Author Topic: [LEL17] LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.  (Read 23348 times)

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #25 on: 17 July, 2017, 10:54:22 am »
Does this signify sections that are signed ?

I believe that is the intention.

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #26 on: 17 July, 2017, 11:19:03 am »
Could anyone explain why the route Barnard Castle to Middleton (Northbound) is different to the route Middleton to Barnard Castle (Southbound)? I'm sure some thought was put into this, so just wondering.

In 2013 the control was on the top road to Middleton. So it made sense to continue from there, rather than double back. In order to see the castle you have to take the other, more Westerly road. This year the control is before the junction of the two routes. The outward route takes you through the town, and the return takes you past the castle.

The return route is more of a roller-coaster, and the outward climbs steadily to a higher point, which is more exposed. If there is a South Westerly wind, you might get some benefit outward, while the return is more sheltered.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #27 on: 19 July, 2017, 05:32:40 pm »
Apologies if this has been covered in another thread but I notice that when downloading the GPX files (a first for me  :-\) two "alternative" routes are included, from Brampton to Moffat and St Ives to Gt Easton.  I've saved these on my device but haven't worked out how to haven put them into Garmin Connect so that I can view them as maps. 

Can anyone tell me what the main differences are between the official and alternative routes?  As each is longer, I'm assuming that they are a bit flatter or miss out something that tired riders might prefer to avoid (e.g. Cambridge city centre).
Why should anybody steal a watch when they can steal a bicycle?

Phil W

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #28 on: 19 July, 2017, 05:55:11 pm »
Brampton to Moffat alt is the scenic route to the east of the official route. If you like that kind of thing, but it is somewhat potholed , and not recommended officially. Pretty though. The St Ives - Great Easton alt bypasses Crambridge and is closer to the southbound route of 2013.

So your choice as always depending on your mood and the timings.

Graeme

  • @fatherhilarious.blog 🦋
    • Graeme's Blog
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #29 on: 20 July, 2017, 10:24:08 pm »
Could anyone explain why the route Barnard Castle to Middleton (Northbound) is different to the route Middleton to Barnard Castle (Southbound)? I'm sure some thought was put into this, so just wondering.

In 2013 the control was on the top road to Middleton. So it made sense to continue from there, rather than double back. In order to see the castle you have to take the other, more Westerly road. This year the control is before the junction of the two routes. The outward route takes you through the town, and the return takes you past the castle.

The return route is more of a roller-coaster, and the outward climbs steadily to a higher point, which is more exposed. If there is a South Westerly wind, you might get some benefit outward, while the return is more sheltered.

May I also add that the north-bound route from Barney to Middleton-in-Teesdale contains an absolute treat of a view up Teesdale from Folly Top. It is a view which begs to be photographed but unless you're expecting it you'll be too late with the camera because the wide open and well surfaced descent is a hoot to freefall down. For anyone thinking of going the other way - you'll miss one of my favourite views of Teesdale.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #30 on: 20 July, 2017, 10:59:55 pm »
For anyone looking for an LEL routesheet that is designed to fold down to A6 size, see here — http://www.camaudax.uk/rides/lel2017/.  This is a complete rewrite of the routesheet, in my style, for me, to be folded down to A6, because that's how I do it.  If anyone else is in the same dilemma in that the official routesheet is a bit too cumbersome for them then you may find what you're looking for above.

If anyone likes my slightly baroque abbreviations — and there is a full key to my shorthand on the routesheet, twice in fact — but would prefer to use an A5 map case over A6, such as those on Carradice Super C and Ortlieb bar bags, I've also done an A5 version as 2x A6 side-by-side.  Same link above.

And if anyone's looking for precise GPX or TCX tracks of the entire route, not down-sampled at all, but in their original high-res form, I've done a set of those also.  I've also broken out the stage S1 and S8 into all the sub-stages as one-GPX-per-stage, if you like the distance-remaining to be correct on your Garmin.  And all those are available on RideWithGPS, if anyone wants to grab a copy for themselves to play around with. 

