Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 12 October, 2015, 08:31:03 pm
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An odd complaint from a pedestrian tonight. OK, a static light can be dazzling (Rosie was holding my bike up while I turned on Emma's front light) but surely headlights are to be expected when you're walking next to a road (we were pulled into the side)? And that light is about 3W while a car is 110W on dipped. I think he just hates cyclists. I didn't dignify it with a response.
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I've had "Your light is too bright!" from a pedestrian in a supermarket car park. In response to an Ixon IQ, when I stopped to let them cross. Presumably the headlights of the car that had stopped in the other direction (and the dozens of other lit cars in the vicinity) were just fine.
Perhaps it was meant as a comment on emitter area or colour temperature, that they lacked the language for, but still...
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poorly aimed lights totally piss me off, I have an astigmatism and bright LEDs play havoc with it.
I regularly see a group of MTBers I'd gladly shove their exposures up their arses - CNUts, bright lights are great in the right places.
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Quite.
Lights that point into eyes are crap.
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Quite.
Lights that point into eyes are crap.
Well yes, but when you get the same complaints about lights that specifically don't point into eyes (see above), you start to wonder what's going on.
It makes some sense when you're on a cyclepath and someone with a pound-shop blinky complains about your Cyo - if they're relying on night vision, then *any* competent light is going to be too bright, no matter where it's pointed. But when you're singled out in an environment full of car headlights, it's hard not to see it as cyclophobia.
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Having just driven on the continent with bog standard headlamps and forgetting (then not being arsed) to put the deflectors on I realised that it's not about brightness or pointing, it is about beam shape. You can be as bright as you like if you don't point into people's eyes.
If someone says it is pointing into their eyes it probably is. Regardless of how right-on you think you are.
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Having just driven on the content with bog standard headlamps and forgetting (then not being arsed) to put the deflectors on I realised that it's not about brightness or pointing, it is about beam shape. You can be as bright as you like if you don't point into people's eyes.
If someone says it is pointing into their eyes it probably is. Regardless of how right-on you think you are.
It's not about being right-on (whatever that actually is, some euphemism for politeness, I think) it's about engineering. I *have* had complaints from a correctly-aligned IQ beam with the horizontal cutoff[1] well below the eye line of the complainer[2]. I'm not talking about conical MTB lights, here.
I conclude that the spill above the horizontal is therefore still bright enough to be offensive to at least some minority of people. Possibly because it's very bright. Possibly because the lens is a relatively small area (compared to a car headlamp) so a small amount of light appears more intense. Possibly because the colour temperature is higher. Possibly because it's clearly a much better light than the complainer's blinky. Possibly because I'm a Bloody Cyclist. Possibly for some other reason.
Either that, or they're trolling.
I really don't want to blind people. IQ optics aimed horizontally from fork crown height or lower seem to be the best available option for not doing this, unless you care to recommend something better?
[1] Just like you get from your dipped beam after fitting those deflectors.
[2] Easily confirmed by their brightly lit legs.
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Probably point source size is a key factor.
Anyway, I've seen loads more really badly pointed bike lights in the last few years then ever before.
It is probably more about unthinking people than light design.
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Point source is definitely a factor. I sometimes find car LED indicators and DRLs dazzling, probably because they're a series of very bright but small points, in a way that old filaments aren't.
As to fork crown height being best, you wouldn't say that if you were a toddler.
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If someone says it is pointing into their eyes it probably is. Regardless of how right-on you think you are.
Exactly. Too bright = unable to tell vehicle/bike location, speed or even if they are moving.
this applies to shitty LED sidelights on cars just as much as it does to bikes.
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Of course, maybe they've got incipient cataracts and don't know it. Before I had my eyes done I thought every approaching vehicle needed its lights adjusted.
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Of course, maybe they've got incipient cataracts and don't know it. Before I had my eyes done I thought every approaching vehicle needed its lights adjusted.
You do highlight a very important point.
Anyone who finds headlights or DRL overly dazzling should also think about having an eye test just to rule out any physical issues.
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You do highlight a very important point.
Anyone who finds headlights or DRL overly dazzling should also think about having an eye test just to rule out any physical issues.
