Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?

[mattc]

... Which (IMHO) would actually work out really well on a 400.

Almost worth me riding up to Woodstock-n-back for  <thinks ...>

[Martin]

a quick synopsis of entries so far covering Nov-Mar (and still counting; I have just 8 cards left of the delivery I got this morning; going to have to start doubling the order)

entries 37

100+100 17
100+200 1
150+50   3
200+100 10
200+200 2
200+400 5

only 4 entries have been one-way extensions (2 before and 2 after the event). To clear up a few queries I've had; the start and finish of the calendar event is just a stamp or signature in the boxes; no need to go looking for a nearby receipt.

an awful lot more compared the number of DIY+Cal I polled here last year but all arriving with plenty of time to process  

and Many Thanks to John Ward for sorting out the website side of things.

[Martin]

another thing that has come to light; if you extend an event to a total of 700km or more you benefit from an overall 13.3kph mimimum speed;

the calendar event must still be completed in the normal time frame but it gives you a bit longer to complete the ECE leg.

Yes I've had an entry for a 400+400!

[Chris S]

From re-reading this thread, I get the impression the 14.3km/hr average applies to the whole combined event (ECE + Calendar), but the published Calendar limits (usually 15-30) apply to the Calendar ride.

So, let's say I ride an ECE 200 to a Calendar 400 to make a 600.

The Calendar 400 starts at 6am. But I want a sleep stop between the 200 and 400. For a 400 starting at 6am, I calculate I would (normally) finish this at around 3am the following morning. So now I calculate back 41.9 hours (600km / 14.3) to give me a theoretical 600 (ECE 200) start time. I can ride the first 200 in 10 hours, so I make some time up there - but if I stop for longer, and only get my ECE card stamped at 6am, I'm technically out of time on the ECE 200 portion of the ride.

Is this permitted? Can I "borrow" (or Gamble if you prefer) any time margin made up on the 400 to give a longer stop between the 200 and 400? Or put it another way, is it possible to be out of time on the ECE portion alone?

[αdαmsκι]

Chris, you may find the answer in this thread: ECE times.

[Greenbank]

Chris, you may find the answer in this thread: ECE times.

Indeed, quoth the Martin:-

completing the individual ECE legs at a minimum speed of 14.3kph is not critical; all that is is riding the minimum overall combined distance (which is written on the ECE card irrespective of whichever route you choose) at 14.3kph and arriving at the start and finish of the calendar event at the advertised times.

you may want to allow a bit extra on the way out as this is the only section where you must be at a place by a certain time (plus you may want to avail yourself of any pre-event catering); you should be able to make this up later in the day.

[Chris S]

Thanks chaps - I had completely missed the other thread.

[Martin]

Chris; up it to an ECE 700 and you will get even more sleep time as the overall goes down to 13.3 kph 

BTW the PayPal entry fee is going up to £3, this includes both SAE's to send the card back in the first place and after validation so no need to enclose one.

[tonyh]

Thanks Martin for all the details and your hard work and encouragement!

I'm still not completely clear about the following point (probably my own fault):

My last "DIY Calendar" event, under the old superceded system, had a 48.8 km  (shortest distance) leg to the Calendar start  (8am).
48.8km at 14.3 km/hour is 3 hours 24 mins, so I my start time was 04.36 even if I actually started riding later than that. If I started 20 minutes later, I'd lost those 20 minutes.

But now:

Quote from Martin, " ECE times" thread, #6 on February 16 2010:

"all that matters from an ECE POV is completing the overall distance within the maximum time"

I hope this really does mean, in the example above, that I can start at say 05.00, with the overall timing being from 05.00, not 04.36.

(always providing I can reach the calendar controls within the right times of course)

(and yes, it may well turn out not to make any difference to the outcome; but for me at least it does make a significant difference to how "relaxed" the ride can feel)

Sorry to persist about this, thanks Martin, I hope it makes sense, and a one-word answer is plenty!

[αdαmsκι]

But now:

Quote from Martin, " ECE times" thread, #6 on February 16 2010:

"all that matters from an ECE POV is completing the overall distance within the maximum time"

I hope this really does mean, in the example above, that I can start at say 05.00, with the overall timing being from 05.00, not 04.36.

