Author Topic: Active 10  (Read 11589 times)

Active 10
« on: 11 June, 2008, 07:57:39 am »
Is anybody using one of these on their bike?

The Ultimate GPS system with Ordnance Survery maps - Satmap : way ahead

I use Ordnance Survey maps and am thinking of switching from paper to electronic. I am a camping tourist, not terribly interested in off road excepting the very occasional bridle path, and I'd like to stick with OS 1:50,000.

I'd appreciate any advice or opinions, please.
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toekneep

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #1 on: 11 June, 2008, 08:11:04 am »
My first reaction was, brilliant, I want one. However, the more I think about it and the more I prefer my current solution. I use Tracklogs digital mapping. Its excellent for planning routes in the first place and I then print out the relevant sheets at 1:50,000 taking care to take in a reasonable surrounding area where I can. I print the sheets back to back and end up with a very compact route map. I can also add waymarks of my own showing planned campsites, potential lunch stops or places of interest etc. I particularly like the option to add the telephone number of campsites to the map. (I guess you could probably do that on this device, I didn't read all the details).

Back to the Active 10, how would you charge it on a camping trip? I would also be worried about leaving it unattended on the bike, I just know I would do that sooner than later.

Just my few pennies worth.

Re: Active 10
« Reply #2 on: 11 June, 2008, 08:13:24 am »
Looks interesting but very expensive when you look at the mapping.   

Chris S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #3 on: 11 June, 2008, 08:28:01 am »
It would be OK for static navigation - ie, looking at when you are stopped, like an electronic map. But, and I think this point has been made by others on previous threads; OS level detail just doesn't work for real-time, on the move navigation on a bike.

So much of your attention goes on riding your bike, you just haven't got time to take the detail in, which is wobbling around on your handlebars, and is probably very small.

Damn - I find it hard enough to read routesheet instructions sometimes.

The maps on those Garmin models that have maps, are deliberately sparse. There's enough info there for me - but no more, so its not cluttered, easy to interpret at a glance, and shows what I need to know for navigation - namely, the roads and my route.

Rob S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #4 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:18:21 am »
It would be OK for static navigation - ie, looking at when you are stopped, like an electronic map. But, and I think this point has been made by others on previous threads; OS level detail just doesn't work for real-time, on the move navigation on a bike.

Sounds like you haven't used one. I was quite well travelled prior to buying mine but the rides I did in areas I've never ridden before were exclusively on A and B roads...and small towns encountered on route would be missed because I'd follow the road signage which points to the bypass rather than through them.

But now huge chunks of rides are on country lanes that I'd never have used without the A10...the routes are plotted on my Memory Map then uploaded and the difference in the style of route pre and post A10 are crystal clear.  If you were to follow me riding through an area full of unsigned country lanes that I've never even been near before, in the dark, you'd think I'd been riding that route all my life. The mapping is very easy to see, even in bright light without having to stop by the roadside...you can zoom in and out...admittedly you can't see a huge area of mapping in one go because it's a 3.5 inch screen but I've even scrolled around the map whilst on the move (after checking the road out ahead of course)

Sure I used to take printed directions or sometimes as many as 4 OS Landrangers and upload screencaps of Memory Map to my digicam to help negotiate big towns etc but that wasn't very good on the move and also no good if I decided to change my mind where I wanted to go.....I have the whole of England and Wales south of Manchester at 1:50,000 on my handlebars all the time it's no longer a problem. It's great for impromptu detours when you see an interesting looking lane or feature whilst out that you didn't when you were working out your route on your PC or as happened a couple of weeks ago a road was shut due to resurfacing.

It's expensive, especially as that is all it does, but I love it.

Chris S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #5 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:21:08 am »
Sounds like you haven't used one.

You're right :)

Re: Active 10
« Reply #6 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:29:29 am »
I haven't used mine much yet on a route which I don't know.  This will be it's first proper test, but it is quite impressive being able to see where you are on a Landranger map, and it does show you what's around you.

It isn't as expensive as you may think, I've got the bottom half of the UK for about £90, which is close to 100 Landrangers, which would normally be about £7 each.  That money wouldn't quite buy you 13 Landrangers.  Now admittedly it's not quite the same thing, since I can't spread these maps out to look at the large scale, but equally I can't carry 100 Landrangers at all times, and I have used the mapping on the Active-10 as a quick reference to check on things on the map, when I otherwise wouldn't have had any access to the Landranger level of detail.

