Claim your guaranteed place on LEL2017

[alwyn]

There will be around 1500 places, all being well. The best way to bag a place is to register at http://londonedinburghlondon.com to get ticket updates.

[mmmmartin]

But ... If there aren't enough places on LEL for everyone who wants to ride, then should a way be found to give priority to what I'm clumsily referring to as "the Audax community", ie people who reasonably regularly ride audaxes, in preference to people for whom riding an Audax is a rare or never event? If so, there has to be some sort of pre-qual requirement.

I think you should only be able to volunteer to help at a control if you've helped at several before, have proven you can go through the night with no sleep and know what type of food riders like to eat   

Alfapete speaks sooth.
For my money, Danial has it completely correct. Qualifiers are a stupid waste of time for both riders and for organisers. PBP requires a 600k - so why bother to prove you can ride a 200k? and if you can ride a 600k why ask riders to do a 300k? This is the sort of bureaucratic madness that permeates France and has made their economy the most debt-ridden in Europe for its size and given the taxpayer the burden of paying for the largest state sector in the EU.
And Danial has it right on the epic stories - look at Andy Allsopp's Barring Mechanicals book - his first 200k on any audax was the first 200k of LEL. Making riders do qualifiers would clog up the admin and exclude the truly audacious.
And any attempt to restrict LEL to "the audax community" would simply fill it with anciens sporting beards, sandals and Carradice bags.
It comes down to a question of vision: I'm with Danial's all the way.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

But ... If there aren't enough places on LEL for everyone who wants to ride, then should a way be found to give priority to what I'm clumsily referring to as "the Audax community", ie people who reasonably regularly ride audaxes, in preference to people for whom riding an Audax is a rare or never event? If so, there has to be some sort of pre-qual requirement.

I think you should only be able to volunteer to help at a control if you've helped at several before, have proven you can go through the night with no sleep and know what type of food riders like to eat   

Riders with 900km in their legs can be more fussy than my children.  However, that's exactly why I will be catering and not riding LEL.  For those interested I can share my experiences of running food for 1000 riders x 2 plus a few hangers on in 2013.

[megajoulesexpenditure]

I do have to agree with Arabella on this one especially if it sounds like we may need to also make a financial commitment:

I have replied to this taking up the offer as I imagine many will as there is no alternative to keep my options open despite the fact that if current injuries don't improve I won't be able to ride but if things improved I would like the option to decide at the same time as other standard entrants will decide.Two years is an amazingly long time ahead to know what will be for any of us by then. To quote a saying from a well known film, I don't even buy unripe bananas nowadays 

If the above is true for many others I can't really see that getting people to decide this early will help judge numbers.

[tom_e]

If the above is true for many others I can't really see that getting people to decide this early will help judge numbers.

It'll help a bit.  I volunteered but I think I'll pass (LEL just doesn't catch my imagination as a route).  And I remember a conversation with another volunteer who was actually not a cyclist at all, just a local guy who follows some volunteering events email list and came along to help.  He's not going to sign up.  Quite a few volunteers were relatives of riders, many of whom probably won't sign up.  If the 2017 organisers have a list of 500 people who helped in some way and a suspicion that less than half of them would consider the ride, they would presumably like to know that for planning purposes.

[alwyn]

I do have to agree with Arabella ...

All I'm asking for at this stage is an expression of interest, to weed out former volunteers and donors who have no intention of riding.

WE WILL NOT ASK YOU FOR ANY MONEY UNTIL JANUARY 2017.

[LMT]

But ... If there aren't enough places on LEL for everyone who wants to ride, then should a way be found to give priority to what I'm clumsily referring to as "the Audax community", ie people who reasonably regularly ride audaxes, in preference to people for whom riding an Audax is a rare or never event? If so, there has to be some sort of pre-qual requirement.

I think you should only be able to volunteer to help at a control if you've helped at several before, have proven you can go through the night with no sleep and know what type of food riders like to eat   

Alfapete speaks sooth.
For my money, Danial has it completely correct. Qualifiers are a stupid waste of time for both riders and for organisers. PBP requires a 600k - so why bother to prove you can ride a 200k? and if you can ride a 600k why ask riders to do a 300k? This is the sort of bureaucratic madness that permeates France and has made their economy the most debt-ridden in Europe for its size and given the taxpayer the burden of paying for the largest state sector in the EU.
And Danial has it right on the epic stories - look at Andy Allsopp's Barring Mechanicals book - his first 200k on any audax was the first 200k of LEL. Making riders do qualifiers would clog up the admin and exclude the truly audacious.
And any attempt to restrict LEL to "the audax community" would simply fill it with anciens sporting beards, sandals and Carradice bags.
It comes down to a question of vision: I'm with Danial's all the way.

Not for me they weren't. Good indication of fitness and what works and what does not.

