Sportive trumps Road Race

[Rich753]

"that whilst sportives get us old buggers out riding, it's our racers that inspire the next generation of riders"

I suggest that's not quite the truism you might think - son of a pal was (is) a promising hill runner but got injured so took up riding a road bike to keep fit, got the bug, entered a few sportifs which he treated as races and decided to see how far he could go and spent a season in Belgium racing on cobbles.  Not thanks to any road race culture in the UK but becos' the sportif experience inspired him.  Which suggests to me that there is more than one way to skin a cat,

It suggests to me that road races are a lot harder to organise due to the regs. Did you read the OP?

I guess you also think £100 is a reasonable charge, for "encouraging new riders". 

Did I read the OP?  Are you serious? 

[Rhys W]

Why can't the sportive organisers be more accommodating by re-routing their ride so both can exist together?

Because sportives don't cater for the typical club rider, they're for lone individuals or at best, a small group of friends aiming for a challenge. They don't need the grass roots support of local clubs and 3/4 cats, they'll have plenty of dentists on Pinarellos willing to pay up.

<edit> Just had a look at the website. £100 to enter. £100! There's an optional £40 3-course gala dinner (and wives are allowed to come!) at a country club as well. Talk about the new golf.

[David Martin]

Cancel the road race. Explain why, and organise a club run/APR training ride over the same route at the same time

..d

[teethgrinder]

Why can't the police give the road race permission?
The sportive riders are just using the road like anyone else would be.

Maybe the road racers should enter the sportive and show them how it's done? Then again, with £100 entry, perhaps just ride the same roads without entering.

£100 expensive? I dunno. I paid about £20 for a 13 mile run and £40 for a 26 mile run, so sportives seem to be on par with running events in terms of £ per mile.
I'll be buggered if I'll pay £100 for a 70 mile ride myself though.

[Karla]

I'm surprised Graham's club president got anyone on the phone at the police, tbh.  It sounds like they're the sort of force who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.  "Oh, no, sorry you can't ride here, we think there'll be some other riders on the road at the same time.  What, us talk to them?  Nah mate, I can't, it's my tea break." 

Am I the only one to see that this sportive is named after a famous road racer?

[rogerzilla]

Who's organising the sportive?.  There is little chance of it being rearranged since (as Bobbi Flekman says in Spinal Tap) money talks and bullshit walks, but you could suggest to them that they check the race calendar before future events.

I am rather surprised that a sportive requires no special permissions, since a lot of participants will obviously be racing against one another.  In fact, it's worse because you can't take away the licence of a sportive rider who repeatedly crosses the white line or rides dangerously, but you can for a racer.

[Arch]

I'm surprised Graham's club president got anyone on the phone at the police, tbh.  It sounds like they're the sort of force who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.  "Oh, no, sorry you can't ride here, we think there'll be some other riders on the road at the same time.  What, us talk to them?  Nah mate, I can't, it's my tea break." 

Am I the only one to see that this sportive is named after a famous road racer?

No, I think the connection has been mentioned once or twice....

[Karla]

I'm surprised Graham's club president got anyone on the phone at the police, tbh.  It sounds like they're the sort of force who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.  "Oh, no, sorry you can't ride here, we think there'll be some other riders on the road at the same time.  What, us talk to them?  Nah mate, I can't, it's my tea break." 

Am I the only one to see that this sportive is named after a famous road racer?

No, I think the connection has been mentioned once or twice....

Ah , sorry, I missed something out of that post.

Am I the only one to see the irony of this being named after a road racer?

[giropaul]

Who's organising the sportive?.  There is little chance of it being rearranged since (as Bobbi Flekman says in Spinal Tap) money talks and bullshit walks, but you could suggest to them that they check the race calendar before future events.

I am rather surprised that a sportive requires no special permissions, since a lot of participants will obviously be racing against one another.  In fact, it's worse because you can't take away the licence of a sportive rider who repeatedly crosses the white line or rides dangerously, but you can for a racer.

That's the real issue for me. 500+riders not only don't need permission; the police can't stop the event. All you say is true, but also the public can't be expected to distinguish a sportive from a properly organised road race - it's loads of cyclists in racing kit with numbers on.

Then, when the next road race applies for permission, there's a whole lot of local opposition, and formal complaints that will affect the police's attitude.

[bobb]

I'm surprised Graham's club president got anyone on the phone at the police, tbh.  It sounds like they're the sort of force who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning.  "Oh, no, sorry you can't ride here, we think there'll be some other riders on the road at the same time.  What, us talk to them?  Nah mate, I can't, it's my tea break." 

Am I the only one to see that this sportive is named after a famous road racer?

No, I think the connection has been mentioned once or twice....

Ah , sorry, I missed something out of that post.

Am I the only one to see the irony of this being named after a road racer?

Now I understand the extortionate entry fee. All those Italian designer clothes and shoes don't come cheap...

[bobb]

.... one gets the impression arnt fit to ride a bike especially as they may deign to get off and walk...

Anyone who pays £100 to push their bike around deserves to be mocked!

[onb]

.... one gets the impression arnt fit to ride a bike especially as they may deign to get off and walk...

Anyone who pays £100 to push their bike around deserves to be mocked!

Anyone who pays £100 to go on a bike ride needs there bumps feeling but its their money and they can do what they want with it.

[Euan Uzami]

Is the only reason the race can't go ahead because the marshalls would have to hold up the sportive riders when the peleton? In which case I don't see why they can't - they could get held up for any number of other causes - roadworks, farmer with live stock, etc, so why not a race?
They are both as valid as each other so should both be able to go ahead. they could even avoid hold ups even if they used the same roads by negotiating how not to be in the same place at the same time.

