Author Topic: Rider eye height on a Windcheetah (Read 5322 times)

Wombat · « **on:** 18 November, 2011, 08:09:03 am »

This is what sound like a silly question, as its in connection with a road accident. Some of you may know that a friend recently died after being hit whilst riding his Windcheetah. Geoff's partner is concerned that it may be that those investigating the accident are not checking things out from the right viewpoint, literally. There are potentially some issues of junction visibility, and we would like to get an idea of that visibility from said recumbent riders perspective. So, the exact question is:

What would you estimate the typical eye height of a 6ft 2ish rider on a Windcheetah trike to be, when travelling slowly. Yes, I know there are adjustments, and I have only sat on the machine once, and I just got a feeling it was pretty low, but sadly I couldn't ride it as I'm too short (well I suppose we could have wedged a big cushion behind me!). Looks like I'll never get the chance now.

I want to try to take photos and video tomorrow morning, and obviously the vehicle in question is not available as a test vehicle. Any help will be very gratefully received, as we want to be sure that all avenues are fully explored.

Tim · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 November, 2011, 10:01:42 am »

So, someone who is 6'2" and has a windcheetah in the garage....

That's a bit of a specific request and almost uncannily tailored to me, I shall try and remember when I get home.

Are there any other particular measurements you want?

And the eye level isn't that low as the seat is reasonably upright.

Kathy · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 November, 2011, 10:10:05 am »

When riding with Tim, I've noticed that when he slows down at junctions he often leans forward and up for increased visibility. We can try and get photos and measurements of both "normal" riding position and "looking at a junction" position if you want. We can take photos next to a car for comparison in eye height if that would help.

Tigerbiten · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 November, 2011, 12:08:40 pm »

I'm 5'8" and I ride an ICE trike with the hardshell seat at its most reclined.
My eyeline is only around 850-900mm.
I'd expect Geoff would have probably been around the 900-1000mm range.

Ps, I'm another one who sits up at junctions if I need a better veiw.

Wombat · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 November, 2011, 12:15:13 pm »

That would be very helpful, Kathy and Tim. The issue is around a roadside advertising sign (ironically for the company that Geoff had just left when he was hit) and that sign is low. Exactly how low I do not know right now, but I will be visiting the scene tomorrow. His partner got the impression that although those investigating seemed keen, they may not grasp the issues of riding a recumbent trike fully. He was hit by a motorcycle, that as far as we know, was not doing anything unlawful. Probably just a dreadful accident, but if there are real visibility issues at the junction, then we'd like to see them addressed. Geoff was also a motorcyclist, and also rode an F frame Moulton, and was an experienced highways engineer, so I'd expect him to be aware of safety issues.

nuttycyclist · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 November, 2011, 12:28:48 pm »

I'm about 5'8" from memory.

By cunning means of tape measure and spirit level I have just measured my eye height to be 84cm from the ground in normal riding position on the windcheetah, increasing to 94cm to the ground if I were to sit up & forward at a junction/other as Kathy mentions above.

Tim · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 November, 2011, 12:50:14 pm »

The sitting up when pulling out of junctions I've always used not to be higher, but to get your head further forward so that you can see better round the corner without sticking your legs out into the traffic. Anyhow this is not the time for assessment of riding styles.

Tim · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 November, 2011, 05:41:59 pm »

So, my limited survey of one 6'2" windcheetah rider came up with the following data:

Eye level for normal riding came out at 95cm from the ground, and when doing the leaning forward and prairie dogging a bit it comes out at about 105cm.

Hope that helps.

Quint · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 November, 2011, 05:50:58 pm »

Without knowing riding style (ie did he - as I do- come up to the junction and, if turning left onto the road, align myself with the main road and use the mirror to check what is coming, easier than neck craning and better field of vision.
If going straight across/turning right, pull right up to white lines and creeping forward for best view.
Obviously experienced, what terrible news, feel eye level irrelevent as one develops techniques to overcome these things
Seamus

Cunobelin · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 November, 2011, 08:12:20 pm »

I live in Gosport and ride both a Catrike Expedition and an HPVelotechnik Gekko.