Yip, you start when you want to start. I turned the Rutland & Beyond 102 into a 202 km ride by riding to the start and back. The calendar event started at 08h30, so I set off from home at 06h00, picking up at ATM stamp to prove this was the case. This gave me 2½ hours to do the 50 km and gave me some faff time. Offically, riding at 14.3 kph gave me 3½ hours to ride the 50 km, but starting at 05h00 would have been silly.

Thanks Martin for all the details and your hard work and encouragement!

I'm still not completely clear about the following point (probably my own fault):

My last "DIY Calendar" event, under the old superceded system, had a 48.8 km  (shortest distance) leg to the Calendar start  (8am).

You'll need to add a few kms to that distance because ECE legs have to be above a set distance. With my example of the Rutland & Beyond 102, I had to ensure my ECE leg was 100 km (total distance 202 km), rather than 98 km (total distance 200 km).

[Greenbank]

I'm still not completely clear about the following point (probably my own fault):

My last "DIY Calendar" event, under the old superceded system, had a 48.8 km  (shortest distance) leg to the Calendar start  (8am).
48.8km at 14.3 km/hour is 3 hours 24 mins, so I my start time was 04.36 even if I actually started riding later than that. If I started 20 minutes later, I'd lost those 20 minutes.

...

I hope this really does mean, in the example above, that I can start at say 05.00, with the overall timing being from 05.00, not 04.36.

ECE leg distance aside (see adamski's post).

You could have started at 05.00 with the old system anyway (I certainly did several times, the ride started when I got my first receipt). But with the old system you weren't allowed to start any earlier than 04.36 as you'd be out of time on the DIY by the start of the Calendar event.

Martin has relaxed this and you can now start earlier than 04.36 (if you want, I can't see why) to give yourself more time for an early leg in the dark. Your finish time just moves the corresponding amount earlier as you're borrowing time from later in the ride.

[Chris S]

Martin has relaxed this and you can now start earlier than 04.36 (if you want, I can't see why) to give yourself more time for an early leg in the dark. Your finish time just moves the corresponding amount earlier as you're borrowing time from later in the ride.

And this is what answered my question - what I wanted to do was open up as big a gap as possible between the end of the ECE outward segment, and the start of the calendar ride, to make a decent length sleep stop. Looks like it would work - though I'd probably be worrying slightly throughout the next day's 400 whether I'd gambled too much time, and might end up chasing a time limit.

[Greenbank]

Aha, yes, I can see why it would be useful to create a sleep stop. I don't think I'd like the added pressure of having to finish the other ride faster though, especially if it's already BRM (I don't have a great track record of finishing 300/400/600km rides within BRM time, actually it's not that bad, just 48 minutes over on the BCM and I'd forgotten that the Elenith is always BRM).

[mattc]

Yebbut the BRM is "faster" than the ECE, so over 600km that opens up 2 hours(?) you can use for sleep.

I think you have to finish the calendar event in it's own time limits, so in Chris' example you would lose the spare time anyway! It made sense to me when I read it, anyway ... (although I too think he should look at making it a 700).

[Chris S]

I think you have to finish the calendar event in it's own time limits, so in Chris' example you would lose the spare time anyway! It made sense to me when I read it, anyway ... (although I too think he should look at making it a 700).

Don't think I wasn't tempted by the idea.

700km at 13.3 gives you just over 52.5 hours. Even if I were to target finishing the 400 calendar event on its limit (6am I'm assuming), I could start the outward ECE 300 at 2am two days previous (-52 hours), ride at my usual 300km pace, say 15 hours, so finish that at 17:00 and have 13 hours spare before the next day's 400. That would feel like two rides - not one!

Edited to correct primary school arithmetic 

[MSeries]

I think you have to finish the calendar event in it's own time limits, so in Chris' example you would lose the spare time anyway! It made sense to me when I read it, anyway ... (although I too think he should look at making it a 700).

Don't think I wasn't tempted by the idea.

700km at 13.3 gives you just over 52.5 hours. Even if I were to target finishing the 400 calendar event on its limit (6am I'm assuming), I could start the outward ECE 300 at 2am two days previous (-52 hours), ride at my usual 300km pace, say 15 hours, so finish that at 19:00 and have 11 hours spare before the next day's 400. That would feel like two rides - not one!

all sounds so easy doesn't it.

[Chris S]

all sounds so easy doesn't it.

