After completing LEL, I'm starting to think of where next for me with my audax goals.Super randonee is a 600km permanent ride with a significant amount of climbing.
As I love shiny bits of medals I've been looking at the various awards that I haven't yet achieved. One that interests me is ACP's Randonneur 10000.
Leaving aside for the moment the Super Randonnee 600, which I'd never heard of before, I see that one of the conditions is two full sets of rides ACP Brevets ie I think that means BRMs 200-1000. My question is if I need to have completed each of the sets within the same season. Or is sets x2 over the six year period?
Liam
Please could anybody recommend a 1200 UK based ride which would qualify?Only LEL in 2021 full list of 1200s is here http://www.randonneursmondiaux.org/38-Calendar_2018.html
The ACP doesn’t need a series to be done in a single year for this award.
For those interested in SR600s further afield - buddy who works with Audax in South Africa just let me know that in the last few days, the ACP have approved and added the "SR Afrique du Sud" to their list.I thought you were considering riding one of the UK SR600s, Rob?
More info on the Audax SA site - http://audaxsa.co.za/sr-afrique-du-sud/
Be aware that a SR600 is no longer a requirement for the ACP10k award, you now need a regular BRM600 with 8000m of climbing. With the regular 40 hours time limit that is. Politics :sick:my understanding is these goalposts are only moved AFTER this season
Edit: I have checked the French version of the 'new' rules and it says: "Jusqu’au 31 octobre 2022 : Une SUPER RANDONNEE en formule « Randonneur », soit 600 km pour un dénivelé positif de 10000 m minimum, homologuée par l’Audax Club Parisien." OR a BRM600 with 8000m of climb.Be aware that a SR600 is no longer a requirement for the ACP10k award, you now need a regular BRM600 with 8000m of climbing. With the regular 40 hours time limit that is. Politics :sick:my understanding is these goalposts are only moved AFTER this season
well I do have on my AUK record Bryan Chapman Memorial 2019 which allegedly had 8500m, the question is how that climb is assesses by ACP, i really don't think they've though this through, most BRMs do not record the level of climb, so how will they know when anyone claims the award, whether their rides count or not? will someone investigate what the route of the event was at the time and verify on openrunner that the climb was sufficient? Will they accept AUK BRM points?
I am in 'sort of' the opposite position to you. I failed both attempts at an SR600 in 2019: (Cambrian 6c (adapted) and Sophie's Alpes de haute Provence), but have completed several AAA 600s, as well as all the rest: Mille Pennines, WH1000, LEL, PBP, Easter Arrow.
What I understood is that if you send in your ACP10k claim before October 31st 2022 having met all requirements you can still use a SR600. If you meet for example every requirement except PBP (or a BRM 1000, or ...) and send in a claim next year September then you also need to do a BRM 600 with 8000m climbing, the SR600 you did in the past is then "bonus".agreed, so the question is if the rides were all completed prior to October 2022, must the claim form also be submitted before 01/11/22? or will they accept late admin as long as the riders were in the window. It would suck to miss out because BRM were sitting on a large number of homogulations when the deadline slipped by.
well I do have on my AUK record Bryan Chapman Memorial 2019 which allegedly had 8500m, the question is how that climb is assesses by ACP, i really don't think they've though this through, most BRMs do not record the level of climb, so how will they know when anyone claims the award, whether their rides count or not? will someone investigate what the route of the event was at the time and verify on openrunner that the climb was sufficient? Will they accept AUK BRM points?
What I understood is that if you send in your ACP10k claim before October 31st 2022 having met all requirements you can still use a SR600. If you meet for example every requirement except PBP (or a BRM 1000, or ...) and send in a claim next year September then you also need to do a BRM 600 with 8000m climbing, the SR600 you did in the past is then "bonus".agreed, so the question is if the rides were all completed prior to October 2022, must the claim form also be submitted before 01/11/22? or will they accept late admin as long as the riders were in the window. It would suck to miss out because BRM were sitting on a large number of homogulations when the deadline slipped by.
Really regretting not riding LEJOG now.
well, quite. It seems the whole Super Randonees are not under our control any more, so we will replace them with something similar which we do control for this award, has a whole load of complications they haven't considered.
well I do have on my AUK record Bryan Chapman Memorial 2019 which allegedly had 8500m, the question is how that climb is assesses by ACP, i really don't think they've though this through, most BRMs do not record the level of climb, so how will they know when anyone claims the award, whether their rides count or not? will someone investigate what the route of the event was at the time and verify on openrunner that the climb was sufficient? Will they accept AUK BRM points?