As for leaving it on the bike, well I automatically strip my bike of computers, lights, panniers etc, depending on where/when I'm stopping.  I've never forgotten yet, even at the end of a FNRttC, and my bike lights cost around the same as an Active-10 ! (Exposure front light, Dinotte rear, plus some LD1100s, it's a not insignificant amount of money).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

frankly frankie

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #7 on: 11 June, 2008, 05:14:37 pm »
We all love OS maps but as I see it the main problem is they aren't scaleable.  Ok you can zoom in and out a bit but you soon run out of detail if you zoom in and zooming out only gives you clutter until you switch to a smaller-scale map (which I believe the Satmap does).
For me, it would only match up to the Garmin mapping if it zoomed in to a 1:25,000 map, then switched to the A-Z street map.
After all, the smallest possible point on a 1:50,000 map (say, the intersection of 2 grid lines) is going to translate to a square about 20m x 20m on the ground - and I don't think road junctions are plotted anything like that accurately on the 1:50,000 series - well OK that is 'good enough' for cycling but well short of the precision that GPS is capable of.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Wascally Weasel

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #8 on: 12 October, 2008, 07:20:01 pm »
I saw the Satmap stand at the Cycle Show and was impressed with the A10 - I like the OS Map functionality (I use the 1:250,000 maps that it comes preloaded with a fair bit for long distance rides already).

I'm glad they weren't selling at the show as I've got time to think about if it's a good idea to get one (I bought something from Memory Map on Saturday on impulse that I took back the next day as unsuitable - if I go to the cycle show next year it will be sans credit card)

Are current yacf A10 users still happy with it and what other comments about it do you have?

Re: Active 10
« Reply #9 on: 12 October, 2008, 08:11:20 pm »
I'm still happy with mine, but it's not necessarily ideal for all occasions.

I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that.  You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.

It works wonderfully well at night, but in daylight the screens are just a little too shiny and reflective to work well in bright sunlight, which can be annoying.  You can use it, but sometimes the sun can be in just the wrong place.

A couple of software downloads have made it pretty reliable now.  The only time I've had it crash on me recently, is when I've changed the backlight brightness at the end of a FNRttC.  It may be coincidence, but twice when I've done that, it's locked up and I've had to pop the battery out to get it to reboot.  Not a biggee, and it's a lot more reliable than when I first got it, it had an annoying habit of stopping updating the screen after a few hours use, although it would continue to record the route into it's memory.

I have got use to the foibles of transferring routes in and out of it.  Since I tend to create routes with Bikely, the "follow the road" option seems to create routes with thousands of points, which reasonably enough made the Active 10 a bit slow.  It would still work, but the screen could lag behind a bit sometimes.  Using GPSBabel to slim the route down cured that.  Likewise a recording of the track you've been following also has thousands of data points, and Bikely doesn't always like that either, so GPSBabel simplifying the route before you upload it to Bikely also makes things work better in that direction.  Not a big issue, but handy once you work it out.

I think the Active 10 would be excellent for walking, although I haven't used it like that yet.  It does work fairly well for cycling, but it can be difficult to read any details on a screen that small when in motion.  Like any device, you don't really want to be concentrating on the screen whilst hammering down a hill at 30+mph, and that's probably true of most GPS and bike computers.  If all else fails you can always stop to inspect the route!

You can't really fault the ability to carry the entire UK 1:50000 mapping on one small device.  The screen isn't really ideal for planning a route overall, but it's fine for checking on basic features, like what road you are on, and what was that strange thing you just cycled by.  The screen is a mite small, but again that's a limitation of it being a portable device, there's always going to be a compromise between being able to view large areas of map, and being able to make the thing small enough to be sensible.  I think they've got it about right.

I haven't really stressed the batteries on mine, but glancing at it from time to time, and with the screen on a 3 minute timeout, it easily seems to last through an entire FNRttC (this is on the Li-Ion battery).  How long it would last if I left the screen on permanently isn't something I've investigated yet, but it's probably a significant fraction of a nights cycling.  You can always carry one or two extra batteries (if you can afford it! It's £30 for a spare battery).

Mainly I like the fact that I've got a map of where I am, wherever I go.  I haven't had to bother digging out my OS maps for a cycle for ages now.  I still have to use something like Bikely to plan things, but that's reasonable enough, since the bigger screen makes it a lot easier.  You can plan a route on the Active 10, but it's a lot fiddlier that way, and you spend a lot of time zooming in and out of the screen to see where you are.

It's not perfect, but at the moment it's the only game in town, and I think it's a reasonable effort.  If you aren't desperate for it, waiting for the next generation device will almost certainly increase usability, and features, but I think they've done a fair job with this one.  The post above may seem to rather list the negatives, but it's much easier to see those.  I think having all these maps with you, all the time, is really great, and more than worth the odd niggle.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #10 on: 13 October, 2008, 12:51:56 pm »
I have got use to the foibles of transferring routes in and out of it.  Since I tend to create routes with Bikely, the "follow the road" option seems to create routes with thousands of points, which reasonably enough made the Active 10 a bit slow.  It would still work, but the screen could lag behind a bit sometimes.  Using GPSBabel to slim the route down cured that.  Likewise a recording of the track you've been following also has thousands of data points, and Bikely doesn't always like that either, so GPSBabel simplifying the route before you upload it to Bikely also makes things work better in that direction.  Not a big issue, but handy once you work it out.

