Author Topic: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start  (Read 18000 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #25 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:19:03 pm »
I look forward to velomobiles taking all the TT records.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #26 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:20:26 pm »
Moser's disk wheels didn't have the minimum number of spokes allowed in the rules at the time.

I thought he got around the rules by using regular wheels with fairings rather than solid disc wheels, but on matters to do with the history of racing, I will always bow to your superior knowledge...

Quote
Did you know that Fignon wanted to use aerobars at the 1989 Grand Prix de Nations TT after the TdF and was prevented from doing so by the commissaires? So much for consistency.

This, for example, is something I didn't know about. Something to do with different race organisation, perhaps?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #27 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:23:23 pm »
I look forward to velomobiles taking all the TT records.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

It might make the TT stages in big races more interesting if the pros were allowed to ride recumbents.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #28 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:37:40 pm »
Moser's disks were not covers. The UCI disallowed wheel covers as being aerodynamic additions. Mr Larrington commented about that earlier.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #29 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:41:18 pm »
Mr Larrington commented about that earlier.

Ah! I didn't realise that's what he meant. I get it now.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #30 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:34:28 pm »
We could go back to the time when the TdF organisers supplied the bikes (or was it just the frames) for all the competitors. We could ban derailleurs. Given the effort now required to prevent motors in frames this might be the last straw for machine examiners, especially in amateur races where the funds and officials are harder pressed but we could do it. Why not pennies and solid tyres (probably because someone will find that the riding position on a penny doesn't comply with UCI rules)? Will the racing be any better because of it?

I have often thought that there is a place for "Formule Libre" in cycle racing - no mechanical rules, no doping rules (possibly just the right to rip apart the bike of anyone you suspected of being motorised - or punch him in the nuts). Great spectacle, great entertainment. Of course participants would have to expect that they were banned from Olympics, clean sport etc because the assumption would be that they were all doped. At the same time all proven dopers (maybe even suspect ones) would be banned for life for the first offence.

FWIW my eldest daughter uses tri-bars. She has never been anywhere near a tt in her life (although she has the power in her legs to do well); she has tri-bars because she has weak wrists and it gives her a means of resting them. She also doesn't use drops for the same reason. Tri-bars no use to ordinary riders - go pull the other one!

OTOH I frequently feel that track sprinting was much more lively before everyone adopted discs. It seems to me that the variations in speed were more vivid somehow. Discs seem to reduce it to a challenge of force with little finesse.

Of course it's all a nonsense because the racing, particularly crashes, is much more spectacular in recumbent races.  8)

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #31 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:39:02 pm »
The rules are the nub. Disk wheels and aerobars were against the rules in place at the time.

Sailing has single class racing. Cycling has the Little 500, which is the nearest thing.

To continue on the sailing tack. I sail a one design (viper 640) but one boat can have an 80lb weight difference to another due to the inaccuracies during the laying up process.
Further to that a point. I live and sail in Bermuda where we currently have the Americas cup guys out training for next years event. Its all "one design" but still a multi million dollar space race.
often lost.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #32 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:40:17 pm »
Moser's disk wheels didn't have the minimum number of spokes allowed in the rules at the time.

I thought he got around the rules by using regular wheels with fairings rather than solid disc wheels, but on matters to do with the history of racing, I will always bow to your superior knowledge...

You wanting to borrow money from me? Don't trust my memory for fine details but it is ok for broad brush stuff.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #33 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:50:13 pm »
It's a problem I have with TT.  It never stops being a test of equipment until you get to Pro-Team level (and even then there are "Marginal Gains").

Even as a test against yourself it's dubious, if you "upgrade".

An aero helmet makes a huge substantial difference, as do disc wheels.

I'm of the opinion that it should be done on "standard" bikes, in order to stop the escalation.  Clearly there are always marginal gains but the differences between a typical road bike and a dedicated TT bike are now extreme.

I mean ...please!!


How about just the one bike for the Grand Tours?  Choose your bike and your gearing at the start.... and live with it.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #34 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:51:20 pm »
Amateur motorcycle racing has or had classes where all the bikes were one stock design, usually a cheap one like MZ, all fettled by a pool of mechanics and riders drew lots on the day for each bike. There are/were also classes where you could do pretty much what you wanted to the bike but at the end of the season, the winner's machine was sold for a fixed, cheap price – I remember it as £150 in the late '80s for souped up moped racing (or maybe that was MZs?) – to whoever wanted it. Motorbikes don't need to fit the rider in quite the same way so the first idea might not work but the second could. As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #35 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:54:32 pm »
TTs and road racing should use basically the same bike. Since tri-bars and disc wheels are banned in road racing, they should be banned in TTs as well.