How will it work for BRMs without mandatory route ?
J
Surely they will just assess it under rules in place at the time you completed the events, not when you submit your claim?So, does this mean,
The way I read the rules, ACP have now changed them, with immediate effect. And as written the option for applications until 31 Oct to fill the hilly 600 row is either:Surely they will just assess it under rules in place at the time you completed the events, not when you submit your claim?So, does this mean,
If you completed a BRM 600 in the last six years it will become valid a qualifier on October 31st?
or
From October 31st you will need to do a BRM 600 and prior to that date you will have needed to have done one of the SR600s?
I've not done one of the SR 600s but I think I have done a BRM 600 with over 8000M climbing (Kernow & Southwest . Interested as I've now completed LEL and everything else bar this 600.
so the question is if the rides were all completed prior to October 2022, must the claim form also be submitted before 01/11/22? or will they accept late admin as long as the riders were in the window. It would suck to miss out because BRM were sitting on a large number of homogulations when the deadline slipped by.No, there is no limit (aiui) on when you submit the application. You (I think) have all the rides you need in place, with LEL included. When I successfully applied for the ACP 5000 after PBP but before it had been homologated, Chris (AUK's ACP rep) said just list it, with your plate number and they would sort it. They did.
French randonneuring organisations tend to measure altitude totals with OpenRunner. Other mapping might give totals inconsistent with OpenRunner.Going to OpenRunner (which I have used before to check SR600 climbs), they have recently upgraded to a subscription model.
Only 10 on the SR600 list, so no real surprise
Very few Brits on the ACP 10000 list, btw.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/randonneur-10000-en/#ResultsRandonneur10000
Very few Brits on the ACP 10000 list, btw.
Currently based in SE Asia and looking for a 600 with the required 8,000m climbing.
The concern for me is whether events which have the reported 8,000m on the shared route, say rwgps, have been registered as such with ACP? Is there a process for this even? As a claimant how would we prove that it met this requirement?
How would we even find the required events? ACP publishes lists of events in all countries but doesn't publish the recognised climbing.
...
The Netherlands list is far from a complete list, I looked after finding they only listed 600km BRMs in France, and I was sure Netherlands had some too. Maybe it's just due to the time of year, and it will be completed over time.
How would we even find the required events? ACP publishes lists of events in all countries but doesn't publish the recognised climbing.
...
The list of events on ACPs website isn't complete either. Currently it only shows France, Slovenia, Netherlands, Turkey and UAE in their list for the current (new) season.
Very few Brits on the ACP 10000 list, btw.
One more in the pipeline. I submitted my application form a few months ago, including a SR600 as a SR600.
How about in person in Paris on 7 January?Yay! Just received confirmation that my application was successful. I should be receiving the diploma and medal sometime in January. :)Very few Brits on the ACP 10000 list, btw.One more in the pipeline. I submitted my application form a few months ago, including a SR600 as a SR600.
How about in person in Paris on 7 January?It was a bit odd they suggest you can collect the award in Paris. For anybody but a Parisian that sounds like a costly and wasteful suggestion.
My experience of OpenRunner was that it underscored the elevation on the Cambrian 6C Super Randonnnee in comparison with other methods of checking, including a painstaking contour count - 10,122m vs 11,100 - 12,000 by other methods. However, my assumption would be that they would take the published figure as it would be a faff to replicate the route, but that's just innocent supposition.
As someone with a penchant for hilly 600km events, my Garmin agrees with me that some 8000m ascent rides are more hilly than others.
Usually AUK sends a representative to this meeting who collects the awards.How about in person in Paris on 7 January?It was a bit odd they suggest you can collect the award in Paris. For anybody but a Parisian that sounds like a costly and wasteful suggestion.
BCM 17-19 and 22 was not 'just' under 8000m it was way under (close to / under 7000m) on RwGPS. However on Openrunner the same 'almost 600km long' route was 7668m.My experience of OpenRunner was that it underscored the elevation on the Cambrian 6C Super Randonnnee in comparison with other methods of checking, including a painstaking contour count - 10,122m vs 11,100 - 12,000 by other methods. However, my assumption would be that they would take the published figure as it would be a faff to replicate the route, but that's just innocent supposition.Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.