FWIW Bikely is much happier with routes with thousands of points under Firefox than it is under IE.

A quick test using this route of 6812 points:-

Bicycle Path - Putney to Thorne actual at Bikely.com

and FireFox brings up the page in half the time of IE, same amount of memory used though (80MB).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Active 10
« Reply #11 on: 13 October, 2008, 02:34:32 pm »
FWIW Bikely is much happier with routes with thousands of points under Firefox than it is under IE.

A quick test using this route of 6812 points:-

Bicycle Path - Putney to Thorne actual at Bikely.com

and FireFox brings up the page in half the time of IE, same amount of memory used though (80MB).

I've been using Firefox with Bikely.  It's not that it can't display the routes, but sometimes with editing things, it can behave a bit strange.  Occasionally I've had bits of the data where the GPS has gone nuts, either due to large buildings or during power-on, and the points have been miles away from where they should be.  When editing these points out with Bikely, it can sometimes seem to move other points to weird locations.  I've got no idea why it does it, but it seems to be a function of having a lot of data points.

Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.  I forget exactly what size ones have caused problems, but probably an entire nights worth of FNRttC at 1 fix / second, which could be 36000 data points (say I leave home at 10-30pm and get back at 8-30am).  Even with advanced power control active, it'll still be 9000 data points (or more, I didn't get back from the last FNRttC until about midday).

Frankly, it's also a damn site easier to deal with a 500 or 1000 data point track for a ride, and GPSBabel does simplify in a sensible manner, so long straight lines only have a few points, whereas going around curves have a lot more.  I've simplified a FNRttC down by a factor of 10 or more in the number of points, with no significant degradation of the track.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

frankly frankie

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #12 on: 13 October, 2008, 06:11:18 pm »
Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.

Which is not exactly unreasonable.

(People who email me with large attachments don't get replies, either - I've set my mail client to delete them from the server unread.)
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Active 10
« Reply #13 on: 13 October, 2008, 06:22:03 pm »
Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.

Which is not exactly unreasonable.

(People who email me with large attachments don't get replies, either - I've set my mail client to delete them from the server unread.)

This isn't a complaint about Bikely, just an observation.  Even when it does upload a large file, it takes a while to do it, so it's good technique to avoid this, and massage the data initially with GPSBabel to make it a bit more manageable.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

jellied

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #14 on: 13 October, 2008, 10:15:31 pm »
I too caught a demo of the little fellow at the CycleShow and was very impressed. I've tried all sorts of combinations of devices but only this fulfills everything - rugged, long battery life, OS maps including street level, quick start up. The only problem is cost and maybe having to swap maps by swap SD cards.

No idea if it's compatable with Memory in terms of downloading routes easily.

The guy said the new firm ware is far better than version 1 - which doesn't surprise me. Still a pricey investment but probably cheaper than Otter box, PDA, GPS rec'r etc etc.
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Re: Active 10
« Reply #15 on: 14 October, 2008, 12:16:10 am »
In essence I think the only type of data that you import and export from the Active 10 is GPX, but that's a relatively open data format, so reasonably flexible.

Satmap have a scheme now, which will combine cards, so if you have several maps, and you want them on one card, they will merge them.  I think it costs £15 to do this.  Also helpfully, the last software update also allowed the use of SDHC cards, so this should also help merging large amounts of map data.

My 1:50000 southern half of the UK map is about 1.3 GBytes, so I guess the entire UK at that scale would be around 2.6 GBytes.  1:25000 mapping should be around four times the size (all other things being equal), so if you could afford it, I guess the entire UK at 1:25000 would be around 5.2 GBytes, which could theoretically be fitted on an SDHC.  (Based on a 110km x 110km block costing £195, the 245000 km2 of the UK would be £4000 !)
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

frankly frankie

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Re: Active 10
« Reply #16 on: 14 October, 2008, 04:47:38 pm »
Another issue, is that with really big files, Bikely won't upload them.
Which is not exactly unreasonable.
This isn't a complaint about Bikely, just an observation.  Even when it does upload a large file, it takes a while to do it, so it's good technique to avoid this, and massage the data initially with GPSBabel to make it a bit more manageable.