Also, if you wear glasses, that anti-reflective coating is well worth it. Without it, nocturnal cityscapes become a mess of glare, even without obnoxious vehicle lights.
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Of course, maybe they've got incipient cataracts and don't know it. Before I had my eyes done I thought every approaching vehicle needed its lights adjusted.
You do highlight a very important point.
Anyone who finds headlights or DRL overly dazzling should also think about having an eye test just to rule out any physical issues.
I wouldn't have found out I have pigment dispersion syndrome if I hadn't mentioned to my optician I get terrible starbursts and halos.
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There is an odd tendency that we (humans) have to stare at a light source and be dazzled, rather than look elsewhere - like straight ahead - and not be. I've often been driving in cars where my passenger has complained about being dazzled, but I haven't been. Frequently, if you direct your vision to the nearside kerb you continue to be able to see but not be dazzled. Maybe some of that going on here ^^^
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There is that. I've had nasty moments on Sat/Sun Audaxes when punters driving home from clubs have put their lights onto full beam just to see what this curious object is in the opposite lane. For a dark-adapted eye in pitch-black countryside, the only reference point that remains is the oncoming light. Ouch.
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There is an odd tendency that we (humans) have to stare at a light source and be dazzled, rather than look elsewhere - like straight ahead - and not be. I've often been driving in cars where my passenger has complained about being dazzled, but I haven't been. Frequently, if you direct your vision to the nearside kerb you continue to be able to see but not be dazzled. Maybe some of that going on here ^^^
Agreed. As a pedestrian or passenger, there's little to stop you staring directly at the light. Vehicle operators might do so instinctively, but will look away sooner in order to check where they're going.
My preferred approach for dealing with dazzling lights, if I can't get them out of my sight-line by head movement (peaked cap, ducking away from the reflection in my mirror, tactical use of A-pillar, etc) is to close one eye. That way I have a fully operational retina available as soon as it has passed.
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There is that. I've had nasty moments on Sat/Sun Audaxes when punters driving home from clubs have put their lights onto full beam just to see what this curious object is in the opposite lane. For a dark-adapted eye in pitch-black countryside, the only reference point that remains is the oncoming light. Ouch.
Riders of tadpole recumbent trikes suffer from this chronically, both by being a particularly curious object, and by having their eyes at car headlamp height.
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height. As it gets darker in the evenings now I am seeing some really silly lighting weaponry coming out on the commute. I suspect it is a power thing.
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height.
This is exactly what seems to be happening. I think those who do so are naively thinking that they are assuring that they will be seen without realising the effect
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height.
This is exactly what seems to be happening. I think those who do so are naively thinking that they are assuring that they will be seen without realising the effect
I am entirely unconvinced that the word "thinking" has any place in your second sentence, or any place in their thoughts.
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height. As it gets darker in the evenings now I am seeing some really silly lighting weaponry coming out on the commute. I suspect it is a power thing.
It's not just a power thing. The majority of lights don't even try to conform to European standards, presumably because they're aimed at American markets, or perhaps marketed by multinationals who have found out that they don't need to comply with local laws. I find these lights with conical beams a right pita when commuting in the lanes.
OTOH, a few watts of bike front light vs 110w of car headlights... In urban traffic it's quite hard to be conspicuous against the usual level of light pollution. I reckon a headtorch is a better solution, since it's above the level of car lights, more obvious and can be pointed at potentially threatening drivers.
Nevertheless I'm unconvinced that the misalignment of bright lights is due to anything more than incompetence.
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It's not just a power thing. The majority of lights don't even try to conform to European standards, presumably because they're aimed at American markets, or perhaps marketed by multinationals who have found out that they don't need to comply with local laws. I find these lights with conical beams a right pita when commuting in the lanes..
British standards for cycle lights fell into disrepute long ago for good reasons (e.g. there was a time when there was hardly a rear light in production anywhere in the world which was legal in this country, & those few were conspicuously inferior to illegal ones in visibility & reliability, all due to a very stupid standard which was legally enforceable but unenforced by police who recognised its stupidity - if they knew about it at all), & German standards completely failed to address off-road cycling. I think traditional bike light manufacturers also became rather complacent. MTB lights became where development took place, & shot ahead in everything except beam shape, & road cyclists who saw how much brighter they were than the feeble old road bike lights couldn't resist - & beam shape was one of the collateral losses.
