Author Topic: Cross Training: Rowing  (Read 226945 times)

simonp

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #550 on: 24 March, 2011, 09:56:54 am »
500W I tried that once on an exercise bike at the gym once. I did not maintain it for 4 minutes. Maybe a minute.

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #551 on: 24 March, 2011, 12:37:29 pm »
that is a 1:28 split.  :o

You need about 2 x ( Panoramix when he was 30 years old) to make 1 of him! And he weights just 30% more than me.

I have no idea what my 2k time would be today, he is probably worth 2.5 panoramixes now!
Chief cat entertainer.

simonp

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #552 on: 24 March, 2011, 01:05:39 pm »
I averaged 238W for my 5k PB. How many panoramixes?  I'm 39 and I was quite a bit slower at 30.

I think this should be the new SI unit of rowing.

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #553 on: 25 March, 2011, 12:29:45 am »
According to this:

Concept2 Training Guide - Training - Concept2

The Panoramix is (or was) worth about 275W (My PB was 7:05).

I was rowing and my fitness compared to others was not exceptional tbh, there was one or 2 ergo beasts able to pull a 6:30. Typically properly trained men were doing 6:50. They got me from 7:30 to 7:05 in 4 months  :o but I then met the soon to be Mrs P...
Chief cat entertainer.

simonp

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #554 on: 25 March, 2011, 12:44:08 am »
I keep telling myself I should try for a 7:00.  Then I think "I don't want to die!" :)

7:26 is my best time.  I could average 293W for 5 minutes on the bike, in 2009.  So >250W for 7 - 8 minutes seems do-able in principle.

But it'd hurt.

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #555 on: 25 March, 2011, 12:49:01 am »
The theory is simple: "keep the split time below 1:45"

For some reason I would always have a bad patch at some point!
Chief cat entertainer.

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #556 on: 25 March, 2011, 10:35:33 am »
Have a look at the concept ii website. They have technique advice on there. I'd suggest starting with no more than 2km and at a fairly easy pace, and don't be tempted to set the level high. Keep the stroke rate down to about 25spm and concentrate on form.

So I went and started today, using this advice, and did 2015m in 09:40 (average stroke rate of 27spm) - it felt reasonably comfortable so pretty sure I could push it. Having a look at the training programmes on the website now to get myself geared up to regular sessions.

Also took the liberty of signing up to the YACF group on the website. Apologies if this isn't welcome, can quite easily 'de-sign' if necessary!
One Man and LEJOG : End-to-End on Two Wheels in Two Weeks (Buy the book; or Kindle it)

simonp

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #557 on: 25 March, 2011, 12:03:29 pm »
You're more than welcome to join in.

I have been taking it fairly easy and outputting about 160W.  Colleague was at the gym and saw me doing that, and commented that I hardly seemed to be making any effort or breathing particularly.  This is the kind of power I do all day on the bike so it's not surprising really that I can do it comfortably now.

200W for 10,000m is very hard for me though.  I only did that once.

Gus

  • Loosing weight stone by stone
    • We will return
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #558 on: 25 March, 2011, 01:04:26 pm »

200W for 10,000m is very hard for me though.  I only did that once.


 :sick: I would die if I tried that. But I'm improving my fitness on today's 5000 m I finished
the last 2000m in  7.50minutes (217W), that is WAY faster than I thought I could manage and my PB for
that distance.  :-[
But for 10000m I'm not able to get higher than 175W

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #559 on: 25 March, 2011, 10:01:28 pm »

200W for 10,000m is very hard for me though.  I only did that once.


 :sick: I would die if I tried that. But I'm improving my fitness on today's 5000 m I finished
the last 2000m in  7.50minutes (217W), that is WAY faster than I thought I could manage and my PB for
that distance.  :-[
But for 10000m I'm not able to get higher than 175W

It's funny how one gets a second wind for the last section. No need to conserve energy, just go for it and get the pain over asap!

simonp

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #560 on: 25 March, 2011, 10:20:21 pm »

200W for 10,000m is very hard for me though.  I only did that once.


 :sick: I would die if I tried that. But I'm improving my fitness on today's 5000 m I finished
the last 2000m in  7.50minutes (217W), that is WAY faster than I thought I could manage and my PB for
that distance.  :-[
But for 10000m I'm not able to get higher than 175W

Correction.  1:58.4 average pace is 210.9W.