[alwyn]

If the above is true for many others I can't really see that getting people to decide this early will help judge numbers.

It'll help a bit. 

It'll help a lot. At the moment I'm theoretically on the hook for 720 guaranteed places. By the end of this exercise I'll have whittled that number down to 400 places, and I'll know that all those people are entertaining the idea of entering.

I can then cross-check that against the AUK membership. I expect about 550 or so AUKs are likely to enter, meaning I need to set aside around 1,000 places. But I'll wager a de-dupe will knock that figure down to around 850. 

This is all really useful stuff for me to know.

[CrinklyLion]

alwyn - depending on the dates and Life I'm probably up for volunteering again, but will definitely not be riding so you can, highly shockingly, take me off your list off possibles

[vorsprung]

For my money, Danial has it completely correct. Qualifiers are a stupid waste of time for both riders and for organisers. PBP requires a 600k - so why

Not for me they weren't. Good indication of fitness and what works and what does not.

Qualifier is a brevet, a certificate, proof of a special event ridden on a particular day in a time window.  Cards are stamped and sent to France.  Forms are filled etc
Riding a 600 to prove to yourself you can do it could be a separate and distinct activity

[redfalo]

We've also set aside 400 places for people who were AUK members as of March 25 2015.

 
[irony mode]So what't the procedure to claim my place now?[\irony mode]

[alwyn]

There isn't one. We'll open entries a week early for AUKs.

[DCLane]

There isn't one. We'll open entries a week early for AUKs.

Good stuff - thanks.

[jsabine]

there has to be some sort of pre-qual requirement.

Qualifiers are a stupid waste of time for both riders and for organisers.

Not for me they weren't. Good indication of fitness and what works and what does not.

LEL13 was in my first audax season and I rode a few events as prep, trial, whatever you want to call it, and still DNFd (or finished hors delai, if you're being kind). Riding them was useful, but in retrospect, my failure was largely down to an inability to recognise or cope with sleep deprivation, and I think only an 800 or 1000km event would have got me to that point - the events I'd done led me to believe I could cope OK with riding when very tired, but hadn't tipped me into sleep dep. My control discipline was shit too, of course.

I have mixed feelings about the qualifying requirements for PBP - I've enjoyed the events I've done and it's prompted me to overcome my natural laziness, but it seems to me to lead to a very compressed season, which is a shame.

Also, I can't be fagged with the extra admin.

This is kind of the clincher though ...

It'll help a lot. At the moment I'm theoretically on the hook for 720 guaranteed places. [snip]

That's an interesting insight into the way the figures are working - I must say (and think I did in another thread) that I shared MJE's view that this wouldn't be a terribly useful exercise for you beyond setting a ceiling on places - but that ceiling looks a lot more helpful than I'd realised.

[megajoulesexpenditure]

Would it not be alot simpler just to open entries a couple of weeks early for helpers?

That way you don't actually need to know anything now as an entry will be an entry whoever it is from but the helpers will still have the opportunity to take up their guaranteed place.

Those that have said no now may well possibly change their mind later but will have lost their guarranteed place will they not?

It would also save the work needed to do this now.

It'll help a lot. At the moment I'm theoretically on the hook for 720 guaranteed places. By the end of this exercise I'll have whittled that number down to 400 places, and I'll know that all those people are entertaining the idea of entering.

I can then cross-check that against the AUK membership. I expect about 550 or so AUKs are likely to enter, meaning I need to set aside around 1,000 places. But I'll wager a de-dupe will knock that figure down to around 850. 

This is all really useful stuff for me to know.

[alwyn]

No.

The people I'm weeding out here are those who will just never ride. The majority of volunteers aren't interested in riding, full stop.

I now have a smaller list of people, and I know their intentions a bit better.

This will allow me to determine things like, say, whether there's any mileage in selling deposits as happened in 2009, and if so, how many and at what price. This could reduce or eliminate the amount of funding it asks from AUK, as well as putting LEL on a more sound financial footing by diversifying its income.

What I'm certainly not going to do is just wait until 2017 and see what happens. I made that mistake last time. Now is totally the time to do this kind of work.

[Fidgetbuzz]

I am with Danial -- given that our estimate is the need to be bigger ( to try to avoid too many unhappy riders who did not get a place) and better ( we need to pay for some of the services that were provided by volunteers ) - the finances are tricky -- but we do at least know a lot more about getting it right than we did 4 years ago. we also have to fund the development of the event over the next 18 months until entries open ( and also avoid the Paypal problem later on, if we can  ) .

So cash in  soon is important -- I would have got the "guaranteed " take up to put up a modest amount say £25 fully refundable until Jan 2017 -- but I think Danial has scotched that line -- a chat with AUK is on the agenda and the possibility of selling some entries now is also being considered.