As someone with a penchant for hilly 600km events, my Garmin agrees with me that some 8000m ascent rides are more hilly than others.
My experience of OpenRunner was that it underscored the elevation on the Cambrian 6C Super Randonnnee in comparison with other methods of checking, including a painstaking contour count - 10,122m vs 11,100 - 12,000 by other methods. However, my assumption would be that they would take the published figure as it would be a faff to replicate the route, but that's just innocent supposition.
As someone with a penchant for hilly 600km events, my Garmin agrees with me that some 8000m ascent rides are more hilly than others.
Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.
It's probably cheaper than travelling to (er where was the last one) for the auk awards in 2019 to collect a bit of glass, and the return.How about in person in Paris on 7 January?It was a bit odd they suggest you can collect the award in Paris. For anybody but a Parisian that sounds like a costly and wasteful suggestion.
Does anyone know?
Does anyone know?
Climbing figures are to be submitted for events to the ACP as part of the submission from the ACP Representative. This includes a seperate column for the amount of climbing for a 600 if it is greater than 8,000m.
Look on the ACP calendar and you can see their recognised climbing figures. For the UK there are only 2 which qualify for the coming season. Will Poms and Andy Corless.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#calendar
I'll be heading to Malaysia for a BRM 600 with 9,500m climbing on Feb 11th! Entries still open if you're tempted.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41821362
My April "Mekong 600" BRM event here in Vietnam only has 1,400m!
[...] It annoys me greatly that this was changed only for politics/ego reasons.
I did seriously think about stopping riding BRMs, but as I had already entered a load of PBP qualifiers....[...] It annoys me greatly that this was changed only for politics/ego reasons.
Same here, I was one BRM1000 and one PBP short of the ACP Randonneur 10000, with plenty of time to complete both. But now the superrandonnee that I completed in 2021 no longer counts. If they change the rules midway through the game (because of extreme pettiness), then I can't be bothered with these kind of awards anymore.
I assure you that the BCM is not OpenRunner over 8000m+ compliant. ACP are just listing what they've been told by the Audax UK's rep to ACP who has simply taken it from the Audax UK calendar. ACP will verify these climb amounts. For your sake let's hope this slips through.Climbing figures are to be submitted for events to the ACP as part of the submission from the ACP Representative. This includes a separate column for the amount of climbing for a 600 if it is greater than 8,000m.Interesting that BCM is down as compliant when Will said he thought it wasn't due to openrunner analysis. Wonder if this means that previous years BCMs are OK.
Look on the ACP calendar and you can see their recognised climbing figures. For the UK there are only 2 which qualify for the coming season. Will Pom's and Andy Corless.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#calendar (there is a scrolling bar at the bottom btw)
Seems like I will be OK then, without needing to travel to Malaysia or Vietnam next month. I have entered BCM which ACP list as being 8500m
there is also one in Ireland on 29th of July, a few in France, many in Spain
Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.BCM 17-19 and 22 was not 'just' under 8000m it was way under (close to / under 7000m) on RwGPS. However on Openrunner the same 'almost 600km long' route was 7668m.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28456143
Your route for the Bryan Chapman Memorial 2023, on RwGPS is a couple of hundred metres more climb. So with a few tweeks in 2024 maybe you could get it over 8000m on Openrunner.
My experience seems contrary to yours: I find (for Welsh routes anyway) that the climb according to Openrunner is about 10% HIGHER than RwGPS.
Deano's SR600 is 12,341m climb on RwGPS but 13,161m on Openrunner.
I assure you that the BCM is not OpenRunner over 8000m+ compliant. ACP are just listing what they've been told by the Audax UK's rep to ACP who has simply taken it from the Audax UK calendar. ACP will verify these climb amounts. For your sake let's hope this slips through.
on a elephant inhabited road
Just completed the BRM 600 w/ 8000m+ climbing can confirm that it was bloody tough
yes, 2000m less but 20 hours less. is not a balanced trade.Just completed the BRM 600 w/ 8000m+ climbing can confirm that it was bloody tough
Well done. It would tough enough when riding it as an SR, let alone at BRM pace.