My 5k PB is around 238W; 2k PB 252W.

I think I should be able to do a faster 2k time now.  Motivation may be the issue.  Getting down to 7:00 requires maintaining just over 300W.  I don't think I could do that.


Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #561 on: 26 March, 2011, 08:45:58 am »
I think I should be able to do a faster 2k time now.  Motivation may be the issue.  Getting down to 7:00 requires maintaining just over 300W. 

I would guess that motivation and resistance to pain is probably worth about 15s. To be consistently at your "physiological" max power output requires a great deal of will power IMO.

Most rowing races at amateur level are won or lost when part of the crew looses the will to live! I used to really enjoy my rowing but still not sure why one should enjoy such a masochistic sport.

In some way audaxing is diametrically opposed to rowing. 15 hours very low intensity vs 10 minutes very high intensity.

I tend to climb a bit better than the average audaxer and I suspect that it is a legacy from my rowing time.
Chief cat entertainer.

Gus

  • Loosing weight stone by stone
    • We will return
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #562 on: 27 March, 2011, 01:23:54 pm »

It's funny how one gets a second wind for the last section. No need to conserve energy, just go for it and get the pain over asap!

I have just tried your advice I spend 7 hours doing absolutely nothing at work, I was on Backup if someone overslept or was sick.

so I started with a 5000m warm up on just under 22 minutes and then tried 2000m on full speed.
Result : I lowered my PB with 21 seconds to 7.30,0  or 245,8W average  :D :D

 :thumbsup: THANK YOU  Manotea  :thumbsup:

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #563 on: 27 March, 2011, 09:26:22 pm »

It's funny how one gets a second wind for the last section. No need to conserve energy, just go for it and get the pain over asap!

I have just tried your advice I spend 7 hours doing absolutely nothing at work, I was on Backup if someone overslept or was sick.

so I started with a 5000m warm up on just under 22 minutes and then tried 2000m on full speed.
Result : I lowered my PB with 21 seconds to 7.30,0  or 245,8W average  :D :D

 :thumbsup: THANK YOU  Manotea  :thumbsup:

Well done, Gus.  Do you log your times on the C2 website (logbook)?

I'm going have a proper go at hitting my targets for the ranking distances before the C2 season ends at the end of April.  I'd be quite happy with a 7:30/2k; currently I'm sitting 7:38.

Gus

  • Loosing weight stone by stone
    • We will return
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #564 on: 28 March, 2011, 11:21:04 am »
Well done, Gus.  Do you log your times on the C2 website (logbook)?

I'm going have a proper go at hitting my targets for the ranking distances before the C2 season ends at the end of April.  I'd be quite happy with a 7:30/2k; currently I'm sitting 7:38.

Yes I log all my workouts on the C2 logbook and  I've joined the YACF team for the World Erg too.

Marco Stefano

  • Apply some pressure, you lose some pressure...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #565 on: 28 March, 2011, 05:31:18 pm »
Well done Gus.  :thumbsup:

I think the key is a really good warm-up; with long steady-state efforts (40 mins-plus) I just get into it, but a 2K needs a really serious warm-up. I think your 5k beforehand did just that. 10-stroke race pace bursts (one each minute, then slow & light) also recommended for the last 5 minutes to get really hot & sweaty, & get race face gurning sorted out.

Marco

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #566 on: 30 March, 2011, 11:41:23 am »
Right...have done a few sessions now and have to say I'm enjoying it - always said I wanted to have a gym membership to do bits that I couldn't do 'normally' (like running) and this fits in with that.

Anyway, having now had a look at the Paul's Beginner Training Plan I think I'm going to follow that to give me some structure over the next six-ish months (!!!).

Just one question - I've noticed on there, and the advice here, that I should keep the strokes per minute to c.25. Is the reasoning behind this to ensure correct technique and develop power?
One Man and LEJOG : End-to-End on Two Wheels in Two Weeks (Buy the book; or Kindle it)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #567 on: 31 March, 2011, 11:45:05 pm »
I'm a new rowerConcept2 User... but Ms Manotea the Elder encouraged me to go for a slower stroke rate. As you say it helps focus on technique and power. I also found it helped me relax and tackle longer distances. Reducing the unproductive work element - just moving the body back and forth uses a lot effort - helps keep the CV down. Until you nail the power/technique, going 'faster' means increasing the stroke rate, and you can only keep up 30+ spm for so long until you 'blow up'.