But getting a line on potential "guaranteed" take up - and working out how many of those would otherwise have been in the AUK category -- but will not now be using that route for entry is helpful - as it gives us a line on how many spaces might be available for the open market in early Jan 2017.

[jsabine]

So cash in  soon is important -- I would have got the "guaranteed " take up to put up a modest amount say £25 fully refundable until Jan 2017 -- but I think Danial has scotched that line -- a chat with AUK is on the agenda and the possibility of selling some entries now is also being considered.

Half your fee now in return for a discount? Completely optional (ie your place is still reserved even if you pay nothing) and fully refundable until Jan 2017?

Possibly exposes you to all sorts of risks you'd rather not entertain, but it would offer some cash for the development work if you don't choose to broach the subject of seed funding during your chat with AUK.

[thing1]

On the subject of "fairness" in allocating the limited places, the PBP "Pre-qualifier" process seems far more useful than the qualifier process: have a sliding timeline for opening up registration based on some track-record criteria. Taking it a step further, "Was an AUK member on XX date", "completed a 1000km+ brevet in last 2 years", "helped out on XYZ events" could all sit side-by-side in scoring points for how early you get to register before it opens to the masses.

[Bianchi Boy]

On the subject of "fairness" in allocating the limited places, the PBP "Pre-qualifier" process seems far more useful than the qualifier process: have a sliding timeline for opening up registration based on some track-record criteria. Taking it a step further, "Was an AUK member on XX date", "completed a 1000km+ brevet in last 2 years", "helped out on XYZ events" could all sit side-by-side in scoring points for how early you get to register before it opens to the masses.

How are are these rules going to be applied  Auax is an international community and if you ride a brevet in Farawayland how do the applications people know? Also are we reserving places for AUK members? This sounds like a good idea but again more admin and rules to apply.

If you apply rules there has to be a appeals process and then the presentation of evidence.

There will be access to the AUK database. Any rule that does not use readily available information will be a pain to apply.

BB

[Fidgetbuzz]

On the subject of "fairness" in allocating the limited places, the PBP "Pre-qualifier" process seems far more useful than the qualifier process: have a sliding timeline for opening up registration based on some track-record criteria. Taking it a step further, "Was an AUK member on XX date", "completed a 1000km+ brevet in last 2 years", "helped out on XYZ events" could all sit side-by-side in scoring points for how early you get to register before it opens to the masses.

we are already on record that AUK members at March 2015 will have a short time to enter ahead of open entries, with a certain number of places committed to this body of riders. Adding any extra qualification steps would just give a huge nightmare ( I think ) -- PBP solves this timing because they have BRM records - and second point - we want to allow non qualification - ie never ridden an audax or more than a 200 before etc etc -- if we put barriers in place that require  past performance then we lose this body of people completely. There may only be 25 of them - but it is judged by Danial to be an important part of the LEL offer.

[mattc]

I want to say 1stly that Dan+Alwyn's approach makes perfect sense. He's explained it very well - I dont see how people are continuing to misunderstand him, and arent seeing why this filtering is useful to LEL.

Having said that, if LEL had unlimited admin time I would like to see something like pre-qualification, in parallel with giving places to volunteers.(and I said as much in LEL meetings 4 years ago!)

qualifiers do indicate preparedness, but I think more significant is a COMMITMENT; both to the event being entered and to audax riding in general. The DNS figures from previous LELs are good evidence. I also doubt the effect that LEL/PBP have on getting new riders into AUK; I welcome 1st-timers with open arms, but the stats show lots of people riding JUST PBP (and qualifiers) every 4 years (or just once) and having no other involvement in audax (globally I mean, not just AUK).

I agree with thing's comment too. I think long rides in previous years are a much better statement than rides squeezed into the spring before the big day, just to satisfy the rules.

But theres no perfect system. I'll live with what we have!

[trekker12]

but it seems to me to lead to a very compressed season, which is a shame.

Particularly for those of us who aren't doing PBP 2015 and have finally cleared the calendar for some events in summer and autumn yet there are now few available in my area because they were all shifted towards the June qualifying deadline for PBP.

LEL 2017 is on my radar and although I've not done any long events I look forward to learning how it's done before putting my entry in and even more relieved although I've done few events I was a member of AUK in March.

[matthew]

Having helped at both LEL13 and WCW15, I am one of many people entitled to a guaranteed place on LEL17, however I also harbour no ambition to ride that far. Therefore I am one of the many people Daniel needs to filter out when considering the number of places he should provide on LEL17. The current process of asking those who may want to take up their place to express an intent now without financial commitment seems a good starting point.

As it is I will state that work location permitting I will happily muck in at a control on LEL17 and hopefully for more than Registration and Depart which was all I could do in LEL13.

[bhoot]

Danial, are you also looking for early indication of volunteers for 2017? I can't make a  hard and fast commitment at this stage but certainly want to be on the list of potential people - so doing it the other way round, ride one then volunteer for the next.