Author Topic: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test  (Read 8538 times)

fuzzy

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #75 on: 19 July, 2013, 03:10:14 pm »
Calendar Girls?

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #76 on: 19 July, 2013, 11:27:17 pm »
Pacific Rim failed as a film for me because the female lead started out as a strong independent character (albeit the only female character with more than two lines of dialogue) with an interesting back-story, and then she rapidly became second fiddle to the male lead who
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So it wasn't the failing of the Bechdel test that bothered me: it was the reasons why it failed the test.

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spindrift

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #77 on: 20 July, 2013, 04:12:47 pm »
A rather lovely Anthony Hopkins film called The Fastest Indian features a trans woman. Hopkins is a bluff, no nonsense Aussie who takes a room in a boarding house run by the woman, a character introduced for no other reason than to show Hopkin's character is completely open minded, I think.

http://www.transfilms.net/films_w/film1987.php

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #78 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:48:38 pm »
Any story with a 3-dimesnional trans character (who doesn't get killed off) ought to pass the test by default, given how rare they are.

Hedwig & The Angry Inch
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Chris S

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #79 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:49:47 pm »
Any story with a 3-dimesnional trans character (who doesn't get killed off) ought to pass the test by default, given how rare they are.

Hedwig & The Angry Inch
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/

I thought that was going to be about an owl  :(

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #80 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:53:49 pm »
Orlando?

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #81 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:02:00 pm »
Any story with a 3-dimesnional trans character (who doesn't get killed off) ought to pass the test by default, given how rare they are.

Hedwig & The Angry Inch
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248845/

Okay, I'd completely forgotten about that.  Mainly due to repressed trauma of living with someone who sang along to the soundtrack album[1] for months.  Not exactly a realistic portrayal of, well, anything, but it had at least two proper characters who were somewhere on the trans* spectrum.


[1] May contain earworms or traces of earworms.

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #82 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:15:15 pm »
What I objected to was EG claiming that the few major characters she named are the only female characters, because it just ain't so. Call me a nit-picking pedant if you like, but that sort of thing irritates me.

I forgot a couple. It's not a crime. The principle is the same - the number of meaningful female characters who have fewer than eight legs can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Instead of just being a pedant, why not tell us which ones I've forgotten?
Because it doesn't affect the point. I agree entirely (& I've made that clear all along) that there are few (too few) female characters, & even fewer major ones. The books are male-dominated in a way which rather washed over me when I was 11, but has been glaringly obvious to me for many years. Ditto the class biases, & some bits which make me wince now because of the racial attitudes they show.

It was a bloody small thing, & no crime, certainly, but the sort of small thing that irritates me, & every now & again I can't stop myself from responding to. Why not just say "Yeah, I meant major characters", & move on?

BTW, if you want a book that's even more lacking in female characters, read The Hobbit. There's no doubt about Tolkien's sexism, & I've not noticed anyone here say you're wrong about it. Just one detail, which you chose to make into something more.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #83 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:18:56 pm »
Okay, I'd completely forgotten about that.  Mainly due to repressed trauma of living with someone who sang along to the soundtrack album[1] for months.

I did think it a bit odd that it hadn't occurred to you, but I quite understand your reason for suppressing the memory.   ;D

I love it, but then I've only seen it a couple of times.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #84 on: 23 July, 2013, 04:08:01 pm »
Tales of the City (a TV and radio adaptation from the books, not a film) but it does contain a positive trans character.  Shan’t say the character name as it’s a bit of a spoiler.  I suppose the fact that it *is* a spoiler shows how dated the books already are in a way.

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #85 on: 23 July, 2013, 04:08:40 pm »
BTW, if you want a book that's even more lacking in female characters, read The Hobbit. There's no doubt about Tolkien's sexism,

Actually, I think there is.

Too few female characters, yes.

But lets examine the three main ones (Galadriel, Arwen, Eowyn).

As we've already discussed, Galadriel is the ruler of her realm and her 'partner' subsidiary to her.

Arwen
An unfortunate foil to Aragorn. However, a distinctive part of her character is her defiance of her father and making her own choice.

Eowyn
A large part of the plot in the books is her railing against being a 'mere' woman and wanting to choose her own path freely.

Tolkien reflected attitudes of his times, no doubt. However his most feisty female character fights for her rights as fiercely as any suffragette.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Julian

  • samoture
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #86 on: 23 July, 2013, 04:11:40 pm »
Tales of the City (a TV and radio adaptation from the books, not a film) but it does contain a positive trans character.  Shan’t say the character name as it’s a bit of a spoiler.  I suppose the fact that it *is* a spoiler shows how dated the books already are in a way.