[onb]

Is the only reason the race can't go ahead because the marshalls would have to hold up the sportive riders when the peleton? In which case I don't see why they can't - they could get held up for any number of other causes - roadworks, farmer with live stock, etc, so why not a race?
They are both as valid as each other so should both be able to go ahead. they could even avoid hold ups even if they used the same roads by negotiating how not to be in the same place at the same time.

I seem to recall doing the Bowland Populaire a couple of years  ago when exactly that happened.

[mattc]

all this we are racers and the others are sportive riders and ( one gets the impression arnt fit to ride a bike especially as they may deign to get off and walk ) smacks of fucking elitism ,

It's not as simple as that - it's the pretend racing that we look down on!
I'm simply not fast enough for the current road-race scene (by a long way), and I would finish close to last on most tough/serious sportives that I've looked at. So it's not elitism at all!

There are a subset of sportive riders who just want an organised bike ride, and don't see the -VEs - fair enough, they're a bit uninformed, but they just want to ride their bikes, can't blame them. Or they can't navigate for toffee*, so are happy to pay someone £50 to put up arrows (or man a sag-wagon). Again, it's their money. If you're new to riding, these things can be helpful, but most entrants are now career sportifs - they discuss the next event, and whether this Étape is tougher than the last 3 they rode etc ... etc ... Just read CW if you don't believe me.


The faux racing seems rather pathetic. Seeing how well you finish against the field? What does that show?!? You've no idea who 99% of the field are, or how long they've had a bike! Working in a bunch one minute, then trying to drop someone on a hill - that's not racing, it's willy-waving.

"Getting bums on seats must be good" ? Not if you're charging £100. Hardly encouraging newcomers. It's the regular CTC ride leaders (and similar) that get my praise. I don't see the "Here's my £100" lot going onto help build cycling themselves [of course there will be exceptions, it's a statistical comment, silly].

( Have I missed anything? )

*I think the number of "Can't navigate" types is insignificant. Almost everyone can read a map. I suspect there are more who think their "race finishing time" is too important to waste 5 minutes checking maps or directions.

[rogerzilla]

I could write pages on why I don't like the whole concept of sportives but I think the actual villain here is the STOOPID RULEBOOK that has far stricter regulations for a race than for a larger race (just because it isn't called a race).

[giropaul]

Is the only reason the race can't go ahead because the marshalls would have to hold up the sportive riders when the peleton? In which case I don't see why they can't - they could get held up for any number of other causes - roadworks, farmer with live stock, etc, so why not a race?
They are both as valid as each other so should both be able to go ahead. they could even avoid hold ups even if they used the same roads by negotiating how not to be in the same place at the same time.

No, the reason the race can't be held is that the police have refused permission. To be fair, this can also happen because there is a car boot on the circuit, or anything else that they consider adds to the potential risk.

Only appropriately certificated marshalls can stop traffic (but others can "advise motorists of a hazard"!)

The police have absolutely no powers to cancell, divert or change a sportive as it stands. Many forces aren't happy about this, but that's how it is.

[David Martin]

Sportives fall into a bit of a grey area. If the organisers are not careful then they can fall foul of the legislation (taking times, starting riders together, publishing times and a finishing order.)

..d

[mattc]

Just to muddy the waters, here's what started the recent "Are they races" thread:

I've just read a letter in Cycling, reporting that North Yorkshire Police have taken the view that reliability rides are races, requiring permission, motor-cycle out-riders and so on. Of course, some reliability rides are run like bunch races, but the ones I have experienced are very like Audaxes.

!

[Cudzoziemiec]

I could write pages on why I don't like the whole concept of sportives but I think the actual villain here is the STOOPID RULEBOOK that has far stricter regulations for a race than for a larger race (just because it isn't called a race).

Yes, it seems a bit silly.

What is the definition of a cycle race for traffic regulation purposes? Is there one? We all know TTs started way back when as a way to avoid being classified as races by not having group racing, sportives obviously are bunches and they have timing and results lists - is the only reason they aren't races because they aren't organised under BC auspices?

[Ewan Houzami]

They get round being classified as races because the person with the fastest time is not seen as the 'winner'. So kind of like a time trial in that regard. I might be wrong about this, but sportives (usually) list the riders' completion times either alphabetically, or within age brackets or by start time.

Edit: So more or less what Dr Oi You said earler.

[David Martin]

Updates to the regulations may well have an impact on bunch start events where times are taken. Australian Pursuit races (where riders set off in groups according to ability and the first back 'wins') are apparently legal and do not require police permission. Thus emerges the 'competitively paced training rides' of a weekday evening.

[mattc]

They get round being classified as races because the person with the fastest time is not seen as the 'winner'. So kind of like a time trial in that regard.

This is by-the-by, but: I'm pretty sure the fastest rider in a TT is the winner!

[citoyen]

They get round being classified as races because the person with the fastest time is not seen as the 'winner'.

Except by the person who finished first. They're quite similar to audaxes in that respect. 

d.

[Martin]

an important difference being that Audax may not publish finish times. The person winning a sportive has to wait until they get home and scrunch the results on Excel to find out.

I don't share The Panel's feeling that sportives are inferior to RR's; they are just different. If it get Bums on Seats who cares? I don't like the commercialism and sexing up of what are basically Relaibility Trials by sportive organisers but have nothing against the concept (and ones in the rest of Europe are superb)

Having done 2 and marshalled a few more RR's I think their days in the UK on public open roads are numbered, and the attitude of some of the organisers (actaully stopping traffic and parking motorbikes in the middle of the road) does not help