Indeed - and that's what makes it dangerous... I might just be suckered into doing it.

[mattc]

For a BRM400, start 6am => finish 9am, I think.

So you could start your 700 at 5am, having had a decent night's sleep.

(I found riding a 100+400 tough - I was desperate for sleep when night fell on the calendar event, and the sleep I got at the Z stop was nowhere near what my body needed, as I didn't have enough time in hand. I finished, but it was a tough (2nd) night ... )

[Martin]

I hope I'm not impinging on any cardinal rules of Audax here but AIUI the main reason intermediate control times on a calendar ride have to be respected is because of either helpers or cafes etc having been told control times in advance and thus it's unreasonable to expect them to be there (or ready to receive hordes of cyclists in the case of a cafe) outside of this.

With an ECE provided you can find intermediate controls open at any time in the ECE leg it doesn't matter to me as long as you arrive and depart the calendar event at the specified time (and remember the closing time is based on eg 15kph not the 14.3 of the total ECE)

I know PBP (and maybe all BRM's) disqualify you if you take too long between controls but to me the whole idea of Audax has been to take as long as you like between sections as all that counts is completing the total distance within time. This is certainly how I've managed to build up enough of a buffer to get some sleep on a 600 (although I've still managed to be within control times give or take a couple of minutes)

[Chris S]

For a BRM400, start 6am => finish 9am, I think.

Doh! You're right - it's 27 hours. For some reason, I had 24 hours in my head.

[Greenbank]

I know PBP (and maybe all BRM's) disqualify you if you take too long between controls but to me the whole idea of Audax has been to take as long as you like between sections as all that counts is completing the total distance within time. This is certainly how I've managed to build up enough of a buffer to get some sleep on a 600 (although I've still managed to be within control times give or take a couple of minutes)

And unless you can accelerate to 14.3kph instantly (or cheat by starting early) you're technically out of time within the first few seconds of a ride anyway. Especially if you don't start right on the dot.

I agree that common sense should prevail.

[tonyh]

Thanks all - excellent answers and further insights!

(BCM as a 700 from home?? Or just stay with the decorating AT home?)

[MSeries]

I know PBP (and maybe all BRM's) disqualify you if you take too long between controls but to me the whole idea of Audax has been to take as long as you like between sections as all that counts is completing the total distance within time. This is certainly how I've managed to build up enough of a buffer to get some sleep on a 600 (although I've still managed to be within control times give or take a couple of minutes)

And unless you can accelerate to 14.3kph instantly (or cheat by starting early) you're technically out of time within the first few seconds of a ride anyway. Especially if you don't start right on the dot.

You can do a rolling start and cross the line marking the start of the first kilometre at 14.3km/h or faster.  It's rarely clear where the actual start line of an event is anyway.

[Greenbank]

(BCM as a 700 from home?? Or just stay with the decorating AT home?)

That's not as insane as it sounds, my thinking is...

BCM is Saturday 6am start, 10pm finish on Sunday.

Chepstow is almost perfectly 200km from SW15.

A 800 gives me just over 60 hours at 13.3kph.

60 hours back from 10pm Sunday is 10am Friday.

Fri 10am: start a 200km ride from home to Severn View Services Travelodge and a nice night's sleep.
Sat 5am: up and over the bridge for the 6am start of the BCM
Sun 10pm: finish of BCM, ride back to Travelodge for another night's sleep and back down to Bristol for an early train in to work Monday morning.

It doesn't quite work as well for a 1000. I'd need to start a 200 at midday on Friday and finish by 3pm on the Monday. I don't like the idea of getting up at 3am after finishing the BCM to ride home unless I finished much earlier than 10pm.

Maybe one year...

[Martin]

However;

ECE's (like all permanents) are more flexible in their times etc. than calendar events but there is still a requirement to ride at a reasonable pace and maintain intake of food and drink etc, so controls at a maximum spacing of 70km should be respected, this should still give you sufficient time for a Z stop either before or after the calendar event. What you should not do is have an extra long sleep stop and then attempt to finish the ride by going at 30kph (or vice versa)

but there is nothing specifically in the rules about perm controls having set opening and closing times

5.7 Speeds: events shall be run within maximum and minimum overall speeds and riders checked through a series of controls which have predetermined opening and closing times and which must be published in the brevet card for calendared events