Author Topic: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread  (Read 9485 times)

rogerzilla

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Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« on: 29 August, 2015, 09:42:20 pm »
Story so far: saw an orange Twenty for a tenner from a bike recycling charity in Gloucester.  Looked a lot mankier in the flesh than it did on fleaBay (definite respray job)  and as I was dismantling it to go in the car the guy there spotted a massive hole in the seatstay which I'd just exposed by removing the rear rack and mudguards.  Looks as if someone tried a bit of welding.  So he offers me a different bike - a Raleigh Solitaire in this case, but it's merely a Twenty with a fuller chaincase, for nothing.  This one has been front-ended as the fork steerer is completely bent.  But...I knew I could get a new chrome fork for less than £15 with the correct length steerer and threading, so I took it.

Apart from a few nicks and some oxidised paint, the frame is beautiful in a deep burgundy colour.  The forks went straight in the bin and I checked the head tube since the loiwer cup had been hanging out (!) but it's fine - no crumpling anywhere and the calipers say the tube is still the correct ID and not ovalised.  So Raleigh knew how to design a sacrificial fork.

The wheels are a bit rusty but would probably scrub up.  However, I already have some good BMX size wheels (406mm diameter) which I want to use, so I can forget them.  The chainset is pristine and, on extracting the BB, it appears that the bike has never been ridden.  There are no bearing tracks on the races and the chain only has dusty congealed oil on it, no road dirt.  I reckon someone rode it into a wall five minutes into its first ride or it was damaged in storage somehow.

The brakes, bars and stem are probably saleable as I'm not going to use them.  I have a Tange 1" headset that's been kicking around for years, which I will use, and I'll fit an alloy stem and some riser bars.    Likewise, the original saddle and seatpost weigh about as much as a complete racing bike so they will be replaced with a 400mm 28.6 post and whatever saddle I find in the shed, probably the one from NSTN's old Brompton.

I mentioned that the wheels will be 406, not the factory 451 (USian Twenties often had the smaller BMX size) which gives a brake drop problem.  For the rear I have managed to find a very long drop 1080 clone with a reach of up to 108mm.  I will need 100mm!  The front is less of a problem as the new fork has V-brake bosses.  Drop bolts are not a great option as there will still be a mudguard clearance issue with most dual-pivot brakes - the steel mudguards are in very good condition and are painted to match the frame.  The biggest issue is going to be converting the rear brake to bottom-pull if it's not designed to be swappable between top- and bottom-pull.  It's always possible but may require adaptor kits and homebrew stuff.  The rear brake will have minimal power due to all that reach.  I have V-brake levers but will try to seek out the Shimano ones that can be changed between caliper pull and V-brake pull so front and rear brakes can have the correct pull but the levers will still be a matching pair.

The smaller wheels drop the bottom bracket by about an inch.  US riders report pedal grounding issues with 406 wheels.  To get round this (and to allow for the fact that the intended rider is currently only 4'6") I have found some 150mm cranks which will go onto the existing BB with new cotter pins.  I could go cotterless eventually but the chainguard may no longer fit and short cotterless cranks are stupidly expensive.

The Solitaire stickers were terribly naff but simply peeled off.  All the oxidised paint quickly cleaned back to new with Meguiar's ScratchX (amazing cutting compound, way gentler than T Cut).  I have some mid-70s Raleigh Twenty decals which I'll fit when the heavy stuff is complete, as I don't want to damage them with a carelessly-wielded headset spanner.  The colour seems virtually identical to Skoda Rosso Brunello so I might touch up the chips too.

Disappointingly the LBS no longer has a 1" head tube facing tool but they reckon the tube looks OK to press a headset straight on.  I'll see if they're right.  Twenties didn't have a top cup or ball bearing race - they had a plain nylon bushing (apparently to damp the steering, which was otherwise twitchy as the geometry was a bit challenged; presumably a lower-offset fork would have given toe overlap).

The bike is currently completely disassembled except for the LH crank arm, which is still attached to the BB axle and will require the cotter pin drilling out, since unlike the RH side, the pin refused to budge and just mushroomed, despite the use of heat, a pipe as an anvil and all the usual Sheldon tricks.  I could just get a replacement BB but an original Raleigh one in the 78mm width is rather expensive, prices being driven up by Chopper restorers.  So it'll have to be the drill.

Pics as it starts to come together.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #1 on: 30 August, 2015, 12:54:28 pm »
short cotterless cranks are stupidly expensive.

Stronglight Impact Kid - £42 from Spa? Down to 130mm, but only supplied with 44/34 chainrings.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #2 on: 01 September, 2015, 09:24:36 pm »
Gearing will probably be 46 x 20 to begin with because...er...that's what's there.  It happens to be about right for a 9-year old at 44" (low gear is therefore 33" and high gear is 59").

Turns out that the Twenty BB is slightly unusual, being 78mm width and with a 142mm axle (about 132mm in cotterless, because cottered cranks are flush with the crank face and cotterless ones certainly aren't).  So a cotterless conversion is rather more challenging than for other Raleighs, since no-one seems to mke a cotterless kit for that width BB.  To make things worse, the LH cotter pin isn't going to come out without drilling.  As backup in case this won't come apart*, I have found a 142mm axle and a cheapish Raleigh BB on eBay.

The forks turned up.  The threading and geometry are just what I wanted, and they even have threaded holes for the mudguard stays, but the crown is JIS.  No problem, I thought, I 'd acquired a JIS crown race for the Tange Passage I bought few years ago; it was going to go on this bike's predecessor, which also had a JIS crown**, but I never got around to it.  Found it easily enough...turned out the bastards sold me a 1 1/8" crown (30.0mm)  instead of a 1" JIS crown (27.0mm)!  So a JIS Tange Passage is on order from the USA, where it is four quid compared to twenty quid for a crappier Tange model over here.  I have the ISO version as well so I can make an ISO/JIS frankenheadset to fit.

Miss Z was told at the outset that this bike may not be ready until the new year  ;D

The handlebars have also arrived.  They are amusingly narrow, but Miss Z is 4'6". 

*I've even offered it to torslanda as a challenge

**Spacebadger will recall the frustration of me trying to seat an ISO crown race on JIS forks in his garage.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #3 on: 01 September, 2015, 09:47:30 pm »
Any possibility of reducing the BB shell width to 73 or 68mm? Angle-grinder rather than facing tool I'd have thought, and then maybe a threadless BB?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #4 on: 01 September, 2015, 09:51:16 pm »
No, there are twin bracing stays from the BB shell to the main tube which would be fairly close to the edge of a refaced BB, and probably kickstand clearance issues.  Yes, it has a brazed-on kickstand!
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #5 on: 01 September, 2015, 10:49:06 pm »
I'll take the "Cotter Pin Challenge" and will let you have the crank back intact. . .

Already working on the dark magic required!
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #6 on: 03 September, 2015, 05:00:04 pm »
Headset cups pressed.  The crown race will come from the JIS version of the same headset which is apparently now supplied with ISO cups too, since Tange found they fitted most JIS head tubes anyway.  Incidentally, Sheldon's headset database is wrong on ISO; cups are 30.2mm for a 30.0mm head tube.  JIS is 30.0mm for a 28.8mm head tube.  This bike will be an excuse to use my crown race setter, which has only been in action once in the last six years.

On the subject of Sheldon, he cautions against trying to reduce the width of a Twenty BB as the welds are, apparently, harder than a facing tool  :o
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #7 on: 06 September, 2015, 08:05:56 pm »
Bah.  The spare BB axle I bought turned up and it's bent.  I think a quarter of the stuff I've bought on fleaBay in the last month has been defective!  However, the legendary Derek at Old Bike Trader seems to have new ones; just checking with him as the markings on mine are very subtly different to his description, so I need the measurements.

EDIT: incredibly I found a 1972 Raleigh catalogue online with the part numbers, and Derek does have the correct RBA101.  Six quid from Derek (new old stock) or14 quid from fleaBay (used and rough).  Hmmm.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #8 on: 09 September, 2015, 10:08:55 pm »
I've a couple of folding twenties that I occasionally use for train journeys and general 'utility' stuff. Obviously slightly larger than a brommie but I think they have a much better ride.
Have you seen this Raleigh Twenty site?
Mine are Triumph Twenties, same bike, different badge. I replaced a lot of heavy steel (seat post & clamp, stem, bars, rims, etc.). I stayed with 451 size wheels, although tyre choices are limited. On one I've kept the steel cottered chainset, the other I've replaced it with a cotterless alloy chainset with a gnat's breath of clearance between it and the BB cup.
Some pics in the gallery here with a bit of description, in case it helps, and plenty of others in the gallery.
"Only the cyclist knows why the dog rides with its head out the window"

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #9 on: 09 September, 2015, 10:16:38 pm »
Forks, bar, stem and BB now fitted.  Cosmetics next (paint chips and decals) then it really needs the wheels and a few other bits from Miss Z's old bike, since setting up brakes is impossible without wheels.  The wheels should slot straight in as the new fork is ISO and the rear dropouts are just over 110mm apart, which is what the SA hub on the old bike is spaced for.

Sticking with 451 wheels is essential for adults, unless they're very short.  406 wheels drop the BB so much that there are severe pedal clearance issues unless you compensate by fitting 150mm cranks, which is what I've done (Miss Z the younger is 4'6").  On the other hand, 406 is what I have and tyre choice is very good.

The new cotter pins seem a good fit so I'll just squeeze them in using a vice and a socket.  Best practice seems to be to ensure the crank and axle are completely dry, but to use anti-seize on the pin itself.  This gives maximum friction between the crank and axle but allowes the wedge of the cotter to get really tight.  it also offers at least some prospect of removal at a later date!
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #10 on: 13 September, 2015, 08:40:46 pm »
Paint touched up.  Polish and decals tomorrow.  Trial fit of the wheels I built 6 years ago and still as good as new...well, they are 36h and only 20" so fairly nukeproof.  Chainline needs a tweak; can get an extra 1/8" by moving sprocket spacers.  It will be beautiful with the mudguards and chainguard.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #11 on: 14 September, 2015, 09:01:16 pm »
Front mudguard stays will need subtle reshaping to fit around the (Marathon 20 x 1.5", slightly wider than the 1 3/8" original) front tyre.  The rear brake, an Alhonga-made Dia-Compe 1080 clone, really does reach the 406 rim.  I think it's the only brake on the market that does; US folding Twenties, which also had the BMX size rim, had a Weinmann caliper of prodigious length but Weinmann are long gone.   Probably has very little power but that's no bad thing on a rear brake when the rider is a youngster*.  What Sheldon omits to mention about drop bolts is that they don't really work with mudguards, so it was a long caliper brake or V-brake bosses and a total respray of a bike with good paint.  Not a hard choice.

The AW rear hub, which I built six years ago from all the best bits in my spares box so is probably an amalgam of five different hubs, has had a couple of teaspoons of fresh oil and is gently seeping into a wad of kitchen towel.  The front hub was even easier; it's a SunTour XC Pro with the licensed WTB GreaseGard ports, so it just needed a couple of pumps from the grease gun.  I wish SunTour were still around in their original form; their stuff was much nicer than Shimano, even if it didn't quite shift the same.

* I don't think Rosie ever uses the rear brake anyway.  The front wheel and tyre, recycled from the [previous bike, had a fair bit of black aluminium grot from being ridden in the rain but the rear rim was pristine.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #12 on: 14 September, 2015, 09:57:12 pm »
Pics as it starts to come together.

Surely it's together enough now to warrant some pics?!
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #13 on: 15 September, 2015, 09:01:07 pm »
It's just missing a rear brake and gear cable now.  There is a problem to solve in that the P clip for the rear of the chaincase fouls the chain.  The chainline is very slightly different to factory spec and unfortunately the P clip goes exactly where the top run of the chain passes the chainstay, where there was only a hair's breadth clearance already.  So the P clip will need to go lower and I'll need to knock up a strut with two holes to carry the chaincase.  Hopefully I can find some alu strip in Homebase rather than trekking to B&Q.  Had to do a bit of metal bending on the mudguards, chaincase (which, from the scrapes I had to touch up, had probably never fitted right) and of course the mudguard stays.

The front brake cable looks a bit long because it has to cope with the stem at full extension and currently the stem is at its lowest.  The other cables will also have to have rather a lot of loopage at the front, for now at least.

I can ride this bike comfortably (OK, the 150mm cranks are a bit twiddly) with the seat and stem right up, but it cab also be ridden by a 4'6" 9 year old.  That's quite a range.

Pics at the weekend hopefully.  It does look as if it fell right out of the 1970s but someone replaced the heavy steel bits and all the white plastic  :sick:
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #14 on: 11 July, 2017, 02:53:18 pm »
Thread resurrection - did this ever get completed and pictures created?
I have a severe case of Twenty want after seeing pictures of such masterpieces as these:



which used to look like this:


If not a cool cruiser type then I reckon it would really suit an electric conversion too - space behind the seat tube for a battery.
There are loads on ebay for 40-80 quid, but I've experienced steel rims before - alloy ones would be required...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #15 on: 06 August, 2017, 11:59:51 am »
Oh yes, it all got done and then I put the original crankset back on because Miss Z has grown a bit!  Only annoyance now is that the rear brake is really, really weak because it's 100mm reach.  I plan to solve this by fitting a Duomatic hub as soon as I can find a brake cone or strip another one for spares.  I have a really nice Duomatic but some scammer has reassembled it with one incorrect part!
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #16 on: 10 August, 2017, 09:16:06 am »
That sounds good. Have you got any pictures?
I still have my twenty want - will see if I can find one locally...

Re: Rogerzilla's Raleigh Twenty thread
« Reply #17 on: 25 August, 2017, 09:06:37 am »
I semi-accidentally won one on eBay for ~20 quid. :)
Will see how much work it needs doing on it when I collect tomorrow. Plans are to ride it a little, make sure it fits in the back of my new car, strip it down and paint it, rebuild with bullhorn bars and maybe some nice wheels (I read somewhere you can fit 24" wheels in them) and a new BB and chainset (will need to investigate how to modify the BB shell).