If the use of one of these machines could contribute to the investigation, then please let me know.

Wombat · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 November, 2011, 10:06:03 pm »

Many, many thanks for all your contributions. Mary will be heartened to hear of the help received here. I do not know Geoff's riding style, sadly, as we generally met on railway related issues, rather than cycling, and due to his health issues his cycling was rather limited. My own excuse for the small amount of cycling I do is more down to a busy lifestyle and laziness. We wanted to get an idea of what it would be like approaching and negotiating this junction on a recumbent trike and we'll try to get an idea of it with the information given. If its looking like there is an issue, and the official investigators are not realising the issues/situation of a recumbent rider, then I may well call on one of the offers of help I have received.

I hope you, Cunobelin, have been having more fun with the A32 lately, than the car drivers have! I drive the car to work in Gosport usually (only worked there 4 months) as I use it for work, but this week have said the car is not available, so have been making the long sea journey instead. Next step is to take the Dahon to work in the car, and use it for local pottering for work, to get more gentle miles in, to assess if my knees are terminal, or will improve with more use. If the latter, a Moulton TSR beckons, partly because Geoff was gently pushing me in that direction, and partly because I always wanted one, after my F Frame Moulton of my youth. Geoff had 2 curly stayed Hetchins (one of which I rode for 2 years) and a Moulton, so I may well be helping Mary dispose of those appropriately. I'll rig up some way of photographing and filming from the height advised, once again thanks to you all. there is apparentyl CCTV of Geoff approaching th ejunction and slowing, but as yet I do not know what it reveals, as I'm not privy to that. I'll speak to Mary, his partner, tomorrow to get more idea, as I have to give her numbers of railway folk attending the funeral. I gather from another YACF member that some will be appearing in full morris kit!

Arellcat · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 November, 2011, 11:12:17 pm »

Wombat, I also fit the criteria exactly. My eye level from the ground when I'm riding my Speedy is 89cm ± ~1cm or so.

Wendy · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 November, 2011, 05:32:54 pm »

Quote from: nuttycyclist on 18 November, 2011, 12:28:48 pm

I'm about 5'8" from memory.

By cunning means of tape measure and spirit level I have just measured my eye height to be 84cm from the ground in normal riding position on the windcheetah, increasing to 94cm to the ground if I were to sit up & forward at a junction/other as Kathy mentions above.

Quite amazed - that's not much different from my Fujin, in fact my Fujin might even be lower.

RW · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 November, 2011, 03:36:40 pm »

My partner and her mother knew Geoff well. It is very sad.

http://www.midweekherald.co.uk/news/sidmouth_remembers_colourful_morris_man_geoff_1_1125674

TimO · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 November, 2011, 09:04:22 am »

Quote from: Kathy on 18 November, 2011, 10:10:05 am

When riding with Tim, I've noticed that when he slows down at junctions he often leans forward and up for increased visibility. We can try and get photos and measurements of both "normal" riding position and "looking at a junction" position if you want. We can take photos next to a car for comparison in eye height if that would help.

Oddly enough, when I had my old Trice, which has a seating position quite similar to a Speedy, I used to do exactly the same, utterly independent of anyone else (when I bought it, I knew no one else with a recumbent, they were a lot rarer twenty years ago). I'd completely forgotten that I did that, but your description brought the memory back. As I recall, I did that for a couple or reasons (i) because it made it easier to look behind. If you're in a recumbent position, you otherwise tend to just see the ground behind you! & (ii) because it does also help to ease seeing past relatively low obstructions that might otherwise partially block you vision to the sides, but only moderately.

Kim · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 November, 2011, 04:40:18 pm »

I do that on the Streetmachine, where seeing over obstacles isn't usually a problem, too. Not only for increased forward visibility, but because I need the upright position to safely get a foot down (not an issue on a trike). Interestingly, in doing so I render my mirror useless, but automatically switch to looking over my shoulder as on an upright.