The new TOTC book (Michael Tolliver Lives) contains more positive trans characters including Michael's new employee Jake Greenleaf. 

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #87 on: 23 July, 2013, 04:12:00 pm »
More than reflecting the attitudes of his own time, Tolkein consciously reflected the attitudes and styling of the Sagas, which are, without a doubt, sexist (though there are a good few feisty female characters).  I think he had sexist views himself, which would not have been unusual for the time, though I feel his are more than, say, his more socially aware contemporaries.
Getting there...

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #88 on: 23 July, 2013, 06:12:59 pm »
Just one detail, which you chose to make into something more.
You appear to be confusing me with you.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #89 on: 23 July, 2013, 07:25:18 pm »
Tales of the City (a TV and radio adaptation from the books, not a film) but it does contain a positive trans character.  Shan’t say the character name as it’s a bit of a spoiler.  I suppose the fact that it *is* a spoiler shows how dated the books already are in a way.
Not much of a spoiler. Pretty guessable before it's actually revealed, in the books at least - I'm not sure about the adaptations.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #90 on: 23 July, 2013, 07:26:32 pm »
And all this Tolkien stuff - why are people arguing about how many or how important female characters he had, when hardly any of his characters (AFAIR) are human?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #91 on: 23 July, 2013, 07:33:46 pm »
I thought Aragorn, Boromir, and the residents of Rohan and Gondor were all supposed to be human.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #92 on: 23 July, 2013, 08:28:58 pm »
I was wracking my brains for a film which encapsulates a desirable role model for the sort of cussed codgers who don't give up. The coffin dodger's film of choice. For me it has to be 'The World's Fastest Indian', it even has a sympathetic transvestite character. At the Mersey Roads 24 at the weekend there were no end of characters like Burt Munro.

Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #93 on: 24 July, 2013, 03:19:12 pm »
I realised last night what the ultimate work of fiction is. The work by which all other films, books and tv series should be measured to see whether their female characters are real people or simply eye candy accessories to the male characters.

Halo Jones.

Halo Jones, for those unfamiliar with her Ballad, was a character whose exploits were serialised in 2000AD. When I first read it, I didn't realise that all the main characters are female.

Book One of Halo Jones tells of her life in a futuristic distopian ghetto, where she shares an apartment with a woman named Brinna, and hangs out with a woman called Rodice and a young female friend called Ludy. Oh, and there's a robot dog called Toby, but that's as close to a main male character as you get.

Book Two tells of Halo's journey on a space-liner, where she works as a waitress. She shares a cabin with a woman called Toy, and a transperson called Glyph (Glyph is neither male nor female). There are some male characters, but they're largely in the background, apart from one Very Important character who is male - but also twelve years old!

Book Three tells of a washed-up Halo joining Toy in an all-female platoon in an interplanetary equivalent of the Vietnam War. Again, when I first read it, the gender of the characters didn't register with me. All the soldiers, including the hierarchy, are female, with one exception, who is Halo's lover.

The thing is, it works. It's utterly believable. All the characters are primarily people, and the fact that they are women is a secondary characteristic. It's a real tragedy that only three out of the nine books were ever completed, and that no-one's yet made a film of it.

Halo Jones: Where did she go? Everywhere! What did she do? Everything!
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #94 on: 24 July, 2013, 03:53:15 pm »
Massively agree.

I love the wonderfully mundane way in which it started too, in that the central focus of the story for the first six issues or so was an essentially extended and engrossing story about a food shopping trip.

Halo Jones still ranks amongst the top favourite characters from 2000AD in any reader polls.  As I understand the brief to Alan Moore was to write a story that would appeal more to female readers.  The creators of 2000AD had a reasonable pedigree in this in that they had earlier created the mystery/adventure comic ‘Misty’ which defied a lot of the stereotypes for comics for girls at the time – admittedly this was when comics for children were still very much oriented around gender with 2000AD very much being created as a comic for boys at first (which it largely remained in its orientation if not its readership for many years).

Rights issues have remained the problem with Halo Jones and some other 2000AD characters and has prevented any further stories being written or adapted into other media (although there was a Halo Jones play many years ago).  Basically the creators get nothing in the way of royalties for re-issues or film rights and the only power they have is not to create any more stories.

JennyB

  • Old enough to know better
Re: The YACF 'better than Bechdel' test
« Reply #95 on: 24 July, 2013, 05:14:25 pm »
I was wracking my brains for a film which encapsulates a desirable role model for the sort of cussed codgers who don't give up. The coffin dodger's film of choice. For me it has to be 'The World's Fastest Indian', it even has a sympathetic transvestite character. At the Mersey Roads 24 at the weekend there were no end of characters like Burt Munro.

The Straight Story?
Jennifer - Walker of hills