Yup, sounds good to me. It doesnt do club racing any favours that you need two bikes to be competitive - that is a clear advantage for those with deeper pockets (or perhaps bigger garages??).There are probably struggling pro teams who could also do with saving a few swiss francs - or what about olympic teams from developing countries?

The technology lovers can still drool over the latest road bikes.

People here are worried about losing their tri-bars that they use in non-sport cycling - well that's fine. The things exist already, as do plenty of adaptations out there for disabled riders (who often cannot ride UCI-legal bikes anyway). The market will survive.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #36 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:56:18 pm »
You wanting to borrow money from me? Don't trust my memory for fine details but it is ok for broad brush stuff.

Ha! More an admission that I know nothing.

I did double check about Moser's wheels with some internet research, and you are correct. Another pertinent fact about Moser's wheels is that they were different sizes - that wouldn't be allowed now, of course.

Certain other aspects of Moser's approach to the Hour record wouldn't be allowed now as well...
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #37 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:58:31 pm »
I'm of the opinion that it should be done on "standard" bikes, in order to stop the escalation.

If only there were such a thing as a "standard" bike...

Even the UCI's notoriously strict rules are flexible enough to allow for huge variations in legal designs.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #38 on: 28 November, 2016, 05:59:55 pm »
Boris bikes all round.  Teams are allowed to pump up the tyres.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #39 on: 28 November, 2016, 06:03:05 pm »
We could go back to the time when the TdF organisers supplied the bikes (or was it just the frames) for all the competitors. We could ban derailleurs. Given the effort now required to prevent motors in frames this might be the last straw for machine examiners, especially in amateur races where the funds and officials are harder pressed but we could do it.
It's not that difficult to spot a derailleur!

(You can't use funding as an excuse - the bikes already need to conform to plenty of rules that take ages to check, and are in fact broadly ignored in the lower categories.)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #40 on: 28 November, 2016, 07:28:42 pm »
Our local racing scene has "road bike" & "TT bike" category. Points awarded don't take into account which bike you choose, its just noted in the results.
There is something immensely satisfying about reeling in the TT bikes.
often lost.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #41 on: 28 November, 2016, 08:01:09 pm »
Our local racing scene has "road bike" & "TT bike" category. Points awarded don't take into account which bike you choose, its just noted in the results.
There is something immensely satisfying about reeling in the TT bikes.
Yup, this is an increasing and welcome trend.

I cannot see the day that the CTT or the UCI dare to change the rules, so in the meantime this is the best us luddites can hope for.  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #42 on: 28 November, 2016, 08:05:48 pm »
Our local racing scene has "road bike" & "TT bike" category. Points awarded don't take into account which bike you choose, its just noted in the results.
There is something immensely satisfying about reeling in the TT bikes.

what differentiates road bikes from tt bikes? e.g. would a road bike with a forward seatpost, clip-on aero bars and aero wheels be a road or a tt bike?

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #43 on: 28 November, 2016, 08:35:20 pm »
Amateur motorcycle racing has or had classes where all the bikes were one stock design, usually a cheap one like MZ, all fettled by a pool of mechanics and riders drew lots on the day for each bike. There are/were also classes where you could do pretty much what you wanted to the bike but at the end of the season, the winner's machine was sold for a fixed, cheap price – I remember it as £150 in the late '80s for souped up moped racing (or maybe that was MZs?) – to whoever wanted it. Motorbikes don't need to fit the rider in quite the same way so the first idea might not work but the second could. As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.

A better example is the current GP situation where Moto2 and Moto3 are based on common items, motors as far as I can remember. The problem with the MZs in FLRC was that they rapidly got very expensive to prepare (relative to their perceived value). IIRC before I left UK £1000 was not excessive for engine prep. The other thing was the rule allowing all models but stipulating that the brakes had to conform with the model so chassis prep for the older models got a bit complicated (drum-braked Earles forks racing against disc-braked telescopic forks). I was quite keen when they announced the idea but rapidly lost interest on reading the rulebook. The cost of being competitive has always tended to be more important in any form of racing when the base specification is very restricted.

I don't really see why recumbent riders would want to mix with upright pro racers. They have a pretty exciting racing scene as far as I can see in some countries already. I'm not sure if either riders or constructors have anything to gain short term (it might just overstretch their resources). Long term is another matter but as one wise man said"long term we're all dead".