2 hours less?the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road, same on the last day of LEL, short sleep trying to make progress before the heat, but just ended up having naps along the way.
the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road,A lorra of riders have completed the Bryan Chapman BRM 600 in the 40 hours, with a decent amount of sleep (4+), year on year. The climb (2022 or 2023 routes) is only about 1000m shy of the 8000m required. So if a rider can complete BCM in 38 hours then a 600 with 8000+m is entirely doable by hundreds of AUKers. The challenge is that, other than Andy's scenic 600, none are scheduled in the UK. Bring back Ian's Kernow and SW!
we are not comparing BRM to BR or BP
on a elephant inhabited road
was this on the lanes, or was it a trunk road?
Not if they slept at Kings they didn't, I was turfed out of bed after less than 3, total stopped time was less than 4 hours including controlling and eating dinner and breakfast, packing bags etc.
A lorra of riders have completed the Bryan Chapman BRM 600 in the 40 hours, with a decent amount of sleep (4+), year on year. T
2 hours less?the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road, same on the last day of LEL, short sleep trying to make progress before the heat, but just ended up having naps along the way.
when I did my SR600 I stopped overnight for 10 hours each night, (wash, eat, sleep, eat) and finished with just over 30 minutes to spare. knocking 20 hours off the time budget means no sleeping, other than the time saved for 8000m instead of 10,000m. Maybe under more time pressure I would have stopped less during the day. But I don't think I was having pub lunches, and I was solo so no real reason to loiter.
day 1 start 07:31, finish 20:04, 217km 4700m
day 2 start 06:52, finish 20:08 204km 4000m
day 3 start 06:39, finish 18:47 192km 3500m
we are not comparing BRM to BR or BP
So the new rules have been posted
QUALIFYING EVENTS
The qualifying events must be completed within a six year period, beginning on the date of the first qualifying event.
To qualify for this award, the randonneur must complete :
- 2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000m (26.240
ft) elevation minimum. - Longer brevets cannot be substituted for shorter ones
- 1 PARIS-BREST-PARIS Randonneur
- Another 1200 km + event homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux
- 1 FLECHE VELOCIO or National Arrow The achieved mileage is used (i.e. if the team went further
than the minimum qualifying distance of 360 km).
At least 3 riders must finish the Flèche (you cannot individually claim for your ridden mileage if your team
was not successful).
International randonneurs can ride a Flèche Nationale homologated by the ACP and organized in
accordance with the rules for the Flèche Vélocio.
No Brevet can be substituted for another.
The events used to apply for the Randonneur 5000 can be used to apply for the Randonneur 10000.
To bring the total distance up to at least 10,000 km, following ACP events are accepted :
- Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRMs).
- 1200+ events homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux. These 1200 km events cannot take the place of
the ACP 1000 km brevet.
- Flèche Vélocio or Flèche Pascale or Flèche Nationale.
- Flèche de France (ACP permanents), if they are ridden on one of the established routes and in the Gold or
Silver division. The Flèche de Dieppe is not acceptable since it is shorter than 200 km.
- Super Randonnées homologated before 2022, November 01.
Super Randonees are now only given the same weight as any random three BRM 200s, and even if they were ridden before the rules change it seems will no longer be accepted
Goalposts well and truly moved, and as far as I can tell there is no way of finding out where they even are now. Which BRM 600s are these unicorns that have 8,000m of climbing as accepted by ACP?
BCM is listed by AUK as 8400m, but I've always felt that was generous, and it seems ACP agree based on Mr Pomeroy's comment above.
The Brimstone is only listed as 7.5AAA points
The Pendle 600 is listed as 10,000m, but no way of knowing whether ACP would accept that. (whether or not I could even finish it within 40 hours is a different question)
No way of identifying on the ACP BRM calendar which BRM 600s would be accepted.
Does anyone know?
So the new rules have been posted
QUALIFYING EVENTS
The qualifying events must be completed within a six year period, beginning on the date of the first qualifying event.
To qualify for this award, the randonneur must complete :
- 2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000m (26.240
ft) elevation minimum. - Longer brevets cannot be substituted for shorter ones
- 1 PARIS-BREST-PARIS Randonneur
- Another 1200 km + event homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux
- 1 FLECHE VELOCIO or National Arrow The achieved mileage is used (i.e. if the team went further
than the minimum qualifying distance of 360 km).
At least 3 riders must finish the Flèche (you cannot individually claim for your ridden mileage if your team
was not successful).
