when I used to visit my father in Norwich, but then I've also used the A47 if I've been early enough in the morning - Getting to Norwich market for a bacon roll and a cuppa by 8.30 on a Sunday morning (56 miles in 3.25 hrs).
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...