It's a bit of a mess.
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^^^ Same here. Nowadays you can have virtually anything as long as one front light & one rear light fit the norms and don't dazzle. The norms include not blinking.
Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if the strobe setting on some lights, particularly the very bright ones, could trigger epileptic fits in the susceptible.
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Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if the strobe setting on some lights, particularly the very bright ones, could trigger epileptic fits in the susceptible.
Have there been any recorded incidents of this? I suppose those people who 'may' be affected should stay indoors,
in case an emergency vehicles goes past them.
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I know an experienced AUK who is susceptible to flashing lights. Emergency vehicles generally aren't in your field of view for minutes at a time.
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height.
This is exactly what seems to be happening. I think those who do so are naively thinking that they are assuring that they will be seen without realising the effect
I am entirely unconvinced that the word "thinking" has any place in your second sentence, or any place in their thoughts.
I disagree. We're continually told the value of conspicuity, hi-visibility, be seen be safe. Some people are reacting to that.
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I think there is also a thing going on with people buying really bright cycle lights and then actually sitting them to shine at driver eye height.
This is exactly what seems to be happening. I think those who do so are naively thinking that they are assuring that they will be seen without realising the effect
I am entirely unconvinced that the word "thinking" has any place in your second sentence, or any place in their thoughts.
I disagree. We're continually told the value of conspicuity, hi-visibility, be seen be safe. Some people are reacting to that.
Reacting <> thinking though.
Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if the strobe setting on some lights, particularly the very bright ones, could trigger epileptic fits in the susceptible.
Have there been any recorded incidents of this? I suppose those people who 'may' be affected should stay indoors,
in case an emergency vehicles goes past them.
Since my head injury I appreciate the problem exists. Not only do I find flashing lights 'difficult', I find it quite hard to drive through some tunnels where the wall lighting is at eye level and also found it hard to cycle over streets with patterns in the road surface. Large empty paved areas where the surface is unbroken and I have to try to ignore the lines if the sun shines across them.
Altho' on UK roads I use my dynamo for a DRL, I think excessive lighting is counterproductive as well as unsociable, particularly to oncoming cyclists on cycle paths. I've noticed that when boarding the channel tunnel it is good practice to switch off lights otherwise the boarding staff are continually faced with bright lights approaching them.
If anyone tried to make me stay indoors they would have to face the consequences!
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Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if the strobe setting on some lights, particularly the very bright ones, could trigger epileptic fits in the susceptible.
Have there been any recorded incidents of this? I suppose those people who 'may' be affected should stay indoors,
in case an emergency vehicles goes past them.
The strobe frequency on the Cree light I have is higher than that of the usual blue flasher - I'd put it at about 3 Hz. If I close my eyes and shine it on my eyelids I can see some very pretty tiled patterns that appear to move. According to the lit., if I can get it up to ~12 Hz the fireworks should be really great - interference with the scanning cycle of the visual cortex.
Folk who never knew they were epileptic can have their first fit triggered when driving along our straight poplar-lined roads at sunset. This happened to a few British soldiers when they came over the France in WW2. In one incident an officer nearly strangled his driver.
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Could be 4, I have no way of measuring it.
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Yes sorry - my comment removed after I checked my facts! - the legal frequency is in the range 1 to 4 Hz
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A guy in a van once stopped me in a lane early evening to say that my lights were "too bright and shining in his eyes"
The light in question was a B&M Cyo 60 lux version so it was reasonably bright but not as bright as a dipped headlight. Also B&M lights tend to try and put all the light on the road instead of up in the trees or the eyes of car drivers. After a brief exchange of views we went on our way
Afterwards, I realized that on that lane there is a very slight slope so where I was coming from was downhill (slightly) from the van. So this would raise the angle of the beam a small amount. Add this to the van driver being a dick and that's the situation explained
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Could be 4, I have no way of measuring it.
Strike that: yes I have. My wee Nikon V1 will take a 5-second video at 40 frames/sec, then it stops. I just took such a video: in the space of 5 seconds the lamp flashed 51 times, which puts it at 10.2 Hz. I suspect it's exactly 10 since the light was on at both start and finish. So much for my "3 per second" estimate, but possibly interference with the eye's refresh rate intervenes there, I don't know enough about it to say. 10 Hz is very close to the alpha rhythm, which explains my pretty patterns.