International randonneurs can ride a Flèche Nationale homologated by the ACP and organized in
accordance with the rules for the Flèche Vélocio.
No Brevet can be substituted for another.
The events used to apply for the Randonneur 5000 can be used to apply for the Randonneur 10000.
To bring the total distance up to at least 10,000 km, following ACP events are accepted :
- Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRMs).
- 1200+ events homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux. These 1200 km events cannot take the place of
the ACP 1000 km brevet.
- Flèche Vélocio or Flèche Pascale or Flèche Nationale.
- Flèche de France (ACP permanents), if they are ridden on one of the established routes and in the Gold or
Silver division. The Flèche de Dieppe is not acceptable since it is shorter than 200 km.
- Super Randonnées homologated before 2022, November 01.
Super Randonees are now only given the same weight as any random three BRM 200s, and even if they were ridden before the rules change it seems will no longer be accepted
Goalposts well and truly moved, and as far as I can tell there is no way of finding out where they even are now. Which BRM 600s are these unicorns that have 8,000m of climbing as accepted by ACP?
BCM is listed by AUK as 8400m, but I've always felt that was generous, and it seems ACP agree based on Mr Pomeroy's comment above.
The Brimstone is only listed as 7.5AAA points
The Pendle 600 is listed as 10,000m, but no way of knowing whether ACP would accept that. (whether or not I could even finish it within 40 hours is a different question)
No way of identifying on the ACP BRM calendar which BRM 600s would be accepted.
Does anyone know?
If this was a copy/paste from ACP at the time, it seems that the English version of this has changed. Notably, the first emphasis "plus a BRM 600..." has been bumped down to it's own line item with the verbiage that no brevet can be substituted fro any other brevet unchanged.
Does anyone know if you need 2 SR series and an additional 600 with 8k gain or could the 600 in the SR have 8k gain and qualify for both?
"No Brevet can be substituted for another."
2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000mEn effete, that's what the French version says.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/R10000-reglement-anglais-2022.pdf
Of course the plus could be a translation error and I don't know french but....
| N° NOM Prénom Sexe D/P de _ à Année Pays 366 CROXFORD Martin M GB du 17/08/2015 au 06/07/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni 377 SMETHURST David M GB du 29/03/2015 au 26/07/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni 388 RALPHS Steve M GB du 29/03/2013 au 20/08/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni 644 TURNER Andrew M GB 29/07/2017 au 11/06/2021 2022 Royaume-Uni 732 RYE John M GB 28/05/2016 au 18/08/2019 2023 Royaume-Uni 736 CAMPLIN Jack M GB 02/04/2017 au 20/05/2023 2023 Royaume-Uni 759 BANKS Jon M GB 10/03/2018 au 20/05/2023 2023 Royaume-Uni 777 METCALFE James M GB 06/09/2018 au 07/08/2022 2023 Royaume-Uni 783 FARGO Robert M VN 20/01/2019 au 11/02/2023 2023 Viet Nam |
Congrats
VN is Vietnam?
Finally see that these have been published for 2023 submissions and happy to see my name on the listInteresting, my application is validated with rides up to LEL2022, which means my super randonee is counted, rather than the 600km BRM with 8,000m of climbing. It seems my application from 2021 was eventually approved. So I need not have any guilt about whether BCM 2023 actually has over 8,000m of climbing or not, after some people of this place decided it didn't really have sufficient climbing to be used.
This puts the list of UK recipients (plus me)
N° NOM Prénom Sexe D/P de _ à Année Pays
366 CROXFORD Martin M GB du 17/08/2015 au 06/07/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni
377 SMETHURST David M GB du 29/03/2015 au 26/07/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni
388 RALPHS Steve M GB du 29/03/2013 au 20/08/2018 2018 Royaume-Uni
644 TURNER Andrew M GB 29/07/2017 au 11/06/2021 2022 Royaume-Uni
732 RYE John M GB 28/05/2016 au 18/08/2019 2023 Royaume-Uni
736 CAMPLIN Jack M GB 02/04/2017 au 20/05/2023 2023 Royaume-Uni
759 BANKS Jon M GB 10/03/2018 au 20/05/2023 2023 Royaume-Uni
777 METCALFE James M GB 06/09/2018 au 07/08/2022 2023 Royaume-Uni
783 FARGO Robert M VN 20/01/2019 au 11/02/2023 2023 Viet Nam