UPDATE — as it happens, Danial also posted a link to the originals of the official GPX files here — https://ridewithgps.com/events/39150-london-edinburgh-london-2017 — which are just as good if you want to export your own from RWGPS  :thumbsup:

Obvious disclaimer — none of these have been tested, but they have been carefully checked against the official routesheet and GPXes which HAVE been tested.  But how hard can it be?!
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #31 on: 20 July, 2017, 11:01:53 pm »
Just in case the Humber Bridge is closed to cycle traffic, I have also prepared routesheets and GPS files for diversions between Louth and Pocklington and the reverse.  I think it is UNlikely they will be needed, but it might be worth grabbing the GPX files just in case, since they weigh nothing.  Same link as above — http://www.camaudax.uk/rides/lel2017/#diversion.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #32 on: 20 July, 2017, 11:20:23 pm »
Those are spectacular - exactly what I'm after.

One thing - the time limit is 116h40m. You've got it as 116h20m on the top of every page. I'm expecting to need those minutes!

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #33 on: 21 July, 2017, 12:06:24 am »
Those are spectacular - exactly what I'm after.

One thing - the time limit is 116h40m. You've got it as 116h20m on the top of every page. I'm expecting to need those minutes!

Thanks Graham — I did update it but managed to undo it accidentally.  It will be a nice surprise for anyone working to that time ;)

Edit: I have updated the PDFs with the correct time-allowed (although obviously wrong if you're in the 100-hour groups!).
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #34 on: 21 July, 2017, 11:25:37 am »
The added touristic information make them more interesting

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #35 on: 21 July, 2017, 05:16:00 pm »
IMPORTANT — I did a final, side-by-side, line-by-line check of my routesheet against the official one and, unfortunately, found a couple of "other-right" errors.  I have posted new versions to the page above — I am now VERY confident that my routesheet is at least as accurate as the official one.  All of the specific errors were mitigated by having precise signage given in each instruction, so nobody should get lost because of this.

If you downloaded the routesheet before 4pm today (21 July) then you might want to re-download it.  The new, good version has the date "2017-07-21" in the filename — the erroneous version is 2017-07-18B.

If you've already printed it out then the changes are listed on an addendum page linked from the main page — you can mark the few changes up with a Sharpie on your printout, no probs.

Sorry!  :-[   But all good now  :thumbsup:
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #36 on: 21 July, 2017, 08:59:08 pm »
And if anyone's looking for precise GPX or TCX tracks of the entire route, not down-sampled at all, but in their original high-res form, I've done a set of those also.

Are these significantly different from the files located here: https://londonedinburghlondon.com/route/ ?

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #37 on: 21 July, 2017, 09:01:18 pm »
And if anyone's looking for precise GPX or TCX tracks of the entire route, not down-sampled at all, but in their original high-res form, I've done a set of those also.

Are these significantly different from the files located here: https://londonedinburghlondon.com/route/ ?

They are, in the detail, more precise, because they haven't been "down-sampled". 

These also include cues to tell you which control you're rolling into (useful on day 3+) mostly for Garmin Edge users. 

However, if you're a pink-line follower (eTrex, et al) then either will get you there as good as the others.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #38 on: 21 July, 2017, 09:10:00 pm »
Thank you  :thumbsup:

thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #39 on: 22 July, 2017, 03:34:25 am »
GPX files:
If anyone is looking for GPS files with Cue sheets, I created a RideWithGPS 'event' with these here
https://ridewithgps.com/events/39315-london-edinburgh-london-with-cues

(Zip file of full-res GPXs with cues, excluding alternative options, here).

Provenance: read the Facebook thread for full details, but tl'dr  these were traced by John Meier from Daniel's official GPX files, and then assembled into an event by me. Standard disclaimers apply.


Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #40 on: 22 July, 2017, 06:49:08 am »

They are, in the detail, more precise, because they haven't been "down-sampled". 


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I created the tracks in ridewithgps, then downloaded them from ridewithgps. Did you create yours using different software?

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #41 on: 22 July, 2017, 09:47:41 am »
I've never understood this fascination with tracks that show a greater level of detail. The 500 point limit of my HCx generation Etrexes has never been a handicap in practice
Does the fact that a downsampled track wanders (slightly) away from the road confuse the newer devices?

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #42 on: 22 July, 2017, 09:48:17 am »

They are, in the detail, more precise, because they haven't been "down-sampled". 


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I created the tracks in ridewithgps, then downloaded them from ridewithgps. Did you create yours using different software?

It looks like there has been a node-reduction in the offical GPX files, AFTER they were exported from RWGPS.  This produces small inaccuracies in the GPX — the line "leaves" the road by a few metres every now and again as it carves a straight line where the road bends a bit.  This is what I meant by "in the detail" — for pink-line followers then it will make little-to-no difference; for Garmin Edge users then there will be the occasional false "off-course" warning when using lo-res GPX tracks.  However, the reduced node-count does mean the official GPXes will work on every device, no matter how old/legacy.

I also created mine in RWGPS by following your routesheet, turn-by-turn, while checking it.  These are exactly the same precision as yours, in RWGPS.  However, I provide hi-res GPXes — a version that is NOT down-sampled — as well as very-lo-res GPXes for legacy devices.  And TCXes, which are also hi-res.  They start from exactly the same point in RWGPS, but are processed differently after export.

The problem is in helping riders understand which is the right version for them — there is no easy answer to this, at least the first time they ponder the question.  But those who do know what they want, and do want a hi-res format, can get that from my page directly, or by exporting each individual track from your RWGPS event page themselves without the down-sampling — most riders just want a point-and-click solution, hence I provide the hi-res tracks in a one-shot ZIP file to save them the hundred or so clicks it takes to export all the tracks individually from an event page.

I have mentioned several times that all of the routes available — yours, mine and others — will get you there, and that, except in the detail (precision), all are as good as the others.  I have also clearly stated that yours are the "gold standard"  :thumbsup:

For me, personally, TCX is the format of choice, because I use a Garmin Edge.  TCX supports additional features that are not available in GPX and is probably therefore "slightly better" for Edge users, but that's just me, and it does depend on what each individual rider wants from the track.  No matter, the lo-res GPX will still get users of the latest Garmin Edge device from beginning to end just fine, but without the "detail" and with the occasional false-positive "off-course" warning.

The one other tiny bit of detail that I have added is to route to the bike park at each control — this is from my experience of 2013 for some controls and a leap-of-faith at the new control-locations.  The only control where finding the way in in 2013 was an issue was Brampton on the way north, in the dark — the junction outside the school was unlit and so incredibly hard to see anything on approach.  By the time we came south the following evening, it was lit up like a disco!  ;)
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #43 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:01:50 am »
I've never understood this fascination with tracks that show a greater level of detail. The 500 point limit of my HCx generation Etrexes has never been a handicap in practice
Does the fact that a downsampled track wanders (slightly) away from the road confuse the newer devices?

Yes — Garmin Edge devices beep and show an "Off Course" warning when the line and the road diverge by a few metres — they can even do this on mini-roundabouts, annoyingly.  The greater precision in a hi-res track reduces the number of these false warnings to a tolerable level.

For me, it affects the way I ride someone's route: I always try to ride to the routesheet without triggering an off-course warning because of my own poor-navigation.  Even in this digital age and with my extensive technical background, I do love me a nice piece of battery-free paper  :)  So I do want to have off-course warnings enabled, just in case I make a mistake (that's part of the "game"); but I don't want to have the real warnings swamped by the false-positives.  What I don't do is simply follow a pink line — it is there if I want it, but I mostly keep my eyes on the routesheet and the road.

FWIW, the even-better/bigger TCX format enables me to include cuepoints within the file and these pop-up on Garmin Edge devices — and beep — as you arrive at them.  Most of the time these are trite — 20km to next control, 10km to next control, etc.  But on certain audaxes with lots of info controls in the dark then it is a real, tangible benefit to get a heads-up 500m before and about 10m before the info control — and I'm not the only one who thinks so, given the comments I've received after such an event.

These are small things, but if you've already got the device that supports them then it's nice to be able to use them.  However, you are also correct in that, if all you are doing is following a pink line on the screen then the 500-point track is fine  :thumbsup:
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #44 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:15:24 am »
I've never understood this fascination with tracks that show a greater level of detail. The 500 point limit of my HCx generation Etrexes has never been a handicap in practice
Does the fact that a downsampled track wanders (slightly) away from the road confuse the newer devices?

Yes — Garmin Edge devices beep and show an "Off Course" warning when the line and the road diverge by a few metres — they can even do this on mini-roundabouts, annoyingly.  The greater precision in a hi-res track reduces the number of these false warnings to a tolerable level.

For me, it affects the way I ride someone's route: I always try to ride to the routesheet without triggering an off-course warning because of my own poor-navigation.  Even in this digital age and with my extensive technical background, I do love me a nice bit of battery-free paper  :)  So I do want to have off-course warnings enabled, just in case I make a mistake (that's part of the "game"); but I don't want to have the real warnings swamped by the false-positives.  What I don't do is simply follow a pink line — it is there if I want it, but I mostly keep my eyes on the routesheet and the road.

FWIW, the even-better/bigger TCX format enables me to include cuepoints within the file and these pop-up on Garmin Edge devices as you arrive at them.  Most of the time these are trite — 20km to next control, 10km to next control, etc.  But on certain audaxes with lots of info controls in the dark then it is a real, tangible benefit to get a heads-up 500m before and about 10m before the info control — and I'm not the only one who thinks so, given the comments I've received after such an event.

These are small things, but if you've already got the device that supports them then it's nice to be able to use them.  However, you are also correct in that, if all you are doing is following a pink line on the screen then the 500-point track is fine  :thumbsup:

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm doing a little more than following a line.  I'm still using what used to be referred in these pages as the 'jwo method'.   It's a little more labour-intensive but provides the audible warnings and instructions at each turn. No off-course warnings though.   

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #45 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:22:26 am »
Thanks for the explanation.
I'm doing a little more than following a line.  I'm still using what used to be referred in these pages as the 'jwo method'.   It's a little more labour-intensive but provides the audible warnings and instructions at each turn. No off-course warnings though.   

Every time the discussion comes up, I learn something new about "the other side"   :thumbsup:  I'm not familiar with the "jwo method", but I could not imagine spending all that time and effort adding all those warnings and instructions to the GPS files when they're already in the routesheet, just waiting to be committed to paper — chapeau!
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #46 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:56:02 am »
What's interesting is how riders team up to solve these problems on the road.

I've got two independent GPS devices, usually running route files from two different sources. That's why I got a lot of free towing from a pair of stronger riders who only had one broken GPS between them on a recent audax :-D

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #47 on: 22 July, 2017, 10:58:39 am »
The warnings with the jwo method are automatic - and instructions are only 2 or 3 characters.
Time & effort certainly but not too onerous AND in adding them you get to double-check the routesheet against the map.
Organiser's routesheets and even GPX tracks have been known to contain errors - although in the case of LEL I'm fairly sure they have all been spotted & corrected.

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #48 on: 22 July, 2017, 11:03:32 am »

It looks like there has been a node-reduction in the offical GPX files, AFTER they were exported from RWGPS.

There hasn't. The official files have come straight from ridewithgps, unaltered.

EDIT - it would interesting to see where you've found the line going off route by a few metres, because I've never encountered that when I've ridden with my husband, who uses a Mio to navigate.

Re: LEL Route, GPX, Route Sheets.
« Reply #49 on: 22 July, 2017, 11:04:08 am »
if all you are doing is following a pink line on the screen then the 500-point track is fine  :thumbsup:

A hi-res track makes it a lot easier to follower the pink line through junctions, especially if you have a hi-res device.

Organiser's routesheets and even GPX tracks have been known to contain errors - although in the case of LEL I'm fairly sure they have all been spotted & corrected.

The good thing about GPX tracks is that even if they're "wrong" they will always lead you (eventually) to the next control.