Wombat · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 November, 2011, 09:13:17 pm »

Right, we have a "part 2" to all this. And part 3...

Part 2 is that we visited the accident site, and had considerable concern about an unofficial sign that had been erected. We have expressed these concerns to the police, and they wish to speak to me about them. This could involve the borrowing of a suitable vehicle to test this with, but I actually think its so obvious you don't need a trike to prove it.

Part 3 is that the police now wish to release said trike. I have absolutely no idea of its condition, nor does Geoff's partner. It is evident she does not want to see it, and I fully understand that, as her partner was killed whilst riding it. If, and it is a very big if, the machine is essentially intact, we will be trying to get it into the back of a Skoda Octavia estate. Will it fit? Height may be an issue, possibly? What is the easiest way to reduce its dimensions, assuming they have not already been reduced by the accident. Apart from sitting on it once, in the dark, I am very unfamiliar with the machine, so I will obviously take a toolkit, with a view to removing wheels if we have a space problem.

After that, I may need further advice from you chaps as to how to proceed with it. It will be coming to my home for initial assessment, to see if it just needs some repairs, or is it total scrap (but something must be recoverable, surely?). if it or components are saleable, then they/it will be sold, and the proceeds go to charity. I can cope with road bikes, Dahons and Moultons, but I'm out of my depth with this! Luckily I'm O.K. with engineering challenges... As well as the windcheetah there will be a Brompton (model unknown at present) an old F frame Moulton, an ordinary, and 2 curly stayed Hetchins to rehome. I may buy the smaller Hetchins myself as I used to ride it for a couple of years. Its a scary ultra short wheelbase thing with strange angles. Bloody lethal. mor eupdates on the other bikes will be posted in other bits of YACF later.

Cunobelin · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 November, 2011, 10:00:37 pm »

Quote from: Wombat on 28 November, 2011, 09:13:17 pm

Right, we have a "part 2" to all this. And part 3...

Part 2 is that we visited the accident site, and had considerable concern about an unofficial sign that had been erected. We have expressed these concerns to the police, and they wish to speak to me about them. This could involve the borrowing of a suitable vehicle to test this with, but I actually think its so obvious you don't need a trike to prove it.

If the Gekko or particularly the Catrike Expedition fit your criteria, and can help let me know.

Quote

Part 3 is that the police now wish to release said trike. I have absolutely no idea of its condition, nor does Geoff's partner. It is evident she does not want to see it, and I fully understand that, as her partner was killed whilst riding it. If, and it is a very big if, the machine is essentially intact, we will be trying to get it into the back of a Skoda Octavia estate. Will it fit? Height may be an issue, possibly? What is the easiest way to reduce its dimensions, assuming they have not already been reduced by the accident. Apart from sitting on it once, in the dark, I am very unfamiliar with the machine, so I will obviously take a toolkit, with a view to removing wheels if we have a space problem.

The unpacking and assembly instructions for a Windcheetah are here, they also list tools and reversing the assembly will enable you to disassemble. The height is reduced by removing the seat and rear wheel, and even smaller by removing the front wheels.

Quote

After that, I may need further advice from you chaps as to how to proceed with it. It will be coming to my home for initial assessment, to see if it just needs some repairs, or is it total scrap (but something must be recoverable, surely?). if it or components are saleable, then they/it will be sold, and the proceeds go to charity. I can cope with road bikes, Dahons and Moultons, but I'm out of my depth with this! Luckily I'm O.K. with engineering challenges... As well as the windcheetah there will be a Brompton (model unknown at present) an old F frame Moulton, an ordinary, and 2 curly stayed Hetchins to rehome. I may buy the smaller Hetchins myself as I used to ride it for a couple of years. Its a scary ultra short wheelbase thing with strange angles. Bloody lethal. mor eupdates on the other bikes will be posted in other bits of YACF later.

Here goes.....