Sorry, I know it was just an observation, and I agree about the good technique.  I'm a bit surprised that your files are 1 fix/sec - is that the default setup with the Active 10?  A Garmin wouldn't normally do this (though it can be persuaded to, in the menus) - it downsamples by about 5x when writing the track, by default.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Active 10
« Reply #17 on: 14 October, 2008, 05:02:30 pm »
I've never checked it too carefully, but I think it just writes the data at the rate it's been sampled at.  It normal takes a fix every second, unless you're in "advanced power control" mode, in which case it only takes one sample every four seconds.

There isn't really any facility to change what rate the data is recorded at, it's just part of the power saving mechanism that the rate is slower when in that mode.

I think it doesn't bother to record samples if it "sees" that you're stationary, but since there is always some "movement" (ie noise on the doppler creates apparent low speed movement), you always seem to get some samples recorded.

The data files do tend to be hoooge.  Luckily it has plenty of memory, so this doesn't seem to be an issue.  I guess at some point it would run out, but I don't know what happens then.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Rob S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #18 on: 14 October, 2008, 06:27:48 pm »
Had mine for just short of a year...and still loving it. It's a lot more stable with the latest firmware. I have the screen on all the time and have about 6 hours of constant use before I change the 3 AA 2500mAh batteries.

Whilst I have Memory Map to workout a route to get the exact length the version I upload to the unit has relatively few waypoints set to the side of the roads to be taken so I can see things easier.

It's definately changed the types of routes I create...I'm lucky to be able to travel by train for free and am able to ride over much of southern England every day off, I can use the Active 10  to do a lot of exploring new places on C-roads and I feel I get my money's worth out of it.  :thumbsup:

Re: Active 10
« Reply #19 on: 24 October, 2008, 02:28:50 pm »
Like Rob S I've had mine for some time. I use the optional Lithium-polymer battery cell and if I use the Satmap in "power-save" mode and set to "north-up" rather than "track up" I can get over thirteen hours of continuous use with the screen constantly on. If I set the screen to shut off after, say 30 or 60 seconds (user selectable up to 15 minutes - one button press restores the screen) I'm sure I'd get much longer duration from the battery- I haven't tried it on a really long ride, but I can do twelve hours this way without denting the battery condition indicator.

At night it's great - just 10% of backlight power is more than adequate to display the rolling OS map. It's zoomable through several scales of map - the 1:250,000 and above are very useful for getting an overview before zooming in to the 1:50,000 to fine tune or follow a route. You can devise your route "on the fly" and it will go exactlywhere you want it to, unlike the temperamental Garmin "auto-routing" function which I find very cyclist-unfriendly.

I saw the imminent on-line route planner at the Cycle show - this appears to work in the same way as on the A10 itself - i.e you can plot your guideline alongside the roads if you wish - I agree with Rob S: this sometimes is easier to read - and make it go where you want.

Re: Active 10
« Reply #20 on: 13 February, 2009, 07:31:14 pm »
Having now found, & read, this thread, I think it's answered most of my questions. Ta, everyone. Mrs B has just surprised me with one for my birthday, complete with bike mount & a map card with national trails (I'd have preferred the southern England one, but shouldn't quibble - I can get that for myself). Nice present. I have informed her of my deep pleasure, with no complaints about the choice of maps.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Active 10
« Reply #21 on: 13 February, 2009, 11:26:52 pm »
Having now found, & read, this thread, I think it's answered most of my questions. Ta, everyone. Mrs B has just surprised me with one for my birthday, complete with bike mount & a map card with national trails (I'd have preferred the southern England one, but shouldn't quibble - I can get that for myself). Nice present. I have informed her of my deep pleasure, with no complaints about the choice of maps.
Welcome to the Active 10 cycling users group! I hope you find it as good as I have. If you've a mind to, you can brush up on a lot of info here:
Pocket GPS World - SatNavs | GPS | Speed Cameras Keep an open mind - like many a forum, this receives a lot of grumbles but there is a lot of useful gen if you sift through it all.

P.S. - take no notice that it says "Speed cameras" - this should take you to the Satmap topics list. I don't know how to attach the link to a simple word!

Re: Active 10
« Reply #22 on: 14 February, 2009, 12:34:50 am »
... P.S. - take no notice that it says "Speed cameras" - this should take you to the Satmap topics list. I don't know how to attach the link to a simple word!

Just place the text you want to link to inside of the appropriate BBCode tags, like this:

  [url=http://www.link.here.com/]Text for Link[/url]

which would produce this:

  Text for Link
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #23 on: 14 February, 2009, 12:45:05 am »
Thanks for the link, Pedro.

I'm not a full member yet. First, I have to use it.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Active 10
« Reply #24 on: 14 February, 2009, 10:21:42 am »
Just place the text you want to link to inside of the appropriate BBCode tags, like this:
[url=http://www.link.here.com/]Text for Link[/url]
which would produce this:
Text for Link


OK, thanks - I get it now - like this: Here