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I know an experienced AUK who is susceptible to flashing lights.
If the rider in question is experienced, he/she will know that flashing lights will (almost certainly) be used by other cylists,
so he/she should be experienced enough to avoid group rides then. Just sayin'.
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I believe the correct response to that post involves sex and travel.
You asked if anybody was actually adversely affected by flashing lights. The answer is yes. He deliberately doesn't draft folk with troublesome flashing lights but occasionally folk overtake and then slow down. Personally, I am happy to tell the overly-flashy to run on steady when in a group, which is the best option.
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I believe the correct response to that post involves sex and travel.
I'm sure you're very familiar with that.
If someone is in a group where a flashing light is annoying them, and the person with the flashing light won't
change it to steady, then it's better to leave the group and carry on alone, or join another group where there
isn't a light that is annoying.
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Please continue to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
The ideal solution is for riders in groups (do whatever you like when riding solo) to run steady lights.
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I believe the correct response to that post involves sex and travel.
I'm sure you're very familiar with that.
If someone is in a group where a flashing light is annoying them, and the person with the flashing light won't
change it to steady insists on continuing to be an anti-social wanker, then it's better to leave the group and carry on alone, or join another group where there isn't a lightdickhead that is annoying.
FTFY
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On the way home earlier (not dark) saw someone with MTB on a dual-use path, flashing what seemed to be one of those ~5000 lumen facemelta front lights. :o Not sure any oncoming peds/cyclists/motorists would being enjoying the experience...
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On the way home earlier (not dark) saw someone with MTB on a dual-use path, flashing what seemed to be one of those ~5000 lumen facemelta front lights. :o Not sure any oncoming peds/cyclists/motorists would being enjoying the experience...
Indeed - there's a subsection of folk who can't get their heads round the difference between 'seeing' and 'being seen'
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Riding through the longest of Bath's 'Two Tunnels' I encountered a large party of children on bicycles escorted by adults on some sort of holiday activity jaunt. This being the winter hols and not long after Xmas everybody had decided this was the ideal time to try out their new bicycle lights. As no one was much older than ten, these were pointing in every possible direction except backwards, and as a recumbent rider I was getting a large proportion of them in the face. In order to continue in a straight line, I shielded my eyes with a hand, palm outwards. As I passed the two adults at the back of the group I heard the following exchange: "Why has he got his hand over his face like that?" "Probably shy poor dear."
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Riding through the longest of Bath's 'Two Tunnels' I encountered a large party of children on bicycles escorted by adults on some sort of holiday activity jaunt. This being the winter hols and not long after Xmas everybody had decided this was the ideal time to try out their new bicycle lights. As no one was much older than ten, these were pointing in every possible direction except backwards, and as a recumbent rider I was getting a large proportion of them in the face. In order to continue in a straight line, I shielded my eyes with a hand, palm outwards. As I passed the two adults at the back of the group I heard the following exchange: "Why has he got his hand over his face like that?" "Probably shy poor dear."
;D
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I once found myself riding with my hands over the mirrors of my Trice while being followed in the closing overs of a 200 by Manotea otp and his Solidlight. Then the road went upwards and he rode serenely off into the distance.
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<snip of fun stuff>
If someone is in a group where a flashing light is annoying them, and the person with the flashing light won't
change it to steady, then it's better to leave the group and carry on alone, or join another group where there
isn't a light that is annoying.
If you know your rear light is causing annoyance, there is a simple compromise to keep everyone happy:
ride at the back.
As you chose your light for your own safety, you will get maximum benefit if there are no other riders behind you.
:)
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Then there's the silly bugger who puts a couple of Decathlon's 8€ bugeyed elastic efforts on his saddlebag so that they point straight into your eyes, bounce up & down and twist the eyes out of your head.
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<snip of fun stuff>
If someone is in a group where a flashing light is annoying them, and the person with the flashing light won't
change it to steady, then it's better to leave the group and carry on alone, or join another group where there
isn't a light that is annoying.
If you know your rear light is causing annoyance, there is a simple compromise to keep everyone happy:
ride at the back.
As you chose your light for your own safety, you will get maximum benefit if there are no other riders behind you.
:)
Last group ride I did I got ridden into twice by following riders, once when a tractor made us all stop and then when someone had the brass neck to want to cross the road on a pedestrian crossing. It's definitely safer at the back.
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The issue seems to be that lights are marketed on the "more lumens the better"
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Can never forget that a lumen is also the tunnel from one end of the gut to the other. 5000 lumens is a load of tripe.
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The issue seems to be that lights are marketed on the "more lumens the better"
Like bike weight, this suffers from over-emphasis due to being easy to measure infer from the LED datasheet. In practical terms it tells you nothing about how much light goes where.
The StVZO-compliant lights that specify their output in Lux are somewhat better, in that that does at least tell you how brightly the road will be lit. It's still hard to quantify beam shape, and how the human eye reacts to it (for example, a 40Lux Cyo R illuminates the road better from a high angle than a 60 Lux Cyo, because the beam has less of a hot spot - and both lamps output exactly the same number of lumens).
But that's just about lights for seeing with. About the only useful quantitative measure of be-seen lighting that you tend to see is beam angle, which says nothing about the point source effect.
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Most nocturnal mammals and owls will stand a better chance of getting clear if you dip your lights. ... If you come across an animal in the road at night, slow down and dim your headlights as much as safety will allow until it has escaped.
The Roadside Wildlife Book, Richard Mabey
(Also has interesting things about why badgers are especially liable to road deaths; their instinct is to turn and face the danger head on to fight it off. "Almost all badgers found dead on the road have been struck in the head or neck.")
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Also has interesting things about why badgers are especially liable to road deaths; their instinct is to turn and face the danger head on to fight it off. "Almost all badgers found dead on the road have been struck in the head or neck."
Interesting. Though I always thought the prevalence of dead badgers was more a case of them smelling so bad that nothing wants to eat them. :)
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Surely they're smelly cos they're being eaten by bacteria... Anyway, next dead badger I see I'm gonna check it's head and neck. Maybe. It certainly seems to make sense that fighty badgers would react in this way and that could account for their being far more common than roadkill foxes, for example.
Back to headlights, I remember that in certain Indian forests it's illegal to use main beam so as not to dazzle (and therefore hit) tigers.
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Surely they're smelly cos they're being eaten by bacteria... Anyway, next dead badger I see I'm gonna check it's head and neck. Maybe. It certainly seems to make sense that fighty badgers would react in this way and that could account for their being far more common than roadkill foxes, for example.
Back to headlights, I remember that in certain Indian forests it's illegal to use main beam so as not to dazzle (and therefore hit) tigers.
Tygers should easy to see. Just ask William Blake.
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Obviously badgers should be subject to a mandatory helmet law :demon:
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Obviously badgers should be subject to a mandatory helmet law :demon:
And gloves.
(http://inrng.com/medias/images/hinaultparisnice.jpg)
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It's not bike lights, it's that stupid jogger with hi retina-searing headtorch. I think he got it for Xmuss last year cos he started using it in January. It's obviously dark enough in the mornings for him to start using it again. Every weekday morning he follows the same route at the same time - under streetlights all the way. Why the <whatever> does he need a headtorch which, when switched on, causes people on Proxima Centauri to point to the heavens and say "Look. A new star has appeared".
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A guy in a van once stopped me in a lane early evening to say that my lights were "too bright and shining in his eyes"
The light in question was a B&M Cyo 60 lux version so it was reasonably bright but not as bright as a dipped headlight. Also B&M lights tend to try and put all the light on the road instead of up in the trees or the eyes of car drivers. After a brief exchange of views we went on our way
Afterwards, I realized that on that lane there is a very slight slope so where I was coming from was downhill (slightly) from the van. So this would raise the angle of the beam a small amount. Add this to the van driver being a dick and that's the situation explained
That is interesting as I get that with my car lights, my car has self levellers and there is a railway bridge near home where if I meet traffic coming the other way quite often they think I have my lights on main beam as they are lower than me therefore getting an eye full of dipped beam.
B&M lights (the ones I have) have excellent beams which do indeed have a cut off to stop dazzling.