Would Kevin at DTek take and or give advice on the Windcheetah?
A to B magazine would be a start for the folders.
I would have suggested CycleMagic for the Ordinary, but they have closed
Hilldodger of this Parish has some experience of Ordinaries and may be able to give advice

Wombat · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 November, 2011, 08:11:56 am »

Thanks, thats excellent stuff, and it looks easy enough. I have no shortage of tools!

The Brommie and Moulton will get sold via either AtoB and/or Moultoneers (I think the Moulton may need a little TLC but its basically fine), and the Hetchins and the ordinary will take time, and I will of course be coming here first!

As for test run with recumbent, I personaly think what I have already will do it (video taken from the correct height, and stills taken from a tripod set at the correct height), but if they want more, I'll be back....

My motive for this? From talking to Geoff's partner, the motorcyclist who hit him is very distressed indeed, I think we may be able to ease his pain a bit. We believe both "participants" had their view of each other obstructed far more than they may have realised at the time.

Many, many thanks to you all on this! However, the mere mention of Moultons is potentially dangerous to my bank balance. Geoff had been exhorting me to get the TSR I had been musing over...

Tim · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 November, 2011, 08:57:01 am »

You'll be able to get it in the back of an Octavia if you put the seats down (may also require adjustment of passenger seat, so you may want to be alone in the car) and taking the seat off the 'cheetah (done by taking the seat padding off: finger job, and unbolting the seat: four nuts hidden under the padding which may just require fingers or may want a socket set). Take a tarp to line the boot. This should be a three minute process and you can leave the wheels on the trike.

Sorry, but I feel guilty about this declaring of a vested interest but if it looks a mess I'm interested in a couple of spare parts as mine is currently off the road in need of some specific stuffs.

Wombat · « **Reply #20 on:** 29 November, 2011, 12:37:13 pm »

Tim,
Don't feel guilty, if a member of the cycling community gets benefit, then thats good. More news when the police officer has replied to my text (I expect he's off duty right now) and we have collected it and got an initial impression of its condition.

Quint · « **Reply #21 on:** 29 November, 2011, 07:29:59 pm »

Would Kevin at DTek take and or give advice on the Windcheetah?

It goes without saying that Kevin will help, he's that sort of guy

Wombat · « **Reply #22 on:** 04 December, 2011, 04:05:13 pm »

I'll fnd out what help I'll need in the next couple of days. The police phoned today, to say could I collect it from the storage yard ASAP. Not quite sure how I'm going to cope with providing a temporary home to, and repairing, the vehicle my mate was killed on, but we'll see.

The sign at the junction that I was unhappy about has been removed...

Wombat · « **Reply #23 on:** 06 December, 2011, 10:04:15 pm »

I now have the Windcheetah at home. The rear wheel didn't want to come off, to fit in the car, so as half the spokes were broken anyway (and so is the hub) I used wirecutters to cut the other spokes and removed it that way. Horribly crude, but I was close to having a wobbly fit anyway, so I just got it over with. Its very considerate of them to pick up Geoff's very distinctive glove at the accident scene and leave it on the seat of the trike, but it wasn't doing much good for my peace of mind finding it there.

Here are pictures of it crammed into my untidy workshop. The casting that supports the seat is broken, as is the joystick handle (the bit you actually hold to steer).

Here is my Picasa album of those photos.
https://picasaweb.google.com/105057261252117736428/Windcheetah209?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCLX22s38m4miYQ&feat=directlink

Better photos in daylight at the weekend.

Any advice or suggestions as to how I deal with it are welcome, I'm out of my depth here. I suspect it might just be a case of selling it as a restoration project. It is Windcheetah no 209, marked as being Burrows, not AVD.

Help much appreciated, please.

Arellcat · « **Reply #24 on:** 06 December, 2011, 10:21:26 pm »

If Speedy no. 209 has a straight main tube and the yellow castings are mostly ok - the central cross piece being most important - then it could be made better again with some parts from Bob Dixon. The joystick could perhaps be repaired with a bit of work, but the seat bracket is trickier. It's only 7 younger than mine, made in about 1994 by Bob, when AVD was called Seat of the Pants.