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #44 on: 28 November, 2016, 08:50:07 pm »
Our local racing scene has "road bike" & "TT bike" category. Points awarded don't take into account which bike you choose, its just noted in the results.
There is something immensely satisfying about reeling in the TT bikes.

what differentiates road bikes from tt bikes? e.g. would a road bike with a forward seatpost, clip-on aero bars and aero wheels be a road or a tt bike?

As soon as you clip bars on its considered TT. In actuality the TT entrants tend to be the triathlon guys who will have a full-on TT bike. Some of the shorter twister/hillier routes are probably a wash in terms of advantage, or would suit an aero road bike over a TT machine.

Not seen anyone on a road bike with a full disc wheel or a full aero helmet. Lots of regular enve 3:4' type wheels on the road bikes though and thats kosher.
often lost.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #45 on: 28 November, 2016, 09:14:19 pm »
FWIW, in the Netherlands it's quite common to see city bikes with tribars added to give another position. 

Our local racing scene has "road bike" & "TT bike" category. Points awarded don't take into account which bike you choose, its just noted in the results.
There is something immensely satisfying about reeling in the TT bikes.

what differentiates road bikes from tt bikes? e.g. would a road bike with a forward seatpost, clip-on aero bars and aero wheels be a road or a tt bike?

When I was in the North East, they had a roadman leage.  Rules were:
No tribars
No aero helmets
No wheels deeper than whatever limit it was

Those seem to be the usual rules for these sorts of things. 

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #46 on: 29 November, 2016, 09:04:23 am »
It's a problem I have with TT.  It never stops being a test of equipment until you get to Pro-Team level (and even then there are "Marginal Gains").

Even as a test against yourself it's dubious, if you "upgrade".

An aero helmet makes a huge substantial difference, as do disc wheels.

I'm of the opinion that it should be done on "standard" bikes, in order to stop the escalation.  Clearly there are always marginal gains but the differences between a typical road bike and a dedicated TT bike are now extreme.

I mean ...please!!


How about just the one bike for the Grand Tours?  Choose your bike and your gearing at the start.... and live with it.

I don't believe that all of that is entirely true.    You can't just go out, but a TT bike and immediately go faster.

The top TT riders are continually pushing the boundaries in training, but also in aero optimisation.   It's not just an aero helmet, but the right aero helmet to work with your optimum body position and the shape of your shoulders - if you can't 'shrug' correctly a long tail helmet will just be like a shark fin.    All of this takes hours or work in a wind tunnel - if you're lucky enough to be able to access to one - or riding up and down your favourite local hill with a stopwatch.

Similarly discs help, but you need to find the right disc to work with your frame and the flow of air from your front wheel.

I'm not sure whether the point of the thread is to limit budget - F1 style - but my TT bike all in costs less than a lot of the road bikes you see on an average sportive.   The 10m champs last year were won on a bike that was put together 2nd hand for under a grand.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #47 on: 29 November, 2016, 09:11:18 am »
Similarly discs help, but you need to find the right disc to work with your frame and the flow of air from your front wheel.
I can't agree with that. If you took any rider on their favourite road-bike and swapped in a brand new disc, they would go measurably faster [assuming no serious crosswinds!]. Probably enough to make up several places in the midfield of my local 10milers.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #48 on: 29 November, 2016, 09:27:32 am »
Similarly discs help, but you need to find the right disc to work with your frame and the flow of air from your front wheel.
I can't agree with that. If you took any rider on their favourite road-bike and swapped in a brand new disc, they would go measurably faster [assuming no serious crosswinds!]. Probably enough to make up several places in the midfield of my local 10milers.

https://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/biggest-bang-for-your-buck-in-time-trial-equipment/

30 seconds over 25 miles.   This article backs up zigzag's number upthread.   If the spread of riders in the middle or your local 10 is 12 seconds then it's possible.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #49 on: 29 November, 2016, 09:57:59 am »
Luckily, we have had a number of such close battles this season, so I could safely use that example ;)

But I think you'd admit that 30secs over 25 miles would take a LOT of effort in any other area to achieve. People drive hundreds of miles for a similar course advantage!

It's certainly nothing like the chasm of time between me and the top 3 at any race. So none of this impacts my personal performances. But think about when your lad starts racing; If he's losing to kids on faster bikes by less than a minute, what will you tell him? Will you stump up for the 2nd race bike? Should all the other parents do likewise?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles