Author Topic: Base training  (Read 250257 times)

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #175 on: 29 March, 2016, 10:15:33 pm »
Unless untrained!

Edit: my peak fat burning % was only 25% in Feb last year.  HFLC advocates have cited such poor results as requiring a high fat diet to rectify.

However I took it to mean I needed to train more and smarter. Last year's solution was high volume low intensity. It got me to 55% fat burning in 2 months. And to 240W FTP in that time.

This year I've changed tack and done less volume with more intensity. My FTP improvement is not a surprise though it's more than I'd hoped for. The fat burning being better is a surprise. However the difference between trained and untrained endurance athletes is mostly increased fat burning capacity.

Re: Base training
« Reply #176 on: 30 March, 2016, 01:01:44 pm »
The differences between untrained and trained endurance athletes are :-
a/ The trained athlete has a higher VO2 uptake value.
b/ The trained athlete has developed a more extensive vascular system.
c/ The trained athlete has developed the slow twitch fibres in preference to the fast twitch fibres.

( An untrained person has enough fast twitch fibres to phosphocreatine tear the arm off someone trying to kidnap their baby. )

I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?

Pedal Castro

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Re: Base training
« Reply #177 on: 30 March, 2016, 01:23:27 pm »
I would like to know the determination test techniques to assess fat burning percentages. Is it by blood sampling?

The only way I know is to measure the respiratory exchange ratio, I.e. compare the amount of oxygen used to CO2 produced, quite easily done during a VO2max test.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #178 on: 30 March, 2016, 01:25:45 pm »
Respiratory Quotient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

The ratio of CO2 exhaled to oxygen inhaled varies according to the fat/carbohydrate mix.

Carbohydrate molecules have a higher oxygen content, and thus require less oxygen to metabolise, hence proportionally more CO2 is exhaled. Functional threshold was also estimated from this quotient (once RQ raised to 1.0, that was threshold). RQ can go above 1.0 when above threshold, AIUI.

What the testing I've done showed was that absolute rates of fat burning are substantially higher now than a year ago, right across the range of intensities below threshold. In absolute terms, in Feb 2015 at 140W, I was under 3kcal/min of fat, with around 9kcal/min total energy, so I had to find 6kcal/min of carbohydrate. That's 90g of carbohydrate per hour, which is more than can typically be ingested. Hence, it's unsustainable.

Now, according to the latest test, the ratios are reversed; I've not yet received the detailed numbers, but from what I saw, I'm burning over 6kcal/min of fat, and 3kcal/min of carboydrate, at that intensity. That is very sustainable, only requiring 45g/hour of carbohydrate, which is well within typical absorption limits.



Re: Base training
« Reply #179 on: 31 March, 2016, 07:09:31 am »
How much of the oxygen content of CHO and inhaled O2 goes to the manufacture of water?

What is described is a ‘quick’ method of assessing fat vs carb usage during exercise. The REAL method is to ride regularly for some months, recording how much carbs one needs to ingest, fat % lost and how one feels after one’s regular 100 mile training route.

After several months, not only will the person know how much carb to ingest before the event, how much fat% they are predicted to lose; but also how well they climb hills, cruise and sprint.

In addition, lots of beautiful countryside can be seen during the ‘base training’.

zigzag

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Re: Base training
« Reply #180 on: 01 April, 2016, 11:41:51 am »
started a gym membership today, going to use their wattbikes to track progress during the next few months as well as be doing spinning classes couple of times a week. with commuting and audaxing added to that it should get me in shape for the 24hr.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #181 on: 12 April, 2016, 10:39:17 pm »
Feeling very fatigued after VoTR and Yr Elenydd on consecutive weekends.

But if I don't have a half decent base now, I never will. Compared to 3rd March, on the same work-out, my power is +7W and my average HR -7bpm, with a very much flatter heart rate curve. In fact my HR barely responded to the mild variation in intensity in the workout.

This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Chris S

Re: Base training
« Reply #182 on: 13 April, 2016, 09:54:14 am »
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling

zigzag

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Re: Base training
« Reply #183 on: 18 April, 2016, 12:20:23 pm »
i did the mmp test on a wattbike yesterday and it indicates the ftp of 308w (and 4.6w/kg). i will go an reassess this by doing a 20min test at 325w and see if i can sustain it. oh, the pain!..

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #184 on: 18 April, 2016, 12:27:00 pm »
These numbers make more sense!

jiberjaber

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Re: Base training
« Reply #185 on: 18 April, 2016, 01:18:52 pm »
This week will only be light training to clear the fatigue whilst maintaining the aerobic conditioning and then pick it up once I feel fresh again.

Measure your aerobic decoupling factor. Testing it is a nice easy workout, and it'll give more feedback on your aerobic fitness:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling

I noticed that this is a metric on GC when I tried it at the weekend  :thumbsup:
Regards,

Joergen

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #186 on: 18 April, 2016, 02:44:39 pm »
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Re: Base training
« Reply #187 on: 19 April, 2016, 12:05:55 pm »
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #188 on: 19 April, 2016, 12:33:23 pm »
The workout I did which prompted this subthread has an aerobic decoupling of -4.5%.

Only an hour long, mind. But basically my HR dropped during the workout relative to power.

Did you start cold?

If you did, there's no surprise your HR dropped for a uniform power production.

In September, it wasn't the case, and a similar work-out had a +5% decoupling.

In February, it was 3.1%.

It's very unlikely that I will ever do a 4h AeT test on the trainer, to be honest.

zigzag

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Re: Base training
« Reply #189 on: 26 April, 2016, 12:39:36 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #190 on: 26 April, 2016, 12:47:25 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

I was doing 2*20 with 5 mins rest but found the second one very hard.

I then moved to Friel's 4*10 with 2 mins rest and found it mentally easier*

I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....


Rob

*although I bailed on the 4th interval last night as my HR was way too high at the end of the 3rd interval.

zigzag

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Re: Base training
« Reply #191 on: 26 April, 2016, 12:59:05 pm »
<...>
I'm currently in 2 minds about the Mersey Roads - go on the understanding that I may not achieve my best or pass this year and have a go next year.....

there is still time to prepare and sometimes i find myself in the flow (very rarely though!) despite the lack of preparation. your experience alone is worth a fair few miles!

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #192 on: 26 April, 2016, 01:12:29 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.

IME I found this psychologically better knowing that you had completed the session and had created a benchmark.

It's training, it ain't supposed to be easy! ;D

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #193 on: 26 April, 2016, 02:20:44 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

Following on from what Rob mentioned, don't cut short the interval. Turn it into 4*10 or 8*5 if need be. Extend the rest period if necessary but finish what you intended to do with respect the time spent in each zone.


Agreed - and this is something I have said elsewhere, but there was something horribly wrong last night in that I thought I might re-decorate the garage floor.   This was a session that I did twice last week, completing (sort of) happily each time.    I struggled to get through the 3rd interval last night, feeling worse then I had done in the last 5mins of each session last week.   Occasionally it's better to back off with a view to not compromising the quality of the rest of the weeks sessions.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Base training
« Reply #194 on: 26 April, 2016, 03:10:36 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #195 on: 26 April, 2016, 04:24:31 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!




LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #196 on: 26 April, 2016, 09:06:15 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins -

I started using Wattbikes once a week at our new bike shop.

They use British Cycling training plans and I definitely feel the benefits.

The main thing I notice when using Wattbikes is how superhuman the Pros are.  If you've never used power to train then you probably won't know what 475Watts feels like at 100 rpm.  I do*, and it's what Bradley Wiggins did for 55 minutes when he won the TT Worlds.  It's basically impossible.

*I am somewhere short of maintaining those numbers for 55 minutes.**

** About 54 minutes and 30 seconds short.

I think watts/kilo is a better comparison if you want like for like. Wiggo's power for the hour was 458 watts, bearing in mind this is only 8 watts less than my three minute effort the mind does boggle. However if you take his weight at the time, which IIRC was around the 75kg mark, gives a w/kg of 6 and a bit which is about right.

LMT

Re: Base training
« Reply #197 on: 26 April, 2016, 09:11:41 pm »
after a fair few sessions on a wattbike it appears there are no shortcuts for me that could make quick wins - only the painful interval sessions to gain fitness. normally, a quick win can be had by perfecting one's pedalling technique, i.e. smooth power delivery, l/r balance and equal angle of peak power.
had a go at 2x20 workout, but couldn't handle the pain and turned it into 2x10 instead, which still was bloody awful! :facepalm:
i need to find a way to smuggle in an electric fan into the gym to prevent me from overheating; i reckon that should reduce the heart rate by 5-10bpm and make the workouts more bearable.. just over 12 weeks left until mersey roads!!

The FTP test estimates your anaerobic threshold. However, most people will fall short for muscular endurance and thus cannot just go do a 2x20 at this level straight away. For example in the plan I'm on, the next 3 weeks have over-unders, they start off with 3x6 minutes, then they do 4x9 minutes, then 3x12. The total time around threshold is constant but the duration of the intervals increases each week. Then after a recovery week it switches to just below threshold, with 5x10, then 4x12, then 3x15. Note the slight drop in total duration at threshold as the intervals get longer.

Start off with shorter intervals and work your way up to 2x20 as suggested by others. Extend the recoveries if necessary. Attempting these type of workouts without moving air is unlikely to go well. I have an 18" floor standing fan which is working well for me.

This kind of training also relies on your aerobic base fitness to be good. For something like your Mersey Roads aerobic base is going to be very important. Hence your training week must include long, steady work as well. I was advised to spend 80% in this way, but I'm doing more variety. Of course, riding the Brevet Cymru this weekend will result in a lot of endurance zone work!

Sound advice, Friel recommends (out of 20 weeks) the first 12 weeks spent purely on base work and technique. For me, this was tempo, aerobic endurance, high cadence work and the odd sweet spot session.

zigzag

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Re: Base training
« Reply #198 on: 26 April, 2016, 09:21:47 pm »
thanks for the advice simonp, i will be easing into intervals starting with the shorter and working my way up to 2x20. are there any recommended training plans available for "proper" endurance racing? i've done quite a lot of searching and most recommend doing longer intervals at or near ftp level.

re the pros and w/kg - i managed 6w/kg for three minutes by giving it all and felt light-headed for the rest of the day.. to do this for almost an hour  :o

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #199 on: 27 April, 2016, 03:08:12 am »
w/kg isn't the be and end all. For a flat TT course it's more about w/CdA.