Somebody who knows what they are talking about will be along soon.

JJ

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #568 on: 01 April, 2011, 01:07:13 am »
Here's the thing.  To get a big score on the machine, you just need to keep the wheel spinning.  You get no credit for how many times you thrash up and down the slide.  So the trick is to get as long and powerful an acceleration phase as possible, and leave it spinning as fast as possible.  Then you leave it, and leave it, and leave it, relaxing your muscles and letting the blood flow round them and coiling them back up again ready for the next acceleration phase.

There's detail in there.  How you connect the drive through from your legs to your hands matters, so that you don't lose length from the power cycle.  So does how quickly and smoothly you pick up the drive at the start, and how well you use the minor muscles in your shoulders and lats to get that last little bit, but the crux is there, in the long acceleration.

A half-good analogy is spinning a wheel on an upturned bike, with the flat of your hand.  Lots of little taps won't make it go as quick as a few really long fast ones.

My back's knackered now so I'm not touching rowing, but last year I would do 10K at 21-22 spm, maybe rising to 24 at the end.  I might do 2k nearer 28.  I have history, so I would use a lower rate than a cyclist convert to indoor rowing, but YSWIM.

In a real boat there are other things that come into play.  Not waving all that body mass around lets the shell ride smoothly over the surface, creates less wake and is generally more efficient.  On the other hand the slowdown between strokes is much more non-linear, so you need to maintain a higher stroke rate to catch the boat before it's lost too much speed.

Rowers spend a lot of time rehearsing a perfect stroke at low SPM so that it will hold together and stay smooth at 40 spm, but concept 2 is simpler.

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #569 on: 06 April, 2011, 09:54:45 pm »
I've spent a very enjoyable hour and a half going up and down the river this evening.  A bit windy - with the wind against the stream, causing 4"-high waves - that's practically unheard-of on this river.

Lots of onlookers in the park, the pub garden etc.  Yes I made it look easy.  Because it is. 8)
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #570 on: 06 April, 2011, 10:44:36 pm »
I'm thinking of dropping my gym membership and joining a local rowing club as a 'land' member (for the time being at least). It would probably be cheaper and provide a better training environment. For training purposes all I need is access to Ergs and basic free weights. I do quite fancy learning to scull though, maybe a project for the winter.

The choice offered by the two nearest clubs (just round the corner from the gym as it happens) is a race oriented club and another club with a more recreational basis. I'll have to go along and have a chat and see what's what.

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #571 on: 07 April, 2011, 12:52:11 pm »
I'm thinking of dropping my gym membership and joining a local rowing club as a 'land' member (for the time being at least). It would probably be cheaper and provide a better training environment. For training purposes all I need is access to Ergs and basic free weights. I do quite fancy learning to scull though, maybe a project for the winter.

The choice offered by the two nearest clubs (just round the corner from the gym as it happens) is a race oriented club and another club with a more recreational basis. I'll have to go along and have a chat and see what's what.

Good move but if you want to learn sculling do it in the spring or summer when the water is slower and warmer!
Chief cat entertainer.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #572 on: 07 April, 2011, 03:14:55 pm »
Good point. Both clubs have 'learn to scull' sessions at Easter & August. For this year, the Easter sessions are too soon and I expect to be elsewhere in August, so getting on the water will likely be a next year thing.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #573 on: 11 April, 2011, 05:47:45 pm »
Means nothing but just logged 500,000m, about 100km/month. Starting to feel upper body/absolute strength fading as the cycling km kicks in, a tadge earlier in the year than I expected. It's been a while since I've done any weight work.  I've been gradually losing weight through this period, nothing dramatic, say, ~1kg a month. May just need to eat more!

Re: Cross Training: Rowing
« Reply #574 on: 11 April, 2011, 07:11:32 pm »
I'm thinking of dropping my gym membership and joining a local rowing club as a 'land' member (for the time being at least). It would probably be cheaper and provide a better training environment. For training purposes all I need is access to Ergs and basic free weights. I do quite fancy learning to scull though, maybe a project for the winter.

The choice offered by the two nearest clubs (just round the corner from the gym as it happens) is a race oriented club and another club with a more recreational basis. I'll have to go along and have a chat and see what's what.

careful, sculling is addictive..  even without a 'learn to scull' course they might be able to figure something out for you, specially as you've got the base erg work.