Winter Audax Tyres

[dim]

(I think that after 1500 km, they may start wearing thin).

I'm as much of a tyre tart as the next cyclist but 1500km? Really? 

Vittoria Rubino Pro (Graphene)

what I meant to say is that I doubt that the puncture protection will be very good from approx 1500km and I don't think that they will last as long as some of the other tyres (you wont get 4000 km out of these .... I'm guessing that at 2500km it will be time to ditch them (320tpi and cotton casings)

as for the Rubino Pro (Graphene), like I said, I've never used them but they were recomended to me. From what I understand, many members of the St Ives cycling club use them on their commuter bikes .... they are also fairly cheap (approx £20 each)
I'm friends with a guy whose job it is to find commercial applications for University of Manchester's tech. The fact that he's a keen cyclist and doesn't run these tyres probably says it all.

[Brucey]

you may accuse me of having a nasty suspicious mind, but I can't help but notice that there has been a marked lack of science explaining why (or demonstrating) that having graphene in your tyres might be a good thing.  I suspect that the presence of it has more to do with something else, like the ongoing investment funding for the company that supplies the Graphene is contingent upon it being used in industrial applications by a certain date. [This appears to be the case, looking at their website.]

Replacing carbon black in tyres is a technical molehill with extremely doubtful benefits (it might even make the tyres slippier...?), and cost-wise, I can't see that it makes sense at all, unless it is incredibly impure or they are giving it away.

cheers

[Duckfoot1606]

Durano plus are unlikely to be very much faster than Marathon Greenguards.

FWIW my preference is for a nice easy-rolling, supple/comfortable tyre, and to put up with the occasional puncture. But others have different priorities. 

One of the ways that puncture resistant tyres catch you out is in terms of comfort. It is easy to look at two tyres and see that at the same pressure one is about the same as another in terms of Crr. What may be hidden is that the one tyre may feel very different to the other, and that if you set them up to be as comfortable as one another (important on a long run, I'd say) then typically a puncture resistant tyre may be  set 10-15psi softer than another, at which point is a fair bit more draggy.

cheers

Very important points made here. I recently built an Audax bike around the Ribble steel frame. Using Durano tyres the bike was underwhelming, almost stodgy in the way it rode. A change to Michelin Pro 4 Endurance tyres has transformed the way it rides. 👍

[Samuel D]

(I think that after 1500 km, they may start wearing thin).

I'm as much of a tyre tart as the next cyclist but 1500km? Really? 

What do you expect for your £116?

Tyres make a big difference to speed – far more than most audax cyclists realise although they stand to gain more than faster cyclists for whom aerodynamic drag dominates.

The difference between the Schwalbe Marathon and the Continental Grand Prix 4000 S II is greater than Zed43 calculated earlier, because he or she only accounted for one wheel. There are two, which, making Zed43’s assumptions about all-up weight, roughly doubles the power difference to 14 W.

However, quixoticgeek rode at 19 km/h rather than Bicycle Rolling Resistance’s 29 km/h, taking the difference down to about 9 W. On the other hand, on typical roads the total losses go up by about 1.5 × compared to a drum test according to Tom Anhalt, so we’re back where we started at about 14 W.

For that value, Bike Calculator returns a speed difference of about 1.5 km/h at quixoticgeek’s speed, which would save about three-quarters of an hour over 200 km. You could fix at least three punctures in that time although it wouldn’t do anything for the cleanliness of your gloves.

If that time difference seems unbelievably large, your suspicions might be right in that it’s mid-winter and quixoticgeek and her bicycle are probably an aerodynamic disaster. Thus her power output may be higher than Bike Calculator assumes and the difference caused by tyres smaller in proportion. All the same, the speed difference would certainly be over 1 km/h.

There are tyres in between the Marathon and GP 4000 S II and they may be the ones to look at.

[zigzag]

i rode audaxes on my commuter with marathon+'s and time penalty was around 15min for 200km, when comparing the same event done on racing tyres. fast tyres feel much nicer, that can be a reason alone to choose racing tyres. so far i've ridden on gp4000s (including the festive1000 with lots of flinty/muddy lanes) and gp this winter (one puncture on the gp from a piece of wire). i just accept that i'll fix a flat tyre once in ~5000km which is no big deal at all, i always carry prk with me.

[Kim]

I'd say it comes down to comfort and how much you really don't want to have to deal with punctures in the cold and pish.  I'd certainly draw those lines in different places for audax than for utility riding, even in winter, but possibly not to the point where I'd bother swapping tyres around.

If you want to go faster, by far the easiest way is to reduce the faff.

13 hours for a winter 200 sounds okay to me.

[Paul H]

I'd say it comes down to comfort and how much you really don't want to have to deal with punctures in the cold and pish.  I'd certainly draw those lines in different places for audax than for utility riding, even in winter, but possibly not to the point where I'd bother swapping tyres around.

If you want to go faster, by far the easiest way is to reduce the faff.

13 hours for a winter 200 sounds okay to me.

+1 to all of that. 
There's also sometimes a connection between the comfort and the faff, either so glad to step off the bike that you're not thinking straight or simply faffing to delay getting back on with it.
All my calendar Audaxing involves leapfrogging faster riders, I'll usually get around a 200 in about 12 hours, but my average speed is rarely much above 18 kph.

[Zed43]

The difference between the Schwalbe Marathon and the Continental Grand Prix 4000 S II is greater than Zed43 calculated earlier, because he or she only accounted for one wheel. There are two, which, making Zed43’s assumptions about all-up weight, roughly doubles the power difference to 14 W.

Yes, that was a stupid oversight  (and my name is the avatar picture).

And I (now) completely agree with the gains that can be had for audax by spending money on tyres; not only for speed but also comfort. There was a time I when I considered paying 50+ euros for a wear-and-tear part like a tyre to be ridiculous, but I've come around 

[Si S]

(I think that after 1500 km, they may start wearing thin).

I'm as much of a tyre tart as the next cyclist but 1500km? Really? 

What do you expect for your £116?

Is that a genuine question? If so I suppose I'd be expecting somewhere in the region of 5k to 8k km. I guess it depends on the value you place on going a bit quicker.

As a total aside the price of bike tyres versus car tyres always amuses me, yes I know it's comparing apples to potatoes but working with dim's 2500km for £116 for two tyres was translated very roughly to a motorist using £1k of tyres to do 12000km I think you'd see far less cars on the road (that number looks so silly I'm convinced I've cocked up somewhere)

[mrcharly-YHT]

you may accuse me of having a nasty suspicious mind, but I can't help but notice that there has been a marked lack of science explaining why (or demonstrating) that having graphene in your tyres might be a good thing.  I suspect that the presence of it has more to do with something else, like the ongoing investment funding for the company that supplies the Graphene is contingent upon it being used in industrial applications by a certain date. [This appears to be the case, looking at their website.]

Replacing carbon black in tyres is a technical molehill with extremely doubtful benefits (it might even make the tyres slippier...?), and cost-wise, I can't see that it makes sense at all, unless it is incredibly impure or they are giving it away.

cheers

I don't think you have a nasty suspicious mind at all. I doubt there is any graphene at all in these tyres.

20 years ago one tyre manufacturer sold a tyre with a 'kevlar belt' that turned out to have no kevlar whatsoever. I've cut up a GP4seasons and found that the 'kevlar belt' was a thin strip 7mm wide.

A lot of manufacturer's claims are advertising hokum.

[Samuel D]

Is that a genuine question?

No, sorry. I still haven’t come around to Zed43’s view on €50+ bicycle tyres. One day I’d like to try the Turbo Cotton, but just as I was getting ready to do it last year the price went up from £50 to £58.

[Brucey]

although I suspect the graphene business to be cobblers (in almost every way) and I have seen a few perish prematurely, I would say that the tyres themselves seem to work OK, for the money. If you are going to wear them out before they perish, they seem like reasonable value to me.

Another comment I'd make is that the rear tyre makes a lot more difference than the front does because there is usually a lot more load on it. Thus if your tendency is to choose low Crr or high puncture resistance, spend the money there and use something that isn't so fancy on the front.

  For example even a £15 zaffiro pro in 28mm will grip and roll pretty well on the front, and leave you with cash to spare for a decent rear tyre. If the zaffiro pro punctures, who cares; it will come off the rim very easily and a front puncture can be fixed easily in a couple of minutes.

cheers

[dim]

Is that a genuine question?

No, sorry. I still haven’t come around to Zed43’s view on €50+ bicycle tyres. One day I’d like to try the Turbo Cotton, but just as I was getting ready to do it last year the price went up from £50 to £58.

pm me with your address and once I have approx 2500km on the Turbo Cottons, I will post them to you for free .... I currently have 1070 km on them, but I commute approx 260km a week, so it won't be too long to wait ....

they should still give you a few miles to try them .... they are the 24's (my 1980's Koga Miyata cannot fit wide tyres), but on wider rims (My Hed Belgium Plus), they measure approx 27mm wide

[Si S]

you may accuse me of having a nasty suspicious mind, but I can't help but notice that there has been a marked lack of science explaining why (or demonstrating) that having graphene in your tyres might be a good thing.  I suspect that the presence of it has more to do with something else, like the ongoing investment funding for the company that supplies the Graphene is contingent upon it being used in industrial applications by a certain date. [This appears to be the case, looking at their website.]

Replacing carbon black in tyres is a technical molehill with extremely doubtful benefits (it might even make the tyres slippier...?), and cost-wise, I can't see that it makes sense at all, unless it is incredibly impure or they are giving it away.

cheers

I don't think you have a nasty suspicious mind at all. I doubt there is any graphene at all in these tyres.

20 years ago one tyre manufacturer sold a tyre with a 'kevlar belt' that turned out to have no kevlar whatsoever. I've cut up a GP4seasons and found that the 'kevlar belt' was a thin strip 7mm wide.

A lot of manufacturer's claims are advertising hokum.

The truly cynical might think it's a way to dispose of nano dots that don't meet spec and ensure funding continues

[dim]

you may accuse me of having a nasty suspicious mind, but I can't help but notice that there has been a marked lack of science explaining why (or demonstrating) that having graphene in your tyres might be a good thing.  I suspect that the presence of it has more to do with something else, like the ongoing investment funding for the company that supplies the Graphene is contingent upon it being used in industrial applications by a certain date. [This appears to be the case, looking at their website.]

Replacing carbon black in tyres is a technical molehill with extremely doubtful benefits (it might even make the tyres slippier...?), and cost-wise, I can't see that it makes sense at all, unless it is incredibly impure or they are giving it away.

cheers

I don't think you have a nasty suspicious mind at all. I doubt there is any graphene at all in these tyres.

20 years ago one tyre manufacturer sold a tyre with a 'kevlar belt' that turned out to have no kevlar whatsoever. I've cut up a GP4seasons and found that the 'kevlar belt' was a thin strip 7mm wide.

A lot of manufacturer's claims are advertising hokum.

The truly cynical might think it's a way to dispose of nano dots that don't meet spec and ensure funding continues

if you think that's 'suspicious', my IRC tubeless tyres have rice bran in them 

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/road-tyres/products/2017-irc-formula-pro-rbcc-tubeless-road-tyres

[Si S]

Are they edible?

[Martin]

Personally I quite like the Vittoria Rubino Pro 28s - but I don't think they're regarded as particularly fast either.

Rubinos score very well on that rolling resistance testing website that everyone always links to as gospel.

I've been using a Rubino Pro III on the front and a Gatorskin on the back (both 23mm). I think I've had one actual puncture in over a year on this setup.

I use the bog standard Rubino on my winter bike with a folding Rubino Pro always carried as a spare (I use Pros on my other 2 bikes); they work well in most shitty roads and lanes

[Samuel D]

pm me with your address and once I have approx 2500km on the Turbo Cottons, I will post them to you for free ....

Hey, that’s a nice offer, thanks. I live in Paris, France so postage will cost more than you think – but if the tyre is still usable for a trial at that point, I’d happily PayPal you the cost of postage. Assuming I haven’t bought my own Turbo Cottons by then.

Earlier zigzag mentioned an estimated saving of 15 minutes with fast tyres. Keep in mind that he’s one of the fastest riders around and probably covers 200 km in half the time of some of us. Therefore he suffers more aerodynamic drag and proportionally less rolling resistance, and 15 minutes represents more of his total time.

[BrianI]

Durano plus are unlikely to be very much faster than Marathon Greenguards.

FWIW my preference is for a nice easy-rolling, supple/comfortable tyre, and to put up with the occasional puncture. But others have different priorities. 

One of the ways that puncture resistant tyres catch you out is in terms of comfort. It is easy to look at two tyres and see that at the same pressure one is about the same as another in terms of Crr. What may be hidden is that the one tyre may feel very different to the other, and that if you set them up to be as comfortable as one another (important on a long run, I'd say) then typically a puncture resistant tyre may be  set 10-15psi softer than another, at which point is a fair bit more draggy.

cheers

Well, Durano Plus are slick, compared to the tread on Marathon Greenguard, so they may well be faster in that aspect. They are somewhat stodgy though, so while I currently have a pair on my audax bike at the moment (in 622x25mm size) I'll probably fit something nicer in the Spring / Summer.

[Kim]

I reckon a bit of a tread pattern is worth having in autumn/winter - in the UK, anyway.  There's plenty of mud on the lanes, and it can give you a fighting chance against leaf chutney.

Fast tyres don't help if you have to slow to a crawl in anticipation of loss of control.

[quixoticgeek]

I was about to hit buy on a pair of GP 4 Season 28mm tyres, when I realised they don't have reflective side walls. Which is a pain, as a lot of my rides cross into Germany, and I don't fancy the time penalty on an Audax of trying to explain to a German police officer that my bike complies with the Vienna convention, thus is legal... even if it doesn't have all the stuff they think it should for German laws...

Yet the GP4000s II comes in a reflex and non reflex version. I'm surprised that Continental being a Germany company don't do reflective side walls on their winter tyre...

J

[mattc]

I'm *fairly* sure I.ve had 4 Seasons with a reflectiveband.  All of Contis tyres seem to come with and without it,  seemingly at random - or perhaps I just don't read the small print closely enough!

Anyway, I'd say spoke reflectors aremore effective if you are worried, and I think there are bigger risks of DNF/delay than very very picky traffic cops - even in Deutschland. Your risk assesment may vary

[dim]

I'm *fairly* sure I.ve had 4 Seasons with a reflectiveband.  All of Contis tyres seem to come with and without it,  seemingly at random - or perhaps I just don't read the small print closely enough!

Anyway, I'd say spoke reflectors aremore effective if you are worried, and I think there are bigger risks of DNF/delay than very very picky traffic cops - even in Deutschland. Your risk assesment may vary

I've had several sets on 4 seasons and non had reflectiveband .... I have read reviews on wiggle saying that the conti reflectiveband is shite and comes off over time

I'd rather get a Knog Blinder which has a very wide throw of light (almost 180 degrees), and which can be directed to shine down so as to give better coverage of the road 30 meters ahead,

it will be very good when you are on an auduax at night (combined with your main light, this will be very good as a fill in light and it does not take much space on your handlebar .... plus it lasts 5 hours between charges (on steady)

my wife has one and if a car approching from the side cannot see her at night, they should not be allowed to drive

[rafletcher]

As Matt says, get some spoke reflectors. I have “spoke sticks” on mine.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I wonder how the German requirement for reflective sidewalls is